Think of it this way, rather. My buddy Jerry sells used cars. I know he buys stuff and restores it just well enough so it'll run for a bit, beyond that he doesn't care. He basically puts the minimal effort needed to sell a product into it, which is usually a flashy new paint job, comfy seats and a nice motor sound. If the car breaks down when the warranty expires? He doesn't care. They usually do!

It's how his job works. Aside from that, Jerry's a total bro, always brings a small gift when he's invited to a party, or a crate of beer, and is generally pleasant company. I like Jerry. He's a great guy.

But I still think his business practises is selling refridgerators to eskimos and would never buy a car from him. I'm not insulting -him- when I say that. Truth be told, dude can sell **** for gold, he deserves some serious respect for that, but, I'd never buy.

They aren't being malicious in these actions they were making the best of having to retread on OW after the Beta because marketing likely thought it was the best move from the reception the beta was getting.

I agree with this. With the addition that I think the devs also fell into the dark pit of the Warhammer 40k universe: apathy. Like, the setting tends to grow very boring after some time, and I guess after 5 big books, it caught the devs to.

My buddy Jerry

That's the thing, the devs aren't your buddy in this case. Unless you work for FFG you also don't know the business inside and out. You're just insulting them.

ThenDoctor what's your skin in this game? Why do you leap to defend FFG devs who are never going to read this crap we write?

Calling them lazy may be an insult, but given the many, many cases of copy/paste from old games without checking to make sure they don't reference rules that don't exist... it's not exactly unfair.

Americans can be guilted into buying something by acting offended.

Noted. Thank you.

I have a question for the naysayers; and I promise I'm not trying to start something, I'm genuinely curious...

Are any of you actually playing this game?

If not, what is it exactly that motivates you to continue reading and posting to these forums?

As far as FFG games go, playing Only War and Rogue Trader on and off actually. What we do in our chaos and inquisitorial games has very little to do with the core product anymore. They required a lot of houseruling. in hindsight we may have been better off going with shadowrun or Cthulu in the latter case. Less work for something investigative.

ThenDoctor what's your skin in this game? Why do you leap to defend FFG devs who are never going to read this crap we write?

Calling them lazy may be an insult, but given the many, many cases of copy/paste from old games without checking to make sure they don't reference rules that don't exist... it's not exactly unfair.

Because the last time I spoke to an FFG dev he/she stated they read all the threads. Because of basic human decency and seeing insulting for no reason ticks me off. Death didn't call them lazy, he insinuated they were insulting the playerbase.

No dog in the fight so to speak more than anything else that I tend to enjoy as a past time

They do copy paste, they don't proof read, and they rarely if ever errata. That's shoddy business and bad practice. They aren't perfect.

Curious who said i was guilted, or thinking Americans can be guilted into doing much of anything. I seem to always see the insult of we're pigheaded and never help anyone unless we're acting as world police.

As far as FFG games go, playing Only War and Rogue Trader on and off actually. What we do in our chaos and inquisitorial games has very little to do with the core product anymore. They required a lot of houseruling. in hindsight we may have been better off going with shadowrun or Cthulu in the latter case. Less work for something investigative.

Are you utilizing anything at all from 2nd Edition Dark Heresy or are you houseruling from 1st?

ThenDoctor what's your skin in this game? Why do you leap to defend FFG devs who are never going to read this crap we write?

Calling them lazy may be an insult, but given the many, many cases of copy/paste from old games without checking to make sure they don't reference rules that don't exist... it's not exactly unfair.

I saw Tim Huckelbery today viewing this very topic. Around 7 hours ago. How's that?

I have a question for the naysayers; and I promise I'm not trying to start something, I'm genuinely curious...

Are any of you actually playing this game?

If not, what is it exactly that motivates you to continue reading and posting to these forums?

I play WH40k RPG pretty regularly on another forum. I recently wrapped up running a long-running OW game (which, funnily enough was OW rules with DH's setting, started way before they announced DH2). I'm going to be playing in another DH2 game starting some time this month

ThenDoctor what's your skin in this game? Why do you leap to defend FFG devs who are never going to read this crap we write?

Calling them lazy may be an insult, but given the many, many cases of copy/paste from old games without checking to make sure they don't reference rules that don't exist... it's not exactly unfair.

I saw Tim Huckelbery today viewing this very topic. Around 7 hours ago. How's that?

Hey Tim, how do you feel about the well-supported accusations the design team just wholesale copied their previous game and called it DH2? Comments on the gross encounter imbalance in the intro adventure?

I play WH40k RPG pretty regularly on another forum. I recently wrapped up running a long-running OW game (which, funnily enough was OW rules with DH's setting, started way before they announced DH2). I'm going to be playing in another DH2 game starting some time this month

Hey Tim, how do you feel about the well-supported accusations the design team just wholesale copied their previous game and called it DH2? Comments on the gross encounter imbalance in the intro adventure?

You should join the PbP in the DH2 fourm, the largest thread. We lost a couple players recently.

Tim, from what I understand, only reads them but rarely if ever comments. I don't think devs are allowed to be very active in the forum. However "wholesale" really?

We tried, originally, but eventually discarded a lot of it for simpler, more effective designs. For example, we tossed aptitudes and base cost for skills on characteristic value. So if you're naturally predisposed towards a task, it's easier to learn. Characteristic cost is set for everyone, as well as talent cost.

We incorporated the action point system from the first beta and fixed it so it works. It needed minor tweaking, mostly on the weapons tables.

We originally went with DH2's weapon values. We then read the weapon fluff and adjusted them considerably in lethality. We kept the toughness soak, because if you have the stat, may as well use it, but added that weapon pen counts against it as well. Added bonus is, it keeps shock weaponry a nonlethal disabler.

We ditched hit points. Instead, we use a wound system similar to TDE4's, where injuries are based on your TB and have a set effect (-5 to phys characteristics, 3 injuries on one location put that one out of comission). It's easily memorised.

We're perusing some of Inquisitor's combat mechanics and modifiers. Voting wether they'll go in or out will happen this month when everyone#s actually read them.

It's perhaps accurate to say yes, we started with dark heresy, but what we play now has little to do with it anymore.

As far as FFG games go, playing Only War and Rogue Trader on and off actually. What we do in our chaos and inquisitorial games has very little to do with the core product anymore. They required a lot of houseruling. in hindsight we may have been better off going with shadowrun or Cthulu in the latter case. Less work for something investigative.

Have you tried to look at Eclipse Phase? It was quite helpful when we revised the old Beta.

Have you tried to look at Eclipse Phase? It was quite helpful when we revised the old Beta.

He directly mentions this system in one of his earlier posts.

As far as FFG games go, playing Only War and Rogue Trader on and off actually. What we do in our chaos and inquisitorial games has very little to do with the core product anymore. They required a lot of houseruling. in hindsight we may have been better off going with shadowrun or Cthulu in the latter case. Less work for something investigative.

Have you tried to look at Eclipse Phase? It was quite helpful when we revised the old Beta.

Yes, and it's dead sexy. My players aren't done reading yet, though

Ok, that answers my question. I was under the mistaken impression that you weren't utilizing it at all; which just left me wondering why you were so invested in these discussions.

I think I'm well within my rights to call this a piss poor job at this point. The typical fanboy mewling of "a poor opinion of teh product is insulting teh devs!" makes me less and less predisposed to be nice, or even remotely polite about this.

Call it what you want, I'm simply tired of all the haters mewling that they don't like the game for whatever reason. I don't see a discussion here, it's just a one-sided WAAAA I HATE THIS GAME. This being the third thread. Most of the reasons given are either just plainly blown out of proportion, wrong, or what could have been but isn't. A very minor part are fair arguments, but I'll have to use a shovel to dig for those at the bottom of a large pool filled with bile.

I don't even agree with all of the criticisms that the reviewer is making (particularly complaining about fail-colytes on one hand and complaining about the influence system and new talents allowing easy access to powerful abilities on the other). However, it is nice to see a pretty thorough review of the system's presentation and actual implementation in gameplay. I can't remember, but didn't FFG start the characters in the 1st beta with Rogue Trader-level characteristics and later knock them back down to DH-level?

For all the people tired of hearing complaints about the game, what else is there to really talk about? The rules are old and well-tread. All that is out is the core book. The new Dark Heresy just isn't very exciting to talk about, other than pointing out its flaws and wondering why they have been ignored for dozens of splat books and other game lines, an now in a second edition.

Think of it this way, eithe FFG listened to the majority of its fanbase and that fanbase is revealed as wanting things to just stay mostly the same, even if major problems never get fixed. Or FFG didn't listen to a fanbase wanting them to dig in and design a great new edition. So either the fanbase is to blame, and thus the minority fans want to argue with them to change their mind. Or, FFG is to blame and the hope is that if people complain loudly enough they'll listen this time.

All of these critics are treating FFG with kid gloves. Know why? Because they haven't even gone for the obvious issue of FFG selling books that fall apart in days for 60 bucks a pop. I think myself and others are willing to give FFG the benefit of a doubt on that, but they honestly have done badly in the rules enough times to deserve criticism.

I think I'm well within my rights to call this a piss poor job at this point. The typical fanboy mewling of "a poor opinion of teh product is insulting teh devs!" makes me less and less predisposed to be nice, or even remotely polite about this.

Call it what you want, I'm simply tired of all the haters mewling that they don't like the game for whatever reason. I don't see a discussion here, it's just a one-sided WAAAA I HATE THIS GAME. This being the third thread. Most of the reasons given are either just plainly blown out of proportion, wrong, or what could have been but isn't. A very minor part are fair arguments, but I'll have to use a shovel to dig for those at the bottom of a large pool filled with bile.

It's like that because you keep shitposting about "hating" something at the slightest notion of criticism. The reaction is gradually more acerbic. Prior to your posts in the other threads about how even the slightest criticism was dismissively viewed as "hating" and your repeated bashing of people holding a legit mechanics discussion, I probably would have said the reviewer's tone was over the top and the bias was a terrible thing.

At this point, I think he's being too mild because clearly he needs to phrase things drastically to get the point across to certain people.

I think there is little good to be said about DH2 unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong, the system is good (I enjoy playing it) but it's good because OW was good and DH2 took it over largely unchanged.

Each previous game was a rather significant evolution from the previous:

-RT cleaned up a lot of the balance mess in DH1 and added space combat rules.

-DW built on the RT rules system and added Space Marines (probably the most iconic group in the wh40k universe).

-BC was a revolution, solving many system issues and moving away from the class-based system.

-OW offered a revamp of BC's classless system.

DH2 on the other hand fell short of expectations by bringing very little new.

I think I'm well within my rights to call this a piss poor job at this point. The typical fanboy mewling of "a poor opinion of teh product is insulting teh devs!" makes me less and less predisposed to be nice, or even remotely polite about this.

Call it what you want, I'm simply tired of all the haters mewling that they don't like the game for whatever reason. I don't see a discussion here, it's just a one-sided WAAAA I HATE THIS GAME. This being the third thread. Most of the reasons given are either just plainly blown out of proportion, wrong, or what could have been but isn't. A very minor part are fair arguments, but I'll have to use a shovel to dig for those at the bottom of a large pool filled with bile.

It's like that because you keep shitposting about "hating" something at the slightest notion of criticism. The reaction is gradually more acerbic. Prior to your posts in the other threads about how even the slightest criticism was dismissively viewed as "hating" and your repeated bashing of people holding a legit mechanics discussion, I probably would have said the reviewer's tone was over the top and the bias was a terrible thing.

At this point, I think he's being too mild because clearly he needs to phrase things drastically to get the point across to certain people.

Hardly at the "slightest notion of criticism", I tend to respond when things become pointless bashing.

The game is not perfect and I never said it was.

That said, I might have overreacted in my previous post, but that was because of your earlier overreaction.

Let's keep things civil.

I don't see how this is an actual balanced review.

The author was in the Beta before and is clearly in favor of having kept the changes. That's a fair point of view, but just because FFG did the rewinding doesn't mean that the game itself is bad.

Is it unbalanced because you don't agree with the conclusion? That's the thrust of your post. You concede he's made a fair point of view, but you crticise him for a lack of balance anyway. I'm not sure that's reasonable.

A lot of issues that aren't issues to begin with.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/124885-soooooooo-howd-dark-heresy-turn-out/

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121142-what-happened-to-2nd-edition/

I guess another upcoming spin of the record is incoming.

So he's claiming that certain combinations in the character creation process are absurd? Yeah well, the player who plays this character still has to explain his choices. If he can't, then that's on the player for being absurd, not the system.

"You can still roll a Techpriest Desperado"

Having a Adeptus Mechanicus background doesn't necessary mean you're a Techpriest.

Page 53:

Others, such as forge labourers or

adept minions, have lesser functions.

Most aspire to one day join the Tech-Priesthood, so that they may better

serve the Omnissiah. Rarely, some

might reject the Machine God and seek

lives elsewhere, but still retain more skills

and familiarity with technology than

almost anyone else in the Imperium.

Perhaps the author should actually read the book first.

"In theory, this allows for a classless system where everyone can eventually get everything."

FFG never claimed that everyone can eventually get everything.

So he hates aptitudes, well, I love them.

If people insist on this, we'll pick his review apart piece by piece.

Seriously, you are going to traduce his review, fairly long as it is, by dismissing the author on the baseless assumption he hasn't read it? That's pretty lazy dude!

There are issues with the review (as there are most reviews) to be sure: I think he oversells the problems inherent in the system. But his appraisal of the problems with DH2 are on the money IMO.

Saying that picking a Mechanicus background doesn't mean you're a Tech Priest is sort of the point he's making: that the background is nothing more than a phrase. It doesn't confer anything unique or illustrative of being part of that organisation, whether or not as a Tech Priest or a Secutor or whatever. At least the classes and packages from 1e and it's supplements had that sense of character. Whether they will produce similar things for 2e remains to be seen, but the point is made in the review that not providing this in the 2e is regressive.

What does it mean to be a Mechanicus Sage as opposed to a Mechanicus Desperado other than a different ability?

You may love aptitudes, which is entirely your choice, but they are not efficient and don't really fix the problem they exist to solve. The cost of talents/skills/characteristics is so onerous for characters that don't have the right aptitudes that it's not worth bothering with. Either limit choices, through classes, or don't bother at all. Aptitudes are a messy fudge, not a compromise. They can't be changed either.

Did this guy actually read the rule book or just skim it? Twice he mentions that Intimidate can only be used with Strength. Page 96 not only states that skills can be used with alternate characteristics where appropriate, it specifically gives Intimidate as an example!

I don't think one slight error (and he isn't technically wrong) is indicative of having not read it at all. It's 400+ pages foer gods sake!

-Some of the material is copy paste, as always there's iteration where they wanted it

The problem with the copypasta is that it refers to stuff that isn't in DH2e. If that isn't lazy development, what is?

The problem with the copypasta is that it refers to stuff that isn't in DH2e. If that isn't lazy development, what is?

I didn't say it wasn't lazy or cruddy, I in fact said that it was in one of my following posts.

These threads are just tiring at this point, they keep rehashing the same issues that the same people have over and over. I really can't wait for the adventure supplement to come out, at least then you'll have something else rag on.