Hey guys what's u....

Okay I'm out, too much nerd rage.

Edit: I guess it wasn't as bad as I first thought it to be. I just went straight to the last posts.

I dunno, my finger is sore from scrolling past them walls of text.

I wish this wouldn't happen everytime people try to compare real world politics and the imperium...

I think these types of discussion are awesome just because you can see how Inquisitors/Ecclesiarchy/Administratum figures would act in correspondence to each other.

You mean them always bitching at each other at cross purposes?

.....

Correctamundo.

@Visitor Q: I don't want sensitivity , I want intellectual honesty and respect, and you are still delivering neither. You can't declare that the conversation is about something other than what it's about just by claiming that your (false) facts are opinions, and your assertion that I am unwilling to consider other people's perspectives when your stance is exactly as unchanged as mine is dishonest and hypocritical. Seriously, all I'm asking of you is that you have enough respect to not lie to my face about what I, myself have said.

This disagreement has absolutely nothing to do with setting details. Every time you have accused me of being ignorant of some setting detail it has been because of some misunderstanding on your part (and at this stage, it seems likely that these misunderstandings are willful). I talk about the Imperium's backwards law enforcement techniques and you respond about their advanced technology . I bring up the Inquisition and other anti-Chaos forces' limited numbers and you respond by naming a few (but not actually all) of those other organizations with similarly limited numbers and act as though you've made some kind of counterargument. I post a few policies in response to specific questions and you not only completely ignore that this list of policies is an incomplete list based on questions you asked and does not address the Imperium's failings, you also claim that they are identical to Imperium policies to which they bear only a passing resemblance.

There has been exactly one lore error in this conversation, and it was yours: your list of vectors for Chaos corruption left out psykers completely even though they are the oldest, most well-known, and most common one. That's not normally something I would make a big deal about, because there is a lot of 40k lore and it's easy to forget things (although something like "daemons can contact/possess psykers" is referenced often enough that I wouldn't expect that particular detail to be forgotten, but whatever), but you won't shut up about lore mistakes you claim I've made but haven't bothered to actually point out beyond those based on misreadings of my arguments. You are at best thoughtlessly, and at worst outright maliciously trying to attack my reputation instead of my argument by making vague references to a lack of relevant knowledge without sitting down and actually making an argument about which relevant knowledge is missing from my arguments.

The entirety of my disagreement with Imperial methods comes from their information blackouts and their 12th century approach to law enforcement. Do you deny that these happen in the lore? The reason I disagree is because they are completely incapable of responding to Chaos cults created by psyker possession and a clumsy means of preventing other Chaos corruption vectors which are at best only as effective and far more costly than more finessed policies. Do you deny that psykers can be a vector for Chaos corruption? Because if you do not deny that the Imperium uses information blackouts and 12th century law enforcement techniques (noting here that the latter is a paraphrasing of your own statement) and you do not deny that daemons can contact mortals and start cults via psyker contact then all relevant lore is correct. Never mind that I actually have a quite extensive knowledge of the 40k setting. This isn't 40k lore trivia night. There are only a small handful of relevant lore details, and everything else is unimportant.

Pretending to be nice while still showing a condescending disregard for my knowledge of the setting is not actually being nice. It's being passive-aggressive. Cut it out and either show some actual respect for my time and knowledge or just leave . I seriously don't care that you don't have enough interest in debating how sensible or not a fictitious government is, and I also don't care that you don't know enough about investigations to understand the implications and ultimate consequences of the Inquisition's methods, but when your response to losing interest in the conversation is to make vague accusations about my ability to have the conversation at all and stubbornly refusing to back those accusations up, that gets on my nerves.

Christ. I'm pretty sure they used to teach this in schools. Public discourse would hopefully be improved if they hadn't stopped.

Inquisitor Q: You shouldn't worry about being condesending. And thanks for agreeing with me.

Lupa: Saying Inquisitor Q is condesending is a bit hypotritical don't you think? I mean about making an entire post kind of attacking him even when he apoligised, show him some respect. Being not nice is is agressive-agressive.

Iquisitor Q: I forgot about 1984...

Inquisitor Q: You shouldn't worry about being condesending. And thanks for agreeing with me.

Lupa: Saying Inquisitor Q is condesending is a bit hypotritical don't you think? I mean about making an entire post kind of attacking him even when he apoligised, show him some respect. Being not nice is is agressive-agressive.

Iquisitor Q: I forgot about 1984...

1984 works as a great template for day to day life on some Imperial world's in my opinion. If you can induce that cold soul shredding chill that the book can inspire your grimdark enough I think. Lovecraftean cosmic horror is of course another classic area of inspiration

I'm not really sure what aspect of Grimdark storytelling Rogue Trader would incapsulate. Theres a song called the Mariners Revenge (I think) that could serve as good inspiration for RT I think.

Thanks for that. Remember hate hour? Yeah I reckon the Imperium has something like that, except instead of some sheep-faced idiot they have cow-faced idiot. Its a big difference.

I think these types of discussion are awesome just because you can see how Inquisitors/Ecclesiarchy/Administratum figures would act in correspondence to each other.

Inq: HERESY!

Ecc. and Admin: But we haven't said anything yet!

Inq: Oh right, ahem.. Let us start our anual meeting with a prayer. padré?

Ecc. Oh Imperator we beseech thee, have mercy on the ecclisiarchy, amen!

Admin: Oi! Mind praying for ALL of us father?

Ecc: Oh sorry I forgot you where here aswell .

Admin: (to Inquisitor) See? See? it's the age of Apostacy all over again!

Ecc : BLASPHEMY!

Inq: Don't you mean "heresy", father?

Ecc: I tought i'd change it up for a bit.

Admin: Dont change things! it upsets people!

Inq: Right, let's get this meeting underway, shall we?

Admin: HERESY!

Ecc and Inq: What?

Admin: I tought I'd say it for once.

Ecc; Imperator give me strenght!

Inq: Look, are you two done?

Admin: I can't say.

Ecc: I can't say.

Inq: HERTICS! Both of you!

Admin, Ecc: What did we say?

It's fairly normal to get into a heated argument with a single poster. Perhaps even two. But if that number just keeps climbing up the longer you speak, at some point you ought to start asking yourself if really everyone else just happens to be so lazy/stupid as to not understand the great wisdom you're posting, or if .. just perhaps .. the fault lies in your posts.

All depending on just how much one is convinced in the infallibility of their opinion, obviously.

Lupa: Saying Inquisitor Q is condesending is a bit hypotritical don't you think? I mean about making an entire post kind of attacking him even when he apoligised, show him some respect. Being not nice is is agressive-agressive.

No, it's not hypocritical. I'm not condescending to anyone. **** right I'm angry , because he's being rude and dismissive, and now all of you are doing the same because 1) I disagree with popular opinion and 2) I don't like being condescended to. Is it seriously too much to ask that people who have a conversation with me actually have a conversation with me instead of ignoring what I write to attack strawmen, or to (baselessly) attack my knowledge of the subject? Is the limit of your maturity seriously that you are going to attack anyone who thinks differently, dismiss everything I have to say because it doesn't match your predetermined conclusions, directly insult my competence, and then when I demand you justify that accusation act like my being angry at your blatant rudeness and dishonesty is somehow unprovoked? People get mad when you insult them, this should not be a surprise to you, and disguising your insult with an apology doesn't help.

I'm not demanding an apology or agreement, but I sure as Hell am demanding that you stop acting like a bunch of schoolchildren smugly shielding themselves from honest discussion because you're at the cool kids table and that means you don't have to listen or show any genuine respect to those unpopular nerds. No amount of popularity makes an opinion or a person beyond criticism, no amount of criticism for popular opinions makes it okay to act like a jackass, and an apology half-heartedly tacked on to baseless accusations is completely insincere and meaningless.

Right, so. Back to the topic. My first DW campaign is coming up and the first mission is going to take place on the watch fortress. I'll have them take the apocryphon oath in front of the DW vault, go in and get some stuff and when they come out the watch commander is like: "Meh. I'll take this to the chamber of vigilance. An arch magos is giving a symposium on tyranid vanguard organisms in the bestiarium. Go to it, you might learn something." And when they get there the lights go dark and two massive holoiths spring to life and the image of an arch magos with big puffs of white hair coming out the side of his head says "GENTLEMEN. I HAVE CREATED THIS THING!". And its a purestrain genestealer with a servitor head attached to it. At which point a rather confused xenos inquisitor says "What is it?" And the arch magos says "I DONT KNOW. STAND OVER THERE." At which point a las rifle raises up out of the servitor head and shoots the inquisitor dead in the face. This being an imperial flashlight however, it has almost no effect. "IT WORKS. HAHAHAHA. I AM ONE CAN SHORT OF A SIX PACK!" At that point the lights and the hololiths all die, leaving the room in complete darkness. "THE LIGHTS, WHO'S HERE?" A scuttling sound is heard. When the lights kick in a moment later the genestealer is gone. "THAT THING I CREATED! ITS GONE! WHO COULD HAVE PENETRATED MY IN IMPENETRABLE FORTRESS?" A flame thrower turret decends from the ceiling to light the arch magos on fire, at which point he shouts "MY HAIR HEATER!" A visibly stunned crowd is slowly recovering from the sheer stupidity of the spectacle when magnitude 100 genestealer horde bursts in and starts killing everyone. When the battle is over the hunt begins. A short while later they are called back to the bestiarum and investigate what happened. Turns out one of the inquisitors wanted to make a point about keeping large amounts of dangerous xenos laying around.

I'd give it a 20 on the grimdark scale, as alot of the people gathered died gruesome deaths while the battle brothers sat back and pretty much took potshots at the horde.

Lupa: I sure as hell am demanding you to stop acting as some stuck-up teenager who needs a ceremonial dinner, a two hour grovel and about thirty gifts just to appease. Visitor (I prefer Inquisitor) Q may have been rude but seriously, you send walls of text that are, guess what? Rude. And yet you cry that people have been rude to you. If you want respect you have to stop viciously attacking everyone just because in your eyes they have been 'dismissive'. Maybe its best if you stop posting (I'm not forcing you) because I can guess the next post you send is going to say something rude to me. Yay.

Right, so. Back to the topic. My first DW campaign is coming up and the first mission is going to take place on the watch fortress. I'll have them take the apocryphon oath in front of the DW vault, go in and get some stuff and when they come out the watch commander is like: "Meh. I'll take this to the chamber of vigilance. An arch magos is giving a symposium on tyranid vanguard organisms in the bestiarium. Go to it, you might learn something." And when they get there the lights go dark and two massive holoiths spring to life and the image of an arch magos with big puffs of white hair coming out the side of his head says "GENTLEMEN. I HAVE CREATED THIS THING!". And its a purestrain genestealer with a servitor head attached to it. At which point a rather confused xenos inquisitor says "What is it?" And the arch magos says "I DONT KNOW. STAND OVER THERE." At which point a las rifle raises up out of the servitor head and shoots the inquisitor dead in the face. This being an imperial flashlight however, it has almost no effect. "IT WORKS. HAHAHAHA. I AM ONE CAN SHORT OF A SIX PACK!" At that point the lights and the hololiths all die, leaving the room in complete darkness. "THE LIGHTS, WHO'S HERE?" A scuttling sound is heard. When the lights kick in a moment later the genestealer is gone. "THAT THING I CREATED! ITS GONE! WHO COULD HAVE PENETRATED MY IN IMPENETRABLE FORTRESS?" A flame thrower turret decends from the ceiling to light the arch magos on fire, at which point he shouts "MY HAIR HEATER!" A visibly stunned crowd is slowly recovering from the sheer stupidity of the spectacle when magnitude 100 genestealer horde bursts in and starts killing everyone. When the battle is over the hunt begins. A short while later they are called back to the bestiarum and investigate what happened. Turns out one of the inquisitors wanted to make a point about keeping large amounts of dangerous xenos laying around.

I'd give it a 20 on the grimdark scale, as alot of the people gathered died gruesome deaths while the battle brothers sat back and pretty much took potshots at the horde.

As for the scenario, it kind of feels more like a parody adventure, which is funny but obviously pretty low on the grim dark scale.

@Lupa; How come you put 'cool kids table' in italics? I don't think that part needed emphasis in the same way that the other words did. Just want to make sure I'm getting the tone right when I read it back to myself. Thanks.

@Robin Graves. And you just know there's a captured alien or something in the middle that they should be interrogating thinking 'what about me?'.

Elevator to Exterminatus... nice use of words. The adventure does seem low on the Grimdark scale but sometimes a bit of comic relief is good for people.

Robin Graves: Don't forget the Chaos Tainted apprentice who spouts a third arm.

Visitor Q: What country do you think would be most vulnerable to Chaos if it existed? Even though I have addressed this question to Visitor Q anyone can answer it.

Elevator to Exterminatus... nice use of words. The adventure does seem low on the Grimdark scale but sometimes a bit of comic relief is good for people.

Robin Graves: Don't forget the Chaos Tainted apprentice who spouts a third arm.

Visitor Q: What country do you think would be most vulnerable to Chaos if it existed? Even though I have addressed this question to Visitor Q anyone can answer it.

Belgium!

I dunno, chaos can be very subtle and corrupt the great as well as the evil. So it can be anywhere. i'd say the USA, lots of cults there. Or Japan: you don't come up with hundered of weird monsters without some chaos influence...

Elevator to Exterminatus... nice use of words. The adventure does seem low on the Grimdark scale but sometimes a bit of comic relief is good for people.

Robin Graves: Don't forget the Chaos Tainted apprentice who spouts a third arm.

Visitor Q: What country do you think would be most vulnerable to Chaos if it existed? Even though I have addressed this question to Visitor Q anyone can answer it.

Belgium!

I dunno, chaos can be very subtle and corrupt the great as well as the evil. So it can be anywhere. i'd say the USA, lots of cults there. Or Japan: you don't come up with hundered of weird monsters without some chaos influence...

Of course... Now I know how Poirot solves the mystery... **** psyker...

In hindsight it's so obvious! He does go on about "the little grey cells" a lot. He's talking about his mutant brain psy powers!

Lupa: I sure as hell am demanding you to stop acting as some stuck-up teenager who needs a ceremonial dinner, a two hour grovel and about thirty gifts just to appease.

So you're saying you want me to stop demanding an apology? Well I have good news for you, Misha! If you scroll up, you will notice that I went back and time and acceded to your demands before you made them. The limit of what I'm asking of you people is to respond to the words I am actually saying rather than the ones you are putting in my mouth, and accusations you make of my making any demand past that is yet more libelous bull that I have every right to be angry about. As your latest post has neatly demonstrated, you, at the very least, still have not managed to talk to me rather than to a strawman, so yes, you can expect me to go on being angry at you until you rise to this extremely low standard. I'm aware that I'm not being extremely approachable right now, but I'm not under any obligation to politely eat up the bull you're throwing at me just because you're part of a majority opinion. If you want me to stop, you can either start responding to things I have actually said rather than things you have made up or else you can just stop responding altogether. Either one would work, and neither requires any amount of groveling or even an apology.

Pay attention to this bolded sentence. Read it very carefully, because you've managed to completely miss the point of what I've said multiple times in the past, at one point claiming that what I've said is literally the exact opposite of what I actually said, so read this next sentence as many times as it takes for you to be absolutely sure that you have actually understood me: You will never be able to have a conversation with me or anyone else who is even a little bit different from you if you only respond to what you assume we mean and not what we actually said.

@Visitor Q:

"How come you put 'cool kids table' in italics? I don't think that part needed emphasis in the same way that the other words did. Just want to make sure I'm getting the tone right when I read it back to myself. Thanks."

The idea behind that was to ironically emphasize the "importance" of conformity for the sake of popularity. In retrospect, it probably would've been more clear to use quotes rather than italics. Oops. In any case, it is principally directed towards the assertion that because my position is in the minority I am somehow morally wrong for defending it, that I deserve to be misrepresented, or that I have no right to demand people back up their accusations against me.

@All: A good number of you seem to be under the impression that I value being liked by a community over being respected by a community. Obviously I'd like to have both, but if the option is between having my ideas dismissed and my reputation as a relevant conversant attacked any time I dare voice a minority opinion or having people be angry at me for refusing to put up with this kind of bull, I will take the latter. I will spend any amount of social capital to get you to extend the basic decency of responding to what I have actually said and to back up your accusations or counterarguments, so if you want me to stop making a big deal out of this you don't have to apologize, you don't have to agree with me or even drop/change the subject, but you do have to extend me some basic respect and intellectual honesty. This is not an unreasonable demand and I am not going to sit and take it while you refuse to give me the same basic respect you'd give to someone backing a majority opinion.

You will never be able to have a conversation with me or anyone else who is even a little bit different from you if you only respond to what you assume we mean and not what we actually said.

That would go a lot better if you were willing to attempt to explain/rephrase for clarity, or clarify what you meant . Which you have effectively said there is no point in doing or otherwise refused.

If you won't clarify when asked to do so, or when you perceive a miscommunication has occurred, then don't complain when people are responding to what their interpretation of what you said was, rather than what your intended message was.

-

-

That being said ... on the topic at hand ... Chaos is insidious ... and while the Imperium isn't working well, and is effectively slowly killing itself, it is also worth noting that the Imperium-as-it-is is not the Imperium-that-it-was-supposed-to-be. Look at when the Horus Heresy began and when the Emperor got taken out of the picture - the Heresy kicked off during a transitional period, and then the Emperor got taken out of the picture right after.

Someone said that daemons should be called warp xenos instead of daemons, Per one of the early Horus Heresy books - before the existence of Chaos became known, and the existence of daemons became known, an encounter with a daemon haunting a fortress some Astartes were dispatched to garrison took place, and the daemon was described as an extradimensional xenos native to the Immaterium by the remembrancer attached to them.

This was expected...

Lupa: You never were demanding an apology if you remember what you wrote. In fact you were acting as if it wasn't good enough that Visitor Q apoligised. No offense but a strawman is more communicative than you. All you keep saying is to respond what you actually say. So what do you actually say? Do you even remember? In what cases have we 'put words into your mouth'? Please explain what you mean when you post things because as javcs said its a bit hard know what you are saying. This starting to sound way too much like we are (or I am) like a corrupt capitalist fat-cat and you are the small voice of freedom. Its hard to have conversation with a person who keeps thinking that we aren't having a proper conversation because said person expects us to respond to what the person actually says because most people don't even know what the person was actually saying. By the way,scrolling up won't get me any other posts.

javcs: Xenos or aliens are such a vague term, compassing many things. In fact daemons could be classified as aliens. This wouldn't stop their ability to corrupt for there are many xeno races which rely on corruption and infiltration. In fact the daemons would have an easier time because they are no longer taboo taboo. They are just another xeno race. And who trades with xenos? Rogue Traders do. Because daemons are no longer 'the' enemy Rogue Traders would trade with them and in such corrupt themselves.

Indeed, that's part of the flaw in calling daemons a dangerous form of "warp xenos" - it makes them less anathema to the uneducated, or even just someone who hasn't made an effort to learn the differences. Besides, there are actual warp xenos that aren't what we think of when we think "daemon". I mean, they're still nasty and all, but they are, by and large, not on the same level as daemons (Dark Eldar warp hounds, Enslavers, etc) in terms of what their threat to humanity is and what they represent.

I mean, sure, abhor the xenos as a stand in ... but really, what packs more punch - abhor the (warp) xenos when certain xenos are tolerated (Jokaero, minor races that can be safely enslaved to usefully serve the Imperium, or species that can pose absolute no conceivable threat) and even occasionally allied with in common cause (usually Eldar, sometimes Tau), or abhor the daemon?

And because if they do count as warp xenos imagine how many classifications are needed. Theres those bloody maniac warp xenos, then there are those strange pestilence xenon and the list goes on.

@javcs: You'll notice I was entirely willing to clarify when Visitor Q asked. My refusals to clarify are mostly directed towards Misha, because he's demonstrated an unwillingness to actually read my posts. Allow me to direct you to the specific problem. I made this post in response to Visitor Q's argument that shutting down the internet was similar to Imperium policies:

No, I'm suggesting shutting down the internet if and only if it can be puppeted at-will by extradimensional monsters that want to eat our souls. The problem with the internet is not that it's a means of rapidly transmitting information, but that Chaos can edit it at-will to send mis information. In other words, if the internet actually serves its purpose after Chaos shows up we need to keep that thing online because it is our only chance of actually finding Chaos cultists before it's too late.

At this stage I have made it very explicitly clear the very important differences between a strategy of inhibiting all knowledge about Chaos and inhibiting Chaos' ability to spread misinformation. Misha responds with this:

You did mention the fact of shutting down the Internet but thats like the Imperiums blackout you keep mentioning.

This makes it obvious he hasn't actually read the paragraph he claims to be responding to, because the response to it is literally just to copy/paste something I've already written. I could've just posted an actual quote of the paragraph he claimed to be responding to as my only response, but instead I directed him to actually read my posts before responding, something which is apparently a really steep demand. A few posts later he writes this:

Reading your posts is a pre-requisite for me to go to sleep.

Believe it or not, this does not improve my confidence that he is actually reading to the posts he claims to be responding to. When someone demonstrates this clearly that the miscommunication is rooted in their unwillingness to actually read what I'm writing, it is hopeless to try and solve the problem with more writing that will be ignored. Indeed, Misha seems unwilling to consider longform posts at all (but is still quite happy to respond to these posts, regardless of the fact that he hasn't fully read them), so the more effort I put into clarifying my position the less likely it is that Misha will actually read a word of it.

@Misha:

All you keep saying is to respond what you actually say. So what do you actually say?

I said the things I said. As I have explained above, I have no confidence in your willingness to actually read this or any other post I make. When you demonstrate a basic knowledge of even a single post I have written, I will bother writing proper responses to you. 'Till then, my answer is and remains: Read what I have written. The answers to the questions you are asking are already there. I have explained why I believe Visitor Q's apology was insincere:

I don't want sensitivity , I want intellectual honesty and respect, and you are still delivering neither. You can't declare that the conversation is about something other than what it's about just by claiming that your (false) facts are opinions, and your assertion that I am unwilling to consider other people's perspectives when your stance is exactly as unchanged as mine is dishonest and hypocritical.

I have explained what I want from you, Visitor Q, et al, and it involves zero groveling:

I don't want sensitivity , I want intellectual honesty and respect, and you are still delivering neither. You can't declare that the conversation is about something other than what it's about just by claiming that your (false) facts are opinions, and your assertion that I am unwilling to consider other people's perspectives when your stance is exactly as unchanged as mine is dishonest and hypocritical. Seriously, all I'm asking of you is that you have enough respect to not lie to my face about what I, myself have said.

A post whose language you reference in your own and yet have apparently completely forgotten about, or else you're just engaging in willful doublethink to simultaneously believe that I am demanding that people respond to me instead of strawmen and also that I am demanding groveling and profuse apology. When you imply that I want a two hour dinner and thirty presents to be appeased, you are lying . Nothing I have ever asked for is remotely similar to that, and further you are clearly aware of what I am actually asking for it because you make reference to it, and yet you go on claiming otherwise . This is, again, completely dishonest, so cut it out already, because this ride doesn't end until you do.

And as for the original argument I made to which people still have not responded to with anything but baseless accusations and condescending dismissiveness, you can find that right here . I could quote that whole thing, fill up this post even more with quote blocks directing you to things that I have already said, but I'm really, really hoping that at some point you will realize that you are going to have to respond to the things I have said so I can stop cluttering up pages' worth of space reposting quote blocks of my own posts.

Sigh.... I wonder if I can just delete this entire thread.

Sigh.... I wonder if I can just delete this entire thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7iIbiIddGs

You'd be better off just not reading it. So long as this thread exists, it contains the argument. If it were gone, the argument is virtually guaranteed to crop up somewhere else sooner or later. You can't resolve differences by ignoring them.

At this point I don't care who's right or wrong, take it private or something.