To answer the original question the setting is split between Dark Heresy and Deathwatch. The deathwatch setting is about 45 on the grim dark setting. The heroes can actually make a difference and they are fighting in a sector that isn't irredeemable. The dark heresy part of the campaign is about 90 with the PCs seeing the rotten core of the Imperium. Part of the horror of the setting for me is that the marines are completely disconnected from ordinary humans they purport to protect.
Noblebright VS. Grimdark!
My only regret with 40k is that I didn't get into it sooner.
The new Star Wars RPG seems neat, but I can't get into it. I think it's just because it isn't grimdark enough for me.
Edited by Gridash
Couldn't you fall back on a different, "darker" setting, where there's even more shades of grey rather than black vs white?
The Rebellion Era is often portrayed as Good vs Evil, even though some of the more uncommon stories try a more realistic approach where the rebels are forced to make a pact with various unscrupulous forces such as pirates and smugglers just to keep things running and the Empire on its toes, whereas the Imperial Navy still tries to protect shipping lanes and has a duty to hunt down criminal elements or protect settlers and miners. But perhaps the popular image of Luka & Co. "fighting the good" fight makes it difficult for some people to get accustomed to this image.
How about if you set a game in the Legacy-era and its refreshing geopolitical climate that combines elements of the classic Trilogy and other sources with new ideas, all presented as a continuation of the known setting and a natural evolution of its background. You've got a galaxy still damaged by the widespread devastation of the Yuuzhan Vong war, lawlessness, genocide, slavery, flawed heroes and sympathetic villains. Depending on the exact time index of the campaign, you can either have an all-out war between the three factions of the Galactic Alliance Remnant (the flawed successor of the idealistic but naive New Republic, who suffers defeat ), Darth Krayt's new Sith Empire (with thousands of Sith trained in secrecy, dissolving the Rule of Two) or the Empire-in-Exile (led by dethroned Emperor Roan Fel, a benevolent dictator), with the Jedi either killed or in hiding - or you go for the post-war period and its grand project of the Galactic Triumvirate, a union of the major powers led by an Empress, a Jedi Master and the Alliance's last Admiral, struggling to restore order to a galaxy of isolated systems whose already damaged communications and infrastructure were smashed in the recent conflict, where crime is rampant and the remnants of Darth Krayt's Sith cult hide in the shadows, plotting against the victors and their vision.
Edited by Lynata
Well, it does seem promising. Maybe I'm too traumatized by Episode I
I haven't spent that much time digging in the lore, so 80% of my knowledge of the Star Wars lore is based on the movies.
Edited by GridashOh, I did play those Knights of the Old Republic games as well.
KotOR ftw.
Well, the Legacy era was the old canon's (RIP) newest and last big project, shut down in its prime as the franchise changed ownership and the canon was ultimately disbanded. We only got two comic series (one about the big war between the major powers, and a smaller, more personal story starring Ania Solo just trying to live through an adventure she was thrust into) and a P&P sourcebook out of it. But I loved every bit of it.
From said sourcebook's summary:
Obi-Wan Kenobi once called the period between the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Galactic Empire the "Dark Times". Had he foreseen the Legacy era, he might have called the period defined by Palpatine's rise to power something else. Indeed, the Legacy era is rife with the same tyranny, oppression, violence, and danger that flourished under Palpatine's rule. However, in the future of the Star Wars galaxy, the Empire is openly ruled by a Sith Lord and his dark minions, the Jedi have once again been hunted nearly to extinction, and the heir to the Skywalker name is a death-stick using bounty hunter who rejects the Force and everything associated with it. Times have never been grimmer than they are under Darth Krayt's Empire, and yet the opportunities for heroes to make a difference have never been more prevalent.
The Legacy era begins over 130 years after the Battle of Yavin. The galaxy is ruled by a tyrannical dictator, a Sith Lord named Darth Krayt, who has reestablished the Galactic Empire with his fellow Sith. The Jedi are scattered to the distant corners of the galaxy, and the only hope for democracy lies with the fleeing exiles of the Galactic Alliance. Yet the Empire is divided, with the former Emperor Roan Fel leading an insurgency against the Sith Lord that deposed him. Meanwhile, individuals lurking on the fringes of society profit by turning Jedi over to teh Empire for handsome rewards.
The Legacy era represents a period in Star Wars continuity where almost anything has its place. It combines the best and most iconic aspects of the Star Wars milieu, providing a time period in which Gamemasters are free to use character archetypes, organizations, weapons, starships, and themes introduced in earlier eras. The Legacy era is also a blank slate where heroes can make names for themselves, or use names that Star Wars fans have come to know and love: Antilles, Fel, Skywalker, and Solo, just to name a few. The Legacy era is a time of possibilities: A Mandalorian bounty hunter hero can wear clone trooper armor as he battles lightsaber-wielding Sith Lords and still fit perfectly into this time period.
Sorry for the OT, but I can't miss an opportunity to pimp this little-known gem of the franchise.
Nice setting. Well Lynata you got me thinking of running a game in setting, its Star Wars and its dark. About that Bunnies and Barrows, yeah thats exactly what I was thinking.
I sometimes dream of changing the status quo in Warhammer too. I got burned out on Star Wars for a while, after status quo sickness set in.
I do love the Legacy setting though, would've loved to see more of that.
Some of my favorite concepts for Warhammer campaigns involve moving the setting forward and really ushering in the End Times. Things like, Hive Fleet Typhon arriving ; Abbadon smashing through the cordons and hurtling closer to Terra; Imotekh the Stormlord bringing dynasties together in an attempt to purge a segmentum of organic life and carve out a new necron empire.
I know I call myself a Noblebright player, but I'm not opposed to Grimdarkness. I'm just a firm believer in the idea that 'the darker the night, the brighter the dawn'. What better time for ultimate heroics than at the end of the world?
Well, the invasion of Cadia and the Third Armageddon War is probably the furthest GW can push for changing the status quo without actually doing it. It is a setting for others to tell their own stories in, and for better or worse, this necessitates keeping things as open-ended as possible. That being said, just because a battle may not decide the fate of an entire empire, you can very well have stories that are about deciding the fate of entire worlds, which would certainly be epic enough?
As for Star Wars .. well, it depends on the era. Sure, power shifts only happen in-between them, but still each time you were left with a newly structured galaxy. And even though I got bored with the New Republic era, too, you have some interesting developments in-between, such as the Warlords coming and going (some of their territories, such as the Pentastar Alignment , being well-described in supplemental material), the efforts of Daala and Pellaeon to reunite and reform the Imperial Remnant, and last but not least the devastating Yuuzhan-Vong war which would indeed change the shape of the galaxy (on some terraformed worlds quite literally) in ways that would still be felt a century later.
My advice here would have been to simply ditch the X-Wing comics and hero novellas and instead focus on the bigger stories that would leave more of an impact. Though I have to say, I myself greatly enjoy the more personal adventures of less important people, too, but that is but a matter of taste.
I think the bigger problem with the perceived "status quo" is not that things don't actually change much, but that so very often some authors concoct stories that give the impression they would, when ultimately nothing changes at all, which just gets stale in a while.
"Oh no, the Empire has a new superweapon!" - "Not to worry, we'll send Rogue Squadron."
It's the same with 40k if you have Space Marines win all the time. A living setting needs to be more dynamic than that. Status quo is fine if it means a brittle WW1-style stalemate where each side scores wins and losses, but not if it means you have the heroes win all the time without having any consequences on the maps. That's cartoon levels of narration, where the supervillain develops a new plan to threaten world peace every week only to get busted by the shining heroes in the last second again and again.
Fortunately, there's a whole lot of better, more varied stories out there. Just gotta know where to look.
@Ramellan
If you're looking for a change-up for WH40K, you COULD advance the time and throw your players right into the End Times, as you said.
OR
You can be HERETICAL AS F**K and play in the "Eldar Gambit" alternate universe, and then just drop tiny hints, and then have a big reveal where you receive mostly-completely honest help with your mission from a Farseer and watch their faces slowly contort into absolute shock when she makes comments about sending Howling Banshees to shore up a faltering Imperial Guard battle-line. ITS FREAKING PRICELESS!
Good for trolling them senseless XD
Some people love the change-up, others obviously despise this whole idea. Look it up and form your own opinions.
A new setting (perhaps in an alternative universe) where the Emperor actually does awake, or he has been awake for some time but decided to go to the background again, would be nice.
Wasn't there some roleplay game where in Lotr, people play in a setting where Sauron DID win?
Just some non-canon stuff, based on "what-ifs".
@Ramellan
If you're looking for a change-up for WH40K, you COULD advance the time and throw your players right into the End Times, as you said.
OR
You can be HERETICAL AS F**K and play in the "Eldar Gambit" alternate universe, and then just drop tiny hints, and then have a big reveal where you receive mostly-completely honest help with your mission from a Farseer and watch their faces slowly contort into absolute shock when she makes comments about sending Howling Banshees to shore up a faltering Imperial Guard battle-line. ITS FREAKING PRICELESS!
Good for trolling them senseless XD
Some people love the change-up, others obviously despise this whole idea. Look it up and form your own opinions.
How does he do it? Easy. Hive Fleet Typhon comes, and true to all the Imperium's worst fears, it puts the last three invasions to shame with sheer size alone. (Typhon, by the way, was the single deadliest monster in all of Greek mythology. So terrifying even the gods feared it, so powerful that Zeus himself got his guts torn out in the first round, Typhon is depicted as a monstrous cross between man and dragon, with a writhing mass of serpent tails for legs, a scaled human torso wreathed in flame, and a dozen wings stretching out from his back. So gigantic that if he stood on the ground his head would reach the stars, so vast that if he stretched his arms out they would vanish into the east and west. So yeah, Awesome.)
In theory, the military might to defeat Typhon Does exist, but it would mean drawing the Entire combined forces of two segmentums together, Navy, Guard, Space Marine and Sister of Battle alike. Forget the logistics of organizing such an endeavor, there is a more pressing issue: time. Meaning, not enough of it. Even if you could do it, bringing all of these forces to bear would take years, maybe decades, in which time the Hive Fleet would devour whole sectors of the Galaxy and grow even more immense, requiring even more ships to be assembled, which would take more time.... You see the problem here? and that's not even going into what Orks and Chaos would get to do while all these ships are being stripped away from their positions.
Solution? Eldrad knows the Tyranids aren't picky with what they shove down their throats, so he decides to finally stop being a D**k (or perhaps, to perform the ultimate d**k move on his own species)travels to Macragge and hands over the key to all remaining Eldar power in the galaxy: an almost-complete map of the web way. He doesn't tell anyone outside of Ulthwe he's doing this, much less ask permission. Doesn't even make any demands, just says to the Space Marines that either way the war goes his people's fate is not in his hands, but others. He can only choose who gets to Judge what will happen to the Eldar.
Naturally Guilliman is suspicious of the Xenos' motives (oh yeah, Guilliman is back, that's a whole other thing) but being the most brilliant tactician in all of human history (and having spent the last few days banging his head into a wall over Typhon) it takes him all of five minutes reading the webway's abilities to realize that this is the only solution. So, the Avenging Son swallow his pride, puts on his practical pants, and tells the 2/3rds of all Space Marine chapters who come from him and think he's awesome: "Okay, Here Is The Plan."
10 months later, que the greatest space battle in Imperial History.
... Oh right, Eldrad. Before you think I've gone all soft on you all, just know that Guilliman decides to extend amnesty for past crimes to all craftworlds and fleets who decide to side with Ulthwe and fight with the Imperium in the Final Battle. Not all craftworlds agree to this, and some of the Big Five are really pissed at Eldrad for doing this. Eldrad knows that they won't just give up and go along with his plan. Before the Rhana Dandra is over, Eldar will war with Eldar....
Edited by Ramellan
Ramellan - curse you, I want to know what happens now!!
Great story and nice way to move the universe forward to new era (or a Tyranid digestive pit depending on the outcome....)
DW
So my question of the day is this: how Grimdark is your Deathwatch?
Depending on what you consider grimdark. It is not as simple as it seems, and grimdark for the sake of grimdark will quickly become over-the-top, difficult to beleive, and therefore less impacting on players - this is what we saw in GW's fluff until approx. 5th edition.
The fluff we've seen since 5th edition scores lower on grimdark scale than it could, and quite frankly should. Your players simply will not get the "5 minutes before midnight" feel I personally love 40k for.
What do I do to stay grimdark and stay believable? I study the history of wars - from child-soldiers of africa to WWII concentration camps, from Iran-Iraq massacre to Afghanistan which knows only war for decades, from WW I hellscape battlefields to soviet civilians from WW2 (mostly women and children, since men were fighting on the frontlines) working 12, 14, 16 - hour workshifts with no weekends without even proper nutrition. In terms of pure, hardcore grimdark, I am yet to see a piece of GW fluff which at least comes close to horrors humanity inflicts on itself in real life, and you will hardly find any other universe where all of it evokes the setting so well.
Depending on what you consider grimdark. It is not as simple as it seems, and grimdark for the sake of grimdark will quickly become over-the-top, difficult to beleive, and therefore less impacting on players - this is what we saw in GW's fluff until approx. 5th edition.So my question of the day is this: how Grimdark is your Deathwatch?
The fluff we've seen since 5th edition scores lower on grimdark scale than it could, and quite frankly should. Your players simply will not get the "5 minutes before midnight" feel I personally love 40k for.
What do I do to stay grimdark and stay believable? I study the history of wars - from child-soldiers of africa to WWII concentration camps, from Iran-Iraq massacre to Afghanistan which knows only war for decades, from WW I hellscape battlefields to soviet civilians from WW2 (mostly women and children, since men were fighting on the frontlines) working 12, 14, 16 - hour workshifts with no weekends without even proper nutrition. In terms of pure, hardcore grimdark, I am yet to see a piece of GW fluff which at least comes close to horrors humanity inflicts on itself in real life, and you will hardly find any other universe where all of it evokes the setting so well.
Hey now, don't forget good ol' America, which I believe is stil the only country in the world to use weapons of mass destruction on civilian targets. Or, any targets, really. Sigh, I'd say that viewpoint is depressing (and, well, it is) but someone asked me something once, that I still try to hold onto: would life, or peace, or love have any meaning or value if nothing could ever take it away?
Depending on what you consider grimdark. It is not as simple as it seems, and grimdark for the sake of grimdark will quickly become over-the-top, difficult to beleive, and therefore less impacting on players - this is what we saw in GW's fluff until approx. 5th edition.So my question of the day is this: how Grimdark is your Deathwatch?
The fluff we've seen since 5th edition scores lower on grimdark scale than it could, and quite frankly should. Your players simply will not get the "5 minutes before midnight" feel I personally love 40k for.
What do I do to stay grimdark and stay believable? I study the history of wars - from child-soldiers of africa to WWII concentration camps, from Iran-Iraq massacre to Afghanistan which knows only war for decades, from WW I hellscape battlefields to soviet civilians from WW2 (mostly women and children, since men were fighting on the frontlines) working 12, 14, 16 - hour workshifts with no weekends without even proper nutrition. In terms of pure, hardcore grimdark, I am yet to see a piece of GW fluff which at least comes close to horrors humanity inflicts on itself in real life, and you will hardly find any other universe where all of it evokes the setting so well.
Hey now, don't forget good ol' America, which I believe is stil the only country in the world to use weapons of mass destruction on civilian targets. Or, any targets, really. Sigh, I'd say that viewpoint is depressing (and, well, it is) but someone asked me something once, that I still try to hold onto: would life, or peace, or love have any meaning or value if nothing could ever take it away?
That ... really depends on how you're going to define weapons of mass destruction.
If you're limiting the definition to actual nukes used outside of test shots, then yes, the USA is the only country that's detonated one against a live target instead of just a test range. If you're including chemical and/or biological warfare actions, which are typically lumped in with nukes as the WMD trinity, then not even close.
America? I quite like the themes of US civil war and indian wars. Some good materiel for OW and RT games respectively.
And yeah, non-nuclear strikes were far more lethal during the war.
Fred: "Wow, gang! That Gene Simmons was actually Buddy Holly!"
Buddy Holly: "And i would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddeling kids!"
@Ramellan
If you're looking for a change-up for WH40K, you COULD advance the time and throw your players right into the End Times, as you said.
OR
You can be HERETICAL AS F**K and play in the "Eldar Gambit" alternate universe, and then just drop tiny hints, and then have a big reveal where you receive mostly-completely honest help with your mission from a Farseer and watch their faces slowly contort into absolute shock when she makes comments about sending Howling Banshees to shore up a faltering Imperial Guard battle-line. ITS FREAKING PRICELESS!
Good for trolling them senseless XD
Some people love the change-up, others obviously despise this whole idea. Look it up and form your own opinions.
Is that the one in wich Alpharius becomes the new emperor?
Hey now, don't forget good ol' America, which I believe is stil the only country in the world to use weapons of mass destruction on civilian targets. Or, any targets, really. Sigh, I'd say that viewpoint is depressing (and, well, it is) but someone asked me something once, that I still try to hold onto: would life, or peace, or love have any meaning or value if nothing could ever take it away?
You know what plan B was in case Japan didn't surrender after the two nukes? Operation Downfall (You know it can't be good if the military gives it such an emo/gi-joe codename) A full on invasion and Nuke bombardment at the same time! (bad idea!) The yanks were gonna drop 4 (FOUR!) of them. My guess is they would have been named after the four horesmen of the apocalypse. The first and second invasion waves had the same coördinates because they expected 95% casualties in the first wave. Every single purple heart awarded since the end of WWII comes from a stock pile the army had prepared for operation Downfall. THATS how many casualties they weer expecting... Wow.Talk about grimdark.
Fred: "Wow, gang! That Gene Simmons was actually Buddy Holly!"
Buddy Holly: "And i would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddeling kids!"
Fred: "Wow, gang! That Gene Simmons was actually Buddy Holly!"
Buddy Holly: "And i would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddeling kids!"
Sherrif: I'm..I'm not sure a crimes been committed. Maybe life insurance fraud?
Shaggy: "Zoinks! Scoob, stop chasing Eric Singer!"
Wait how did we end up from 40k grimdark to ScoobyDoo vs Kiss?
Not sure but the Mystery team is clearly an acolyte cell in the employ of a radical Inquisitor, I mean they have used two mutant dog creatures (possibly xenos)? They also seem more interested in facts than just flaming everything. Highly suspicious if you ask me
Aaaand now i wanna play 40k scooby doo. Brilliant.
Fred: "Now, we'll see who Alpharius really is!" *pulls of Alpaharius helmet*
Fred: "Omegon?"
Omegon: "i'm Alpharius"
Shaggy: "??? My head hurts, Scoob ol buddy!"
Daphne: " You are a loyal dog of the Emperor aren't you Scooby?"
Scooby: " Ri ran't say, Raphne."