As we all know and love to various degrees, Warhammer sets itself apart from all other settings in fantasy and sci-fi for its sheer, undiluted, over 9000% hardcore Grimdarkness! A world where for 99% of all beings the best ending you can hope for is dying in a manly way against extraterrestrial horrors. Who doesn't love the sound of that?

Strangely enough though, most humans don't seem all that happy living in such a depressing world that even victory is defeat, and there can be no lasting triumph (cause then what would GW make us buy?) for anyone. Some humans seem to actually need more in their lives than a daily helping of whippings (from either your local church priest or your Dark Eldar mistress) and some corpse starch.

Alright, witty banter aside, I do wonder how other people actually run their games in this regard. I know as much as I love hardcore badasses, there's only so much of this setting I can take before I have to go and do something less depressing (Wrath of Iron, Death of Antagonis, I'm looking at you!). Call me crazy, but I like it when my Kill-team actually saves the day without having to resort to Exterminatus.

So my question of the day is this: how Grimdark is your Deathwatch?

(Just for fun, let's add a little scoring to this discussion. In addition to any descriptions about your game and how awesome it is, scale your Grimdarkness on a 1 - 100. 1 meaning your game should be called My Little Ponywatch, and 100 meaning people quit your groups in a fit of rage on a regular basis cause you are just that much of a troll.)

Well if you go all the way back to the 1st 40k, when it was called rogue trader, you will find (and I think Lynata will back me up on this) that the 40k setting wasn't quite as gothic and grimdark as it is now. It certainly was a lot brightly colored. But hey it was the 90s! (Now that i think of it: Noise marines pretty much sum up the 90s mindset.)

Haven't played that much DW (BC got kinda squicky, DH has sorta become necromunda) so to give it a number, I'll have to say:

"69, dudes!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist the Bill & Ted quote. But the number is about correct. The setting is grim, but not to the point of "What's the point? ah sod it, I'm gonna join chaos!"

I try to put myself basically at the level of A Game of Thrones. Lots of brutality and stuff but there are some lights of noble and hope, although not that many.

I find that Ramsay Snow's quote holds true for 40k aswell: "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

Well if you go all the way back to the 1st 40k, when it was called rogue trader, you will find (and I think Lynata will back me up on this) that the 40k setting wasn't quite as gothic and grimdark as it is now. It certainly was a lot brightly colored. But hey it was the 90s! (Now that i think of it: Noise marines pretty much sum up the 90s mindset.)

Haven't played that much DW (BC got kinda squicky, DH has sorta become necromunda) so to give it a number, I'll have to say:

"69, dudes!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist the Bill & Ted quote. But the number is about correct. The setting is grim, but not to the point of "What's the point? ah sod it, I'm gonna join chaos!"

This isn't quite right.

Back in the day Rogue Trader WH40K still had a grim dark gothic setting it was simply that Games Workshop didn't take itself so seriously so there were more in jokes. In addition the fashion was somewhat more outlandish, however this was actually fairly standard for Sci Fi of the time so more represents its 80s origin than a change in tone.

Some of the pencil art work from the 80s is actually more twisted than the present stuff. It was also slightly less over the top in the setting (i.e vaugley believable). This had pros and cons. However for the most part it was actually pretty similar to what we have now.

As for the OP, I think its a matter of perspective, the characters don't realise they are in a 'Grim Dark' setting. For them its just reality. Therefore the tone of the game doesn't need to be unrelentingly depressing and the PCs can even win victories. But they should never be able to put the whole Galaxy right.

I beg to differ slightly: while a lot of the grimdark was established it wasn't as bleak as it is now: Th emperor wasn't viewed as a complete ******, the eldar, while not exactly our friends had the imperiums back when it came to fighting chaos, The 'nids were freaky world eating bugs but not to the extent of "well the Ultima segmentum is f*cked." there were no evil eldar obsessed with torture and soul hunger, and the necrons were some mysterious alien terminators knockoffs rather than this ancient threath that wanted to wipe out all life. Deathwing terminators had native american influencens rather than the cowls, censers and armour that looks like it wants to be a cathedral...

But i get what you say about the artwork. Esepcially Ian Millers work was awesome!

Personally, I think 2E and 3E was Grimdark at its height. It is quite correct that Rogue Trader already included some fairly nasty artworks (and a lot of them, at that!), but Mr. Graves has a point when raising the issue of a lot of the horrors of the 41st millennium - including more details about Marines and Sororitas that made these organisations look a lot less friendly than their short RT descriptions may have hinted at - only having been added later on. That being said, I also acknowledge that the aforementioned "outlandish" look of the fashion may have made everything look less serious than it may have been intended. Same for the pop culture references.

Still, I can't remember passages about entire worlds celebrating religiously induced self-genocide, or the State Church selling children as sex slaves. That's 2E stuff.

Also, Space Marines totally wouldn't just arrest punks spraying seditious graffiti on walls .

Anyways, I think a turnaround came at about 5th and 6th edition, when it feels as if GW slowly shifted direction in its design and narration, putting more focus on heroism and scaling back the portrayals of horror and wickedness, both in writing as well as miniature design. This may sound a bit snobbish, but my "veteran neckbeard" gut wants to call it "kids-friendly".

As for myself, I try for an amalgamation of all of it. After all, very few things have actually been overwritten by succeeding editions - it's just that some things don't get mentioned anymore, whilst new stuff gets added. Fortunately, I feel my current group thinks the same way. I do suppose things could be a little more horrible and grimdark from time to time (may have to talk to the GM about that; I haven't really thought about it until this thread), but I've never had an encounter or event that would run contrary to my own interpretation. That is to say: "human life was suitably cheap".

Th emperor wasn't viewed as a complete ******

Isn't that only the "fault" of a single Black Library novel series, which just happens to be the only one portraying him as a character, and of the community still erroneously believing that all official products are supposed to seamlessly and consistently fit together, even when the very writers who produce these books declared the opposite?

Some of the examples given are more a case of RT being the first edition that the setting getting darker. In other words GW hadn't explained certain things. Certainly Tyranids were always a galactic threat as explicitly mentioned in Ian Watson space marine. For the record Eldar still have the Imperium back when it comes to Chaos it's just that they are more capricious in their other activities

Which I guess is a move towards a darker setting.

@Lynata: Ecclesiarchy selling kids as a sex slaves? This seems likely a distinctly unGW thing for them to include. What source is this from?

Th emperor wasn't viewed as a complete ******

Isn't that only the "fault" of a single Black Library novel series, which just happens to be the only one portraying him as a character, and of the community still erroneously believing that all official products are supposed to seamlessly and consistently fit together, even when the very writers who produce these books declared the opposite?

Yeah I'll admit it's mostly from the HH novels (and then the later ones at that). But you can also see a shift in the chaos codexes (codi? codicese?) from "chaos marines are just bad, mkay." (2e) to "space marines with their humanity back" (i think 4th) wich is quite a bit of change.

You have to remember that this is just normal for people in the 41st millennium. A Deathwatch game doesn't have to be grimdark, because it isn't focused on the every day futility of a normal citizens life. These are not even regular space marines, they are Space Marines that are working with the inquisition. So they can get in and make stuff happen when they need to. I would say that my game is probably a 40 on the grimdark scale. I put the players in lots of situations where they can see the madness and barbarity of the Imperium, but I allow them to hold onto hope that their efforts can make a difference in the lives of those around them.

Yeah, the core of Deathwatch is pretty much about a bunch of knights in shining armour riding in to save the day by killing a big tentacle beast or whatever. Cue Michael Bay special effects and prominent displays of the Aquila banner at the end.

Clever GMs can still insert as much Grimdark as they want, though, by confronting the players with "difficult choices" where they'd have to choose between human lives or their orders, or even "grey zones" like having to kill a hundred innocent people to save a million etc. The potential is always there, it's just a matter of deciding whether or not you want to use it.

This has very little to do with the specific setting, though.

@Lynata: Ecclesiarchy selling kids as a sex slaves? This seems likely a distinctly unGW thing for them to include. What source is this from?

2E Codex: Sisters of Battle

"During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants , and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial nobles . The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices , and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders, and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain."

If you consider the average age of a Schola students and graduates, that's pretty dark! The author has obviously tried to "cushion" the full impact of the text by choosing terms such as "concubine" instead of "sex slave", but ... yeah.

Ol' Vandire

Forgot about him. Yep now I remember why they chopped his head off.

This guy...this f*cking guy...

That's some slaaneshi sh*t right there.

And people wonder why I joined chaos...

P.S. One of my BC characters once claimed that drill abots got frisky with their schola pupils and now it turns out he was right.

Poor schola progenium kids, can you imagine being in a Imperial orphanage?

And since this is 40k, you KNOW you don't get beaten with an ordinary cane, but a chain-cane.

And since this is 40k, you KNOW you don't get beaten with an ordinary cane, but a chain-cane.

Phht. Canes.

Were's the master of assassins when you need him/her? Oh yeah they had agreed on not playing in the imperial palace anymore after they wrecked several parts of it

Probably a good thing the brides of the emperor (corect me if i'm wrong about the name) killed him when they did, as there were a bunch of astartes chapters ready to re-enact the siege of the imperial palace...

Best death quote tough: "I don't have time to die... I'm too busy!"

And since this is 40k, you KNOW you don't get beaten with an ordinary cane, but a chain-cane.

Phht. Canes.

"This can be complemented by numerous short swords, knives or mauls, or possibly an electro-baton which delivers a numbing shock and is usually employed to discipline wayward Progena."

- http://games-workshop.com/specialist-games/inquisitor/bestiary/ecclesiarchy.html

"If a cadet publicly disobeys orders, they will meet a spectacular and very public end, courtesy of a drill abbot's great hammer. What little remains of their spine is coiled within a glass box and mounted within the dormitory to serve as a warning to othes."

- 6E Cs:ST

Nighthaunter: "They will become worse than all of us, you know that, don't you."

Alpharius: "The loyalists?"

Nighthaunter: "Yes. I have forseen it."

Alpharius: "Even Fullgrim? His legion is getting very...debased."

Nighthaunter: "Even worse than him. Loyalist. Traitor. In the end we're all the same."

Alpharius:" looks like we'll have to reevaluate wich side we are on."

Nighthaunter: " I tought you were with the Warmaster."

Alpahrius: "Honestly? I can't say..."

Probably a good thing the brides of the emperor (corect me if i'm wrong about the name) killed him when they did, as there were a bunch of astartes chapters ready to re-enact the siege of the imperial palace...

They - four Chapters of Space Marines and the Martian Tech-Guard of the Mechanicus - were already trying to get in. It just wasn't an easy job as the palace is a fairly impressive fortification and had some dedicated guardians in easily defensible positions. According to the codex, the siege lasted four months until the Custodes made their move to end the stalemate.

But you are correct on the name ->

• Pre-Vandire: Daughters of the Emperor
• Vandire era: Brides of the Emperor
• Post-Vandire: Daughters of the Emperor

Wow, big discussion. A little off topic, but I love where it's going. While we're on the subject of the ecclesiarchy I wanted to ask, is there any division within the Sisters of Battle? Not just about different orders, I mean strife within them. Like, how there are puritans and radicals in the inquisition, and competing factions in the Mechanicus, or how even Space Marine chapters can hold grudges against each other. Are there Sororitas who think other sororitas are weak or corrupt? I've had an idea recently for a minor order of Sister Militants who are considered radicals by their cousins in the Order Majoris.

Hahah, sorry for the OT - stuff like that just tends to happen the longer a thread goes on, but I admit I easily fall prey to any "honey traps" regarding my own favourite subjects and have a difficult time staying on track.

To answer your question: Not so much in GW's original material, at least. From the IG background of the Schola Progenium we know that progena are made to conform from day 1 of their life in the habitat, and whoever advances far enough to be chosen for a novitiate in the Adepta Sororitas will receive a similarly uniform education at an Orders Famulous Training Facility before becoming a fully-fledged Sister and taking their vows in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra. Only then are they actually despatched on their final assignments to whatever Order and convent they were chosen for, and only then will they even have a chance to become "corrupted" by local customs. However, as the Sisters at said convent will have gone through the very same uniform training scheme, risks of pollution by external influences is limited.

The most notable/common division would seem to be the slightly different focuses - for the Orders Militant have six different Founding Saints, each of whom has their own dedicated Major Order Militant that attempts to emulate their virtues and character above the other five, and all the Minor Orders connected to them will likely do the same:

This guy...this f*cking guy...

That's some slaaneshi sh*t right there.

And people wonder why I joined chaos...

P.S. One of my BC characters once claimed that drill abots got frisky with their schola pupils and now it turns out he was right.

Well the nature of Chaos is that as bad as any mortal can be Chaos can do worse.

They are the ultimate 'story toppers'

The essence of Chaos is the darkest depths of the human (and eldar, etc) soul, free of the boundaries of reality.

The essence of Chaos is the darkest depths of the human (and eldar, etc) soul, free of the boundaries of reality.

...caught in a cumulative whirlpool effect and with the ability to reflect and influence real time and add to its self exponentially. Or as Lovecraft would say 'The horror the horror'.

100 Grimdark Rating

Oh and my group enjoys blowing worlds up. Its time like that when I wish we could play RPG in which we play as happy bunny rabbits.

100 Grimdark Rating

Oh and my group enjoys blowing worlds up. Its time like that when I wish we could play RPG in which we play as happy bunny rabbits.

Something like this?