Via PM, another board member, Smog, had what I thought was an excellent idea: rather than a Universal spec that characters would have to take in addition to the spec for the career they chose at chargen, instead they should be able to replace that spec with a "universal" spec that would have talents more reflective of what a Jedi would learn from their formal education. They would still start with their career bonus skills and FR1, but any of the F&D careers could pick this "Jedi in Training" spec instead, and then purchase their first career spec normally afterwards.

The existing F&D specs are full of flavour, but none of them provide a broad foundation to encompass what a "Jedi" would start with. The existing trees seem to be more representative of what a Jedi would start focussing on once they became a Knight.

I'm sure everybody will differ on what they think should be in a "padawan" spec that reflects basic Temple training, but I had a few goals for this:

- try to focus on "foundational" training

- where possible, stick with ranked Talents

- where possible, do not pluck flavourful non-ranked Talents from existing F&D trees (but non-ranked Talents from the other books, like Disorient, were fair game)

- give more breadth for 150XP (for "Knight-level" play) than the existing F&D trees

You'll have to pardon the ugly presentation and lack of description, but these are all existing Talents, and most should be well known.

EDIT: new thread with revised spec and design doc here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/127046-jedi-initiate-universal-specialization-full-design-write-up-inside/

I would say that a Jedi in Training should get a faster approach to Force Rating, much like emergent, since they're likely to increase their knowledge and skill in the force quickly under formal instruction. Overall, I don't know how I feel about the tree, but I agree with the philosophy you have.

I believe there should be another Universal Spec for force users to adequately reflect a more comprehensive knowledge/training they would receive with a formal education. I mainly started thinking this way after creating some characters, I generally would take Force Sensitive Emergent because it just made sense. It was a relatively quick path to Force Rating, and you had talents that made sense for a force user to have. Things like Sense Danger, Sense Emotions, Balance,Uncanny Senses, Uncanny Reactions, etc. I felt like these were basic force sensitive stuff most would learn as they began their training. Hardly any of the specs in F&D have those talents and the ones that do only have like a rank or two of each.

Each spec I realize has it's own flavor, which is good, but there is something to be said about learning the basics when it comes to the force, which I believe Emergent and Exile reflect, and what I think you seem to argue for, Whafrog. There seems to not really be much of that in F&D.

We already have it. It is called force sensitive emergent or any of the force and destiny careers.

Indeed. Same argument could have been said with Exile. Same argument could be made with Recruit, or any other specialization. More options don't hurt.

I believe there should be another Universal Spec for force users to adequately reflect a more comprehensive knowledge/training they would receive with a formal education. I mainly started thinking this way after creating some characters, I generally would take Force Sensitive Emergent because it just made sense.

I agree, FSEm is close, but it has baggage like "Indistinguishable", which doesn't make much sense in a galaxy where Jedi aren't trying to hide. Also, no Parry or Reflect. Also #2, I wanted to give room for some academics, which seems fairly important to Jedi training. The idea was to not double up on Talents like UncannyX but to have more breadth, dabbling a little here and there.

I would say that a Jedi in Training should get a faster approach to Force Rating, much like emergent,

Possibly, but I'm veering around to thinking that more can be done with FR1 and 2 than I'd previously considered. From the other thread discussing Ahsoka, as a fresh Padawan FR1 seems doable. Even if you decide FR2 is a requirement for a Padawan, I think it's 95XP to get there in this tree, which if one is playing with an extra 150 leaves some good room for basic Force powers and skills.

Instead of "Jedi-In-Training", perhaps call it "Apprentice". This way it's neither Jedi nor Sith, but still implies some sort of formal training.

Instead of "Jedi-In-Training", perhaps call it "Apprentice". This way it's neither Jedi nor Sith, but still implies some sort of formal training.

Could do...but I think a Sith tree would be different, with ranks in Intimidating, Fearsome, etc.

Instead of "Jedi-In-Training", perhaps call it "Apprentice". This way it's neither Jedi nor Sith, but still implies some sort of formal training.

Could do...but I think a Sith tree would be different, with ranks in Intimidating, Fearsome, etc.

I was just thinking in terms of a generic "officially trained" character. I do see what you're saying tho....a Sith would have different skills/talents than a Jedi. Perhaps what's in order is a(n unofficial) guide to the Jedi and Sith?

an officially trained character is represented by a F&D career. I think you guys are getting too hung up on mechanic names. It is about story not the name of a career or specialization.

I honestly don't see why we couldn't have the Force & Destiny version of 'Recruit' that gives us the basics, as whafrog posits here.

FS Exile is a self-taught force-adept trying to keep a low profile; not the same thing as a padawan at all.

I've been working on revising the Jedi Initiate (aka Jedi 101) universal spec from my Ways of the Force fan supplement. Tree is almost completely different, dropping a number of talents to make room for 2 ranks each of Parry and Reflect. Force Rating talent is a bit on the pricey side to get to (105 XP, including the 25 XP cost for the talent itself), but I think that's counter-acted by the simple fact that as a universal spec, it would mesh very nicely with the Lightsaber Form specs, and can provide Discipline as a bonus career skill very easily (5 XP talent) which is generally useful for Force users. On the surface of things, it's pretty potent by itself, and will carry an advisory that GMs should only allow said spec if comfortable doing so and that the player should have a good reason for taking the spec beyond "I want to be a badass Force user with a lightsaber!"

I disagree with the OP's notion of allowing a "swap out" of the FaD PC's starting specialization options for a "universal Jedi spec," particularly as each FaD career has a Lightsaber Form spec, and pushes the decision to eventually take both as a "why wouldn't I do that?!" Which to me is an indicator that said option is perhaps too good, depending on how said "Jedi Apprentice" specialization is laid out.

For the default setting of the books (Rebellion Era and potentially later half of the Dark Times), not having the option to start as a bona-fide Jedi makes perfect sense; the established training structure that the Jedi Order relied upon has been torn down along with the Order itself, so there aren't new apprentices being trained. Instead, any potential apprentices are being trained in a much more haphazard way and are likely far older than the infants and toddlers that previously made up the Initiate pool. So in that respect, it makes perfect sense that a starting FaD character isn't going to have the full breadth if proper Jedi training, and instead will only have elements of it rather than the "full package" that most Padawans (who'd been training since they could walk, if not before) would have upon their leaving the Temple with their Master.

So let me get this straight. In order to better represent the early training of Force users (because I refuse to acknowledge Jedi-exclusive character choices), you feel the need to create a special Universal specialization to replace your starting specialization. So in order to accurately portray to early training of these characters, every single character would have the same starting specialization with a set of talents and skills no one will likely agree to, rather than the wide variety of options presented by the various specializations we already have to represent that starting training.

Problem #1. Why? The explanation you gave, sorry to say, is complete garbage. We have dozens of specializations to choose from at the start that all represent one's early training. Why do we need a single specialization to cover this?

Problem # 2. Is this necessary? All this accomplishes is a failing attachment to names that only damages characters and the entire game. Further, you would suggest, or even force, players into all taking the same specialization, basically badwronging them and saying that their characters aren't correct unless they take this starting specialization.

While I agree that some variety of Universal specialization still has something that can be added to the game, we absolutely don't need one "true path" dictated to players as to how they should be playing this game. Your proposal accomplishes nothing outside of that badwronging, and this attachment and obsession to these names and organizations is only going to lead you to madness.

As far as the core notion of "Jedi in training," quite frankly that's more of a character background element than anything to do with the character's starting specialization.

For instance, I'm playing a Warrior/Shii-Cho Knight in a friend's existing SW game, and part of the character's background was that he has received some degree of "Jedi training" from a Padawan that managed to avoid the massacre that was Order 66 and go into hiding. He's vaguely aware of Obi-Wan's message (though not really who Obi-Wan is or was). By dint of his background and having two ranks in Lightsaber as well as the Move and Sense powers, said PC certainly qualifies as a "Jedi in training" even if he'll have to eventually take another specialization to get to Force Rating 2 (I'm looking at Exile from EotE to reflect him being self-taught since his teacher is no longer available), with Force Rating 3 being a distant goal that he might never reach.

That's not to say I'm entirely innocent of what ScooterAB mentions (having written up a universal Jedi specialization, though far prior to Force and Destiny), and he's got some good points where the OP's suggestion and it's merits/flaws are concerned. I think the core problem is that a number of folks are still attached to how WotC handled being a Jedi; namely that for the most part, if you didn't have levels in a Jedi class, then your character really wasn't a Jedi.

Truthfully, the more I thought about it, the more I liked that FFG hasn't included a Jedi anything, career or spec, in Force and Destiny. I think the system, being far more open and flexible in defining the character as opposed to a strictly class and level based system like D&D, is better served in that a player can opt to call their character a Jedi (or even a Jedi Knight) after they feel that character has reached a certain threshold of ability/competence/power but isn't required to take a specific specialization in order to do so. In spite of what some might think, there's been more than one path to becoming a Jedi Knight, even within the Jedi Order of the prequels, both in the revised canon and especially in Legends, where even the path to becoming a Jedi Master was not set in stone, and was based more on a degree of competence and wisdom than any particular collection of talents or skills.

So let me get this straight. In order to better represent the early training of Force users (because I refuse to acknowledge Jedi-exclusive character choices)...

I guess it wasn't clear in the OP: the intention was solely to provide something for campaigns where the PC is an actual Jedi, Temple trained, with a classic Padawan background, and most likely in an Old Republic (pre Dark Times) setting. Such a campaign would probably started at the so-called "Knight level", so there would be plenty of XP room for variation within the spec, and quick divergence into the PC's chosen career.

It wasn't intended as a replacement for every starting Force user, and it certainly wasn't intended for use outside the setting context. So you can "refuse to acknowledge", but then this spec isn't for you so it's irrelevant.

Problem #1. Why? The explanation you gave, sorry to say, is complete garbage. We have dozens of specializations to choose from at the start that all represent one's early training. Why do we need a single specialization to cover this?

Because I think the existing specs are very specialized, which doesn't represent to me what a Padawan would learn. They seem like "Knight level" specs to me, quite suitable for an EotE or AoR character to branch into, but not a Temple-trained Jedi out of the gate.

Problem # 2. Is this necessary? All this accomplishes is a failing attachment to names that only damages characters and the entire game. Further, you would suggest, or even force, players into all taking the same specialization, basically badwronging them and saying that their characters aren't correct unless they take this starting specialization.

....this attachment and obsession to these names and organizations is only going to lead you to madness.

I've made no such suggestion *at all*, this is entirely your own fabrication. And really..."madness"? Great hyperbole. You made all this up, so who owns the madness now?

Actual jedi trained jedi are pretty different from each other. Yes they have a lot of commonalities. But there is absolutely no reason for them tall all take the same career. Seeing as the jedi core abilities are distributed across many of the Force and Destiny careers

Actual jedi trained jedi are pretty different from each other. Yes they have a lot of commonalities. But there is absolutely no reason for them tall all take the same career. Seeing as the jedi core abilities are distributed across many of the Force and Destiny careers

Jedi are not trained "pretty different" from each other during their Youngling years at all. I'm not sure what you're basing this on but Jedi Younglings are fostered at the Temple until they come to such an age that their Fosterer (a type of nurse/parent/guardian of the young Younglings) looks into their future. Based on their traits, the Younglings are then placed into one of the Clans of the Jedi Order, each of which is mentored by a specific Jedi Master. The Initiates all take the same basic lessons as they move through the Academy, with each Clan receiving some private instruction by the mentor of their Clan (Yoda for Bear Clan, etc). Once all of the lessons are complete, the Initiates go through their trials which are a comprehensive series of tests checking the Initiates retention of their teachings. Those that pass become Padawan candidates, and those that don't either go to one of the Service Corps or leave the order entirely.

So to say that Jedi trained traditionally at the Jedi Academies were all trained "pretty different" has absolutely no basis in the lore. Yes, individual learning and specialization eventually forms during their Padawan (or Service Corp) years when they are instructed by a singular Jedi Master and grow into adulthood, discovering their particular strengths. And has been discussed, debated, and built in other threads, these years can only easily be represented roughly at Knight Level. This tree does not represent that time. This tree is to provide a common grounding for the 10+ years an Initiate is trained in the Order at an Academy. Mechanically, it provides a way for a character to receive the talents most representative of this background without purchasing 4 or 5 specializations to do so (something that is impossible at character generation).

The reason the "jedi core abilities" are distributed across so many specializations in FaD is because, as the devs have made quite clear, these careers are NOT Jedi. These careers are the remnants of lost knowledge blended with old teachings and self instruction. This specialization is for those GMs that want a specialization that represents a specific background in a specific Era and no one else. The only way this would even be available in a Dark Times or GCW Era game is if the player found a Master's holocron (or several) or he was lucky enough to find a surviving Jedi Knight or Master to teach him.

This is a specialization, and as such, a player taking it would not have to take everything in it, so saying that every character who does would be the same is plainly false. A Consular type would take the more knowledge and mental based Talents while a Guardian type would take the more physical based. The Seer or Force Wizard concept would take the left side of the tree that focuses on Sensing and more abstract facets of Jedi learning. Saying people that take this tree will all be the same is like saying there are only as many builds in the game as there are specializations, which everyone knows is simply not true. Coming out of this tree you will still pick up a Lightsaber form of your choice, you will still probably choose a traditional F&D career like Advisor or Shadow. The only purpose of this tree is to allow a character to pick up iconic Jedi abilities that are otherwise scattered across 20 different specializations so that they can play their concept without a) spending 200xp to do so, or b) cutting corners and pretending they have abilities they don't.

edit: A full design write-up will be coming within the next 24 hours and will address the concerns and questions people have. For once, let's have a civil discussion and not be dismissive just because your knee-jerk reaction is that something is not needed no matter what the purpose or motivation for it may be.

Personally I think the early commonalities of Jedi are fluff and taking the Lightsaber skill. Padawan and on can be simulated taking a spec in F&D in my book. I don't really see the need for a generic unispec myself, but see no reason people can't kitbash one if they want it.

I think people are either getting too caught up in the wrong aspects of this discussion, or are purposefully ignoring them and twisting them around.

The point, I think, Whafrog and Smog are trying to make and which I see echoed in other places, is that the idea of creating a "Force User" / Jedi with the current options do not exactly jive with what has been set forth with established cannon/lore, and even with Legends content.

It's not about creating a specific career/specialization name that is necessary to take in order to call a character a Jedi. You can call it whatever you want: "Force Sensitive Apprentice", "Force Sensitive Adept", "Mary-Sue's Force Sensitive Special Snowflake". It's about having a career/specialization that coalesces the main abilities that are reasonably expected of a Jedi to have. This is not a perceptual issue either. There is a reasonable and logical basis of what Jedi can do. It's just a bit absurd when it takes an inordinate amount of XP and needing to dive through X amount of trees to get there.

I don't exactly agree with Whafrog's original premise about allowing it to be a swap out tree. I think having it work as the Recruit Specialization does in AoR is more than reasonable. Perhaps as part of Knight--or rather--"Advanced Play" there can be an optional variant that allows it to act as a swap out.

This isn't even an outrageous or even unheard of request. It's based on a logical precedence already set forth in the previous books. It would allow there to be less of an anxiety in creating decent Jedi/Force Using characters, and creates more opportunities for character developments and settings for GMs. For GMs that wish to have characters that are more in-line with being in the Rebellion Era, then the answer is simple: Don't allow the players to take the specialization. Explain that it's a spec made to represent more formally trained Jedi/Force Users, and that it is not appropriate or possible to have that type of training in your established game/setting. They have Exile and Emergent instead.

There really shouldn't be backlash against something reasonable like this.

Personally I think the early commonalities of Jedi are fluff and taking the Lightsaber skill. Padawan and on can be simulated taking a spec in F&D in my book. I don't really see the need for a generic unispec myself, but see no reason people can't kitbash one if they want it.

I guess if you want to treat it that way you can, but we can see very real examples of them not being fluff in the source material. Saying that the commonalities are fluff implies that any 14 year old in the Star Wars Universe could come running out of the Jedi Temple, use magic to flip over a trained squad of Clone Troopers, kill 4 of them with his laser sword and a final one by Improved Reflecting a blaster bolt fired by a member of the elite 501st.

Do not get me wrong. If that works for your games, if that is what makes you and your players happy, then great (honestly). But that is simply not representative of the Universe that we're playing in or the Jedi Order that is arguably the most iconic aspect of it. Younglings and Initiates trained at the Temple are physically trained, mentally hardened, highly spiritual, broadly educated, magical children.

In all reality, they should start out better than their mundane counterparts, but that is not what we are talking about nor is it the goal of this tree. We are only presenting a specialization that allows easy access to talents that reflect that intense background training. Just like an Ace-Pilot character has a background that got them to the point they start play and is reflected by their specialization choice, characters that want to play this very specific concept from these specific Eras can have that option. If people don't want to use it: fine! It's not an overpowered tree, and it's not mandatory: it is merely an option just like every other universal spec.

Again, I will post a very detailed design document later that outlines the purpose, goal, structure, and reasoning for the spec in its entirety. If you don't like it, or it isn't of interest to you: no problem. You aren't required to look at it. For those of us that either are or might be interested, it'll be here.

I guess if you want to treat it that way you can, but we can see very real examples of them not being fluff in the source material. Saying that the commonalities are fluff implies that any 14 year old in the Star Wars Universe could come running out of the Jedi Temple, use magic to flip over a trained squad of Clone Troopers, kill 4 of them with his laser sword and a final one by Improved Reflecting a blaster bolt fired by a member of the elite 501st.

Do not get me wrong. If that works for your games, if that is what makes you and your players happy, then great (honestly). But that is simply not representative of the Universe that we're playing in or the Jedi Order that is arguably the most iconic aspect of it. Younglings and Initiates trained at the Temple are physically trained, mentally hardened, highly spiritual, broadly educated, magical children.

If you want 14 year olds that can simulate the movie, start the characters at 14 and give them 300xp at the start. That way they can have the ability to kick everyones' asses. Personally the movies are just that, movies. Characters do things all the time for the sake of the plot. I don't feel the need to replicate everything I see, so I just don't see the point.

To me this strikes me as wanting a unispec that has parry and reflect in it so one doesn't have to cross spec or take multiple specs to fulfill one's vision.

Yeah I would say Jedi in the age of the Jedi temples are younger with more XP under their belts due to intense training from a young age. That means lots of XP. Not needing an new spec that is an uber spec. Jedi are balanced with the other muggle careers by the expense of getting the force abilities. trying to fix that with a new spec is a bad idea.

It wasn't an über-spec, and it won't be when the revised is posted.

It isn't about shifting balance to favour "Jedi", and in fact the balance is preserved (IMHO).

There are no freebies. I'm a staunch believer in the difficulties that should be required to become a competent Force user.

It is about flavour, and how the F&D careers don't convey what we wanted or expected.

Personally I like that the parry and reflect talents are found only in the specs in the F&D careers. I think one of the balancing factors of F&D careers and specs is that they are just that and not unispecs. I think a unispec handing out parry and reflect talents would be too good to pass up what ever the flavour you want to put on it. And I can guarantee power gamers would use it to bolster any other F&D spec (s) they have for the lesser cost. Especially with parry, reflect, Force Rating and Dedication.

I think a unispec handing out parry and reflect talents would be too good to pass up what ever the flavour you want to put on it. And I can guarantee power gamers would use it to bolster any other F&D spec (s) they have for the lesser cost. Especially with parry, reflect, Force Rating and Dedication.

Agreed. and has been one of the biggest issues in deciding if I really do want to go ahead with retaining the Jedi Initiate as a universal specialization in my Ways of the Force, even if only handing out one rank of Parry and Reflect each. I had thought about two ranks of each, but felt that wound up crossing into the "too good to pass up" category for the reasons you mentioned, even if excluding Improved Parry.

It's probably not what the OP wants to hear, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to have "my PC has been trained in the Jedi Arts" be more of a character background element than something that requires the PC to have taken specific specializations.

If playing in other eras and you want PCs that are "properly trained Jedi," then I'd suggest simply adopting the Jedi career from DarthGM's Edge of the Jedi fan supplement and tweaking those specs to account for the new FaD material, as well as Daeglan's suggestion that a Padawan would be a teenager with a lot of XP under their belt; in short, start the entire group at Knight level (+150 XP) to reflect that they're all "better than the norm."

If playing in other eras and you want PCs that are "properly trained Jedi," then I'd suggest simply adopting the Jedi career from DarthGM's Edge of the Jedi fan supplement and tweaking those specs to account for the new FaD material, as well as Daeglan's suggestion that a Padawan would be a teenager with a lot of XP under their belt; in short, start the entire group at Knight level (+150 XP) to reflect that they're all "better than the norm."

DarthGM's supplement is nice work, but I think it still doesn't accomplish what we're after. Link here in case anyone needs a reference:

http://fragmentsfromtherim.blogspot.ca/2013/02/talent-crunch-jedi-knight-part-3.html

The main problem with the Jedi-as-career approach is that within a few hundred XP every Jedi is going to be Guardian+Consular+Sentinel (which is, of course, not about the names, but the flavour those careers contain). If we already know that "Jedi Knights" need at least a couple/few hundred XP to be properly represented, then every knight needs a couple of specs.

I like the F&D approach of having three specs per career because it gives plenty of room for exploration within a general area of expertise. It suggests that a "Master" would be someone who completed their chosen career and has begun another...and in the game mechanics, the amount of XP required supports that.

But none of the F&D specs are foundational. If you picked any of them and took enough XP to complete them, they still wouldn't represent what a Padawan of the OR would be learning.