My concern is that going this route makes a kind of... easy? Spec.

I don't think it'd be especially uber, but it would generate problems like in another thread where the OP there had a character concept that boiled down to "the most generic stereotypical Jedi possible, and not in a good way."

I'd actually feel a little better if this were a more conventional universal spec that required the player to pick one of the more focused Specs first, then they could take this as secondary.

Even then it's got so much good stuff in one package that it kinda bothers me... I mean, there's a reason only 1 saber tree has +1FR...

That said, I do see the "problem." While you CAN make a solid Padawan using the existing materials, getting all those odds and ends we see in the source material can be tricky....

If they're all JEDI, give them each one free rank in Lightsaber skill and the talents Parry and Reflect. Maybe even the power Sense. If they all get the same then they are all even. That can simulate the same basics.

Daaayum, whafrog, this spec better be all-that-and-a-bag-of-crisps after you've talked it up and taken all this heat.

Totes salivating over here, brah...

Daaayum, whafrog, this spec better be all-that-and-a-bag-of-crisps after you've talked it up and taken all this heat.

Totes salivating over here, brah...

Sometimes, this feels like people who don't like "liberal arts" colleges, where, in addition to learning the material you want, they make you pick up stuff you might feel you'll never need, and certainly don't want to pay for, "so you can be a more well-rounded student", and also so you can be worth more money. This sort of feels the same, where I might whine that I want to be a Force-specialized character, but need to grab two talents I don't as much want to get the one after them that I do. I might like more free-range choices, sometimes, so Atton and Kreia, two different characters, might both have their hide from/resist intrusion from the Force abilities, without having to grab some weird talents, but I do overall like these paths, in this system's case.

Also, unless you are an Order 66 survivor, it can be difficult to not be SOMETHING, and a "Jedi" on the side. Luke might've found a real Jedi Master, or two, and had some weeks to get some training in, but aren't even likely to find that, so building a "Jedi career" seems a bit off for the setting, until they make us a KOTOR-era setting (probably not, but i still feel that IS canon, if only because the SWTOR game is still supported, and because it will have next to no impact on Lucas's and Disney's movie, no matter what it says.) I know we maybe shouldn't have to play in the Empire Strikes Back time stamp only, but this book sort of reads that way, as the other two did, while we wait for agencies to tell us where what is now officially supported is now going. They don't want to mention the stuff they already killed, like NJO, and KOTOR is up in the air, for me, as to where it falls in the debate. It might be nice to just have a simple tree that gives me some Force Rating, Deflection, Reflection, Defense, and combat badassery with a lightsaber, without all the middlemen, but I've played enough games where too many characters were only good at one thing, one type of that thing, frequently, and lame at all else. I had to shape around their bad choices, or seem a prick.

That all being said, there aren't real Jedi to play as; just "regular" schmoes with a spark of the incredible, trying their hand at something they have next to know idea about, even if they do have Holocrons, or something.

That all being said, there aren't real Jedi to play as; just "regular" schmoes with a spark of the incredible, trying their hand at something they have next to know idea about, even if they do have Holocrons, or something.

I very much like the spirit of you post. However, the quoted text kind of irks me. And this isn't aimed at you at all, but more a general criticism of this notion-one held and espoused so much on this forum all the time. "These aren't real jedi".

You have a book filled with established jedi careers, jedi lightsaber forms, jedi abilities, jedi force powers, descriptions of jedi, jedi equipment (robes and such), jedi artifacts (holocrons), LIGHTSABERS-which by the way is "a jedi's weapon" stated by palpatine in official cannon, pictures of jedi, and pretty much just about everything else dealing with jedi. If it quacks like a duck...only problem is that these are kind of lame ducks.

Whafrog,

It's more appropriate to say that DarthGM's work doesn't accomplish what you're after, which is you want PCs to be able to have their cake and eat it too simply because "they're trained to be Jedi." And your claim of "well they'll just stack the specs" rings pretty hollow since that's pretty much what your proposed substitution idea would allow, stacking whatever specs are already in their initial career with your Jedi universal spec.

That's the fundamental flaw with your substitution approach of letting a PC break the established rules and have their initial specialization be what will most likely amount to an utterly-broken specialization that lets said PCs get various cool lightsaber-based stuff on top of Dedication and Force Rating, something that only Niman Disciple provides, which itself doesn't include the Improved Parry talent and has Force Rating require a lot of work to get to.

The book itself is very much upfront about the fact that the PCs are not actual Jedi of any sort (particularly starting out). It's only been via fan speculation (of which I've been guilty) that it was presumed that FaD would cover "actual Jedi" rather than the actual focus on Force users of a more general type, though including some with knowledge of one (maybe more) Lightsaber Forms.

If you really want the PCs to be Jedi and require it to be reflected in what careers and specializations they have, then I stand by my suggestion to start with DarthGM's Jedi career, and then modify the various Jedi specs to incorporate the new material. And if you've really got a bee in your bonnet about stacking the three Jedi specs, simply add a house rule that a PC can only take one Jedi specialization, and afterwards must take specs that aren't attached to the Jedi career.

It's more appropriate to say that DarthGM's work doesn't accomplish what you're after...

Well, yeah, did you notice that's what I said? The "we" was in reference to myself and the other person (Smog) designing it.

... which is you want PCs to be able to have their cake and eat it too simply because "they're trained to be Jedi."

You have no basis for asserting my motivation here. Nor how much cake there is to have or eat because, and speaking of basis,...

That's the fundamental flaw with your substitution approach of letting a PC break the established rules and have their initial specialization be what will most likely amount to an utterly-broken specialization that lets said PCs get various cool lightsaber-based stuff on top of Dedication and Force Rating, something that only Niman Disciple provides, which itself doesn't include the Improved Parry talent and has Force Rating require a lot of work to get to.

"most likely"? I'm so glad you've already decided. You really have no idea, do you?

I'm sure you'll find plenty to complain about when the spec is completed. So, patience young Padawan, you'll get a valid chance to express your ire. Right now you're just punching at shadows.

Daaayum, whafrog, this spec better be all-that-and-a-bag-of-crisps after you've talked it up and taken all this heat.

Pressure is on... Actually, I don't think I've been "talking it up" more than defending the concept. I think the concept is solid. What's up for debate is what's *in* the spec. The reason I took the OP down is because I inadvertently jumped the gun, due to a miscommunication and mistake on my end with Smog about whether he wanted a unified effort to go public. So we wait...

Honestly, the more I look at this, the more I think what you want is a starting package for those that started as Jedi Initiates and moved up the ladder.

Jedi Initiate Package

• each character starts with one rank in Lightsaber and Knowledge (Lore).
• Each character starts with one rank in both Parry and Reflect.
• Each character starts with the Sense Basic Power.
• Each character starts with a basic lightsaber.

This way each character has the same basics for having gone through the same Initiate process. Then they can customize from there, including spending starting money on their lightsaber.

Just giving them another spec to choose from is not going to simulate the characters all having had the same basic training because no two players will use it the same way. Players will just cherry pick the abilities they want like they already do now. All your going to do, by making it a unispec, is make it cheaper to get and they will just have another spec to wade through.

I would have no problem with a Universal specialisation for F&D. But asother have said it can't be called Jedior Padawan or anything like.

Force Sensitive Apprentice is generic enough like Exile and Emergent to cover Jedi, Sith, Nightsisters etc. And yes you coud argue that Jedi and Sith would emphasize different skills and talents in their initialo training, but then F&D makes clear, not a book for those that want to run full-on Jedi Knights and Masters in the era between Yavin and New Republic. Force Sensitive Apprentice would represent those that have received SOME structured training be it from a former Padawan, a Holocron or some hedge wizard that lives out in the sticks and is trying to avoid any undue attention. Not as complete as full-on decade of Jedi/Sith training but better than learning purely on your own.

In terms of powers you could either give Force Sensitive Apprentice a mixture of the xisting Force Sensitive Exile/Emergent Talent Trees or come up with one or more new trees that combine elements of two or more of the existing 5 trees. NIOT cherrypicking but a spread of talents so that more general and well rounded. Jack of all trades, master of none.

I like the idea that Force Sensitive Apprentice could get Lightsaber training. Maybe just 1-2 ranks and maybe as part of a talent tree rtaher than straight away as sepcialisation skill, so that still have to earn it and invest in it.

I saw earlier comments discussing whether both Block and Deflect could be taken in this specialisation, thereby avoiding the need to dip into multiple specialisation. Surely a way to limit this being the easy "no brainer" choice is to price it accordingly. They could be 25 point skills, maybe in two separate talemt trees (so that can still take as part of specialisation, but at a cost of 25 points each plus cost to reach bottom row (presumably minimum of at least) another 30 points.

And if that was still too good/obvious choice, could always limit the number of horizontal lines in talent trees. Thus to get the cherry on top, would first have to ensure covered all of the cheaper lines on tree(s).

Cheers

James

... The Initiates all take the same basic lessons as they move through the Academy, with each Clan receiving some private instruction by the mentor of their Clan (Yoda for Bear Clan, etc). Once all of the lessons are complete, the Initiates go through their trials which are a comprehensive series of tests checking the Initiates retention of their teachings...

You've obviously never gone to school. If you did, you'd know that a statement like this is complete nonsense. Taking the same training does not mean that you have learned the same things or gained the same skills. Look at every kid coming out of China, Korea, India, or Japan. Sure, they take the same schooling and focus on the same kinds of learning, but they all have different grades, experiences, hobbies, and abilities. They have different natural talents and different affinities. Just because a single all took a single class together doesn't mean they are all exactly the same.

Let me try this topic from a different approach. The concern raised by whafrog in post #25 is that there is no foundational spec for Force users. But is there a foundational spec that represents the base training for a bounty hunter? No. What about a smuggler? Nope. Rebel ace? Still no. Do any careers have foundational specializations? No, because all specializations are foundational specializations. So why does F&D need to be different? Why is it so hard to make a Force sensitive 10 year old? Why exactly do Force users need a foundational specialization when no other character type does? Donovan explained this already. People are getting far too attached to the Jedi label. You can already portray temple Jedi with what we already have. We don't need a label to replace everyone's starting specialization, just because someone is caught up on that label.

All of the explanations that have been made still don't explain what this would accomplish, aside from making all temple Jedi exactly the same. This idea doesn't add anything to the game that isn't already there.

You've obviously never gone to school. If you did, you'd know ... taking the same training does not mean that you have learned the same things

This was too great not to quote.

Logical contradiction and ad hominem attack aside, I'd like you to read the thread I'll be posting in several hours, Scooter. You raise several points and questions that I address in there: points that I think are completely valid. I'd like you to see my justifications and then continue the debate. I'd prefer that you do it civilly and with tact, but that's certainly up to you.

edit: you actually brought up one new point that I hadn't heard yet, and it has been included in my new write-up. So, thank you (genuinely).

Let me try this topic from a different approach. The concern raised by whafrog in post #25 is that there is no foundational spec for Force users. But is there a foundational spec that represents the base training for a bounty hunter? No. What about a smuggler? Nope. Rebel ace? Still no. Do any careers have foundational specializations? No, because all specializations are foundational specializations.

No. They are careers which already are assumed roles which represents a character's background. And as such, already have all the requisite training, talents, and skills that accurately represents it available to them from the start. Han solo is a smuggler and probably has scoundrel as his main spec. You can easily make a Han Solo, from the start, without having to jump through illogical loopholes. Give him Knight level xp, and you can easily make him Han Solo we see by the end of RoTJ, all by taking at most two/maybe three specializations. You probably don't even need the full 150 xp. You can accomplish this pretty much with all OT non-force users.

The problem is that you have a heck of a hard time doing that with force users. And if the answer is "just give more xp", then that's a real problem. Players shouldn't have to jump through hoops, or have so much anxiety, waste X amount of game sessions, or require an xp handicap, just to have to be on par with their counterparts.

There is a reasonable middle ground somewhere. I think a decent universal spec, some buffing of talents, or something should be more than enough for players to create capable force users while preserving balance. This is not a zero sum game where by the only way non-force users can only recieve enjoyment is by nerfing force users.

I started following these sorts of discussions feeling like a basic universal temple-trained jedi skill set was missing from the choices. However, I think I hit on my problem. There are more choices than we need for movie jedi. Almost all of the Jedi we encounter, except for a couple of characters at the jedi temple in TCW cartoon, are some sort of lightsaber-based warrior first and foremost. Pretty much all of them would have started their training with one of the lightsaber specs. Those specs can provide the capabilities laid out by MouthyMerc.

Any other capability a temple-raised jedi brings to the table is secondary to their initial combat training. For the characters that favor a non-lightsaber based approach more strongly, they are either found working within the temple itself or otherwise pursuing temple business off-screen.

Obviously, we can run our jedi however we want without the movie/cartoon based baggage and the variety of specs in this RPG support that. But the truth is, any of the combat focused specs capture the basic feel of a movie/cartoon jedi well enough.

The actual full design document and specialization has been posted, please read the full design document and continue the discussion there. Thanks, guys.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/127046-jedi-initiate-universal-specialization-full-design-write-up-inside/

The problem is that you have a heck of a hard time doing that with force users. And if the answer is "just give more xp", then that's a real problem. Players shouldn't have to jump through hoops, or have so much anxiety, waste X amount of game sessions, or require an xp handicap, just to have to be on par with their counterparts.

The problem isn't that Force-users aren't on par with other non-Force using characters. Most feel the ability is equivilant at the same XP level for both characters. The issue is the expectation of ability for Force users and Jedi specifically. People have a certain expectation of the abilities of Jedi out of the gate. Unfortunately those expectations put Jedi at an XP level well above other non-force careers. Hence the reason "Knight" level and higher XP starting levels being suggested to reach those expectations.

The actual full design document and specialization has been posted, please read the full design document and continue the discussion there. Thanks, guys.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/127046-jedi-initiate-universal-specialization-full-design-write-up-inside/

Actually whafrog, I've got plenty to go on in assessing your "motivation," both in this thread and in other posts you've made about what Force and Destiny is and more particularly what it is not.

And what Smog posted pretty much proves that the concerns I raised in this thread about what the real intent of this proposed universal spec of yours and the proposed notion to allow a PC to start with said spec in place of their usual career based spec would be... well, they were pretty much on the money in terms of "the player would need to have sawdust for brains to pass this spec up."

Just kicking around the ideas that have been presented, maybe part of the problem is you guys have been trying to make a full spec following normal conventions for a normal spec. What about something more unconventional?

Think of a universal spec (so you still gotta get a primary spec) but its only one or two columns wide and limits things to only what you need and nothing else.

So something like (and I'm totally pulling this outta my butt)

Prereq fr1+

Skills none

Uncanny senses . ......... Uncanny reactions

..... ! ,........................................... !

Sense (force power)..+... Enhance (fp)

....... ! ..........,................................ !

Sense danger ........................ parry

........ ! .......................................... !

Touch of fate ......................... reflect

...... !

Balance (30xp)

....... !

Fr+1 (30xp)

And that's it. No well rounded, no dedication, mandatory force powers, no easy saber as career, and fr+1 (and most other stuff) is cheaper if you go through a conventional career.

But, if you want to get all the generic boring jedi stuff outta the way fast...

Anyway, as you know I'm pretty happy with what we've got in the books, so maybe I'm just ranting, but i also like to solve problems, and thinking inside the box clearly wasn't working here....