So, I think we all know that, in the minds of some people, FR is a direct scale of skill for a Jedi (or whatever Force-user you are playing). I'm not saying it is so, and I wholly agree that a low-FR character can still do some rather cool stuff, but if you happen to remember the old days in EotE, when many griped that the pinnacle of Force power was 2, and more than half of those folks were trying to rationalize Dedication as a viable option to further boost that trait (nope, it wasn't), and now that you are in the "book for Force users", you want to reach a more "respectable" rating, such as 3 (as a Force-user, it is what you are trying to maximize), what is the most direct way? Maybe the most realistic way? I was looking through the book, and, like anywhere else, Force Rating was either the last, or second to last row of talents, making each point a nice, fair investment. If you want to say "I'm a better Force-sensitive then the other books", and we know that some characters, like Luke, Vader, the Emperor, and others, all get up to higher numbers, how might they, or we, go about that?

In the other FFG games, the ones for 40k stuff, they incorporate Elite Advances, more expensive options to take benefits, such as Talents, out of sequence, if the GM offers it, or allows it, while their more recent stuff is more open-ended in build, meaning you can increase, say your Psy Rating, at your own discretion, if you can afford the points. The Star Wars games, I believe, don't allow for these, so you have to weave through the trees, getting to the near bottom of any of them before you get another Force dice. How would you do it, and, if you accept that lower FR is perfectly fine, as long as you can branch out through further powers, giving you a wider array of options, how much FR do you feel is necessary, before you can stop grabbing new trees, just to B-line through a path of 4-5 Talents, just to get to the next Force Rating booster?

Okay, that was a long read, sorry. Thanks for getting here, and I anticipate answers.

Having to weave through the trees is one of the things I like about the game design. I expect to have to work through most of a tree to get FR higher, it I think it would lead to more balanced characters on the whole. If I ever get to run the character I have in mind, I won't be bee-lining for FR any more quickly than is necessary to fuel basic Sense and Enhance, and maybe once I get to FR2 I would think about the more active powers...by which time I'd probably have most of the first tree filled out and would be looking towards the next one.

Specialization inside Carriers are pretty close between them (or use to). So, a character that pick up the three specs from a carrier can achieve "with certain logical progression" between 3 and 4 Force Rating.

You can consider that a PC with that FR is a really powerful one. Other possibilities, following the rules mechanics to build up chars, you can achieve more FR, but as I said, the natural progression will let you have FR 3-4 with an aproximated cost of 200-350 XP.

Just going to throw out there that I much prefer the talent system of the original FFG 40k RPG systems compared to the new way xp is spent. Talent trees create more well-rounded characters in my opinion since you can't just, say, buy your force rating to 5 with all your xp from the start leaving you with nothing else. Sure, savants can be interesting but more often than not they end up overpowering the one thing they do and struggling at everything else.

As for how to get some awesome Force Rating with the current system, I'm assuming you're asking what the best ways to buy FR under the current talent system are. So I'll just paste in my list of ways to get relatively cheap FR. These costs assume that:

1. you do not start with the specialization or career in question; subtract 30 if it's your starting spec, subtract 10 if it's in-career but not your starting spec

2. it is the first specialization you buy after your starting spec; add 10*[previously bought additional specializations] if it's not the first one you buy

3. universal specs have 20 cost included with them and cannot be selected as your first specialization.

4. you buy straight down the tree to get the force rating ignoring everything else.

Sage: 2 for 165 (82.5 each)

Seer: 2 for 170 (85 each)

Pathfinder: 95

Force-Sensitive Emergent: 95

Artisan: 100

Aggressor: 105

Protector: 105

Force-Sensitive Exile: 115

Healer: 120

Advisor: 120

Hunter: 120

Starfighter Ace: 125

Shadow: 130

Peacekeeper: 150

Niman Disciple: 220

So, starting with Sage, you can get FR 3 for 135XP, 5 for 305, 6 for 410, 7 for 525, etc. Though, obviously you'll want to buy some other stuff (like, oh I don't know, force powers) along the way. Additionally, you'll want to look at each tree to make sure the stuff on the way to the FR is actually stuff you want. If you're making your way through the trees on less direct routes, other specs may end up being cheaper.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/114874-minimum-xp-for-force-ratingdedication-by-specialty/

As has been said, starting with the OP, focusing on FR is a very understandable, but myopic benchmark.

In EotE and AoR I find that weaving a thoughtful path through the Exile/Emergent trees produces a formidable Force-user well before the FR is raised.

It sorta comes down to definitions (doesn't it always?): Do I want a formidably capable protagonist of a Force-user or do I want to get really good at the handful of Force powers that struck my fancy?

Which is the maximum FR you can have then? 17??

Which is the maximum FR you can have then? 17??

18. You gain 1 for free from any F&D career or the two universals.

Wonder how the "important" characters, like Vader, Yoda, and the Emperor, are supposed to have gotten their FR 5-6. I'm not saying they're not high-cost characters, certainly, but with every FR talent near the distant end of its path, and some of them being a bit more "specialized" then a 4 tree character, I'm sort of missing a "spend XP to raise this talent" thing to raise Force Rating. I'll say that I'm rather glad that it's controlled in acquisition, but I sometimes get sad at NPCs who CAN'T be rebuilt by anything resembling the PC construction rubric; they're hodge-podge "whatever they need", and that can be irritating for one seeking to emulate.

Wonder how the "important" characters, like Vader, Yoda, and the Emperor, are supposed to have gotten their FR 5-6. I'm not saying they're not high-cost characters, certainly, but with every FR talent near the distant end of its path, and some of them being a bit more "specialized" then a 4 tree character, I'm sort of missing a "spend XP to raise this talent" thing to raise Force Rating. I'll say that I'm rather glad that it's controlled in acquisition, but I sometimes get sad at NPCs who CAN'T be rebuilt by anything resembling the PC construction rubric; they're hodge-podge "whatever they need", and that can be irritating for one seeking to emulate.

Well, Yoda was like 900 years old. He had mastered all of the lightsaber forms and gotten pretty much whatever he wanted from the talent trees. With your PC, when his age you reach, look as good you might.

The others don't actually take that much XP to build. We never see Yoda or Sidious as starting characters in the movies. We see Vader as a starting character...as a kid with no Force training at all. If you want to build them in-system, you just have to remember they got a ton of XP between the movies.

Wonder how the "important" characters, like Vader, Yoda, and the Emperor, are supposed to have gotten their FR 5-6. I'm not saying they're not high-cost characters, certainly, but with every FR talent near the distant end of its path, and some of them being a bit more "specialized" then a 4 tree character, I'm sort of missing a "spend XP to raise this talent" thing to raise Force Rating. I'll say that I'm rather glad that it's controlled in acquisition, but I sometimes get sad at NPCs who CAN'T be rebuilt by anything resembling the PC construction rubric; they're hodge-podge "whatever they need", and that can be irritating for one seeking to emulate.

Easy. They're all NPCs.

By the time Vader shows up in the Original Trilogy, he's been re-built as an NPC from the ground up, where previously he'd been operating under PC guidelines, and likely making use of a Jedi career and attending specializations. Yoda and the Emperor were plot devices from the start, so they had whatever Force Rating that GM Lucas best fit them.

Frankly, I'm glad that FFG isn't going with the "NPCs have to follow all the same construction rules as PCs" that dominated 3rd edition D&D. It makes on-the-fly NPC creation a lot simpler if the GM can simply eyeball what stats an NPC would need for a situation or combat encounter that was sprung on them by the players.

Yeah, I can see that, I guess. It's just a bit irritating in the back of my mind when I see someone do something cool, maybe even amazing, and then find out that because I'm a PC, I CAN'T do the same thing. Some of those things are things one shouldn't do, or maybe even want to do, but still, it's the people around me who might inspire me to do, or not to do things, and that tends to fall apart when the GM says "oh, YOU can't do that, because you are limited by these rules. What? Why can HE do that? Well, he's mine, and also, they just don't make them like they used to Maybe you should've lived THEN."

Of course, I can see the opposites, too. In D&D, I HATED when they statted an NPC, but they couldn't include something that that character had, because it hadn't been devised, yet. In 3.5 Forgotten Realms (the last time I liked D&D), Fzoul Chembryl is the Chosen of, and High Priest of Bane, the God of Tyranny. Later, another book revealed the PrC for Bane's clergy, the Dreadmasters. Fzoul didn't have levels of it, which makes sense, but was dumb, and wasn't even fixable, as he was missing some bits for it (Leadership). Saga was little better, with several important people getting stats in the first book, and THEN various things they were known for getting written up, but THEY don't have, simply because of writing order. Still, I do prefer "officially" statted NPCs, even if I might have to tweak them, so I digress.

Despite my special-snowflake syndrome, as I prove I have on the 40k FFG forums, I don't want to be a Yoda, so I guess I'm only whining a little. I just don't always like paths that it looks like I MUST follow, but others didn't. There are two Force Piloting talents it looks like Yoda would have to possess, but I doubt he's got the skills for that, and such; he gets around it by NPC cherry-picking syndrome.

ummm PCs can pretty much do everything an NPC can do. NPCs don't really have any NPC exclusive talents other than adversary. Which PC's can easily duplicate with other talents.

Not saying they are, but as some NPCs are just a hodge podge of the relevant things they'll need to be them, and not "weighed down" by what some might see as unnecessary talents (you as GM might just decide how their skill checks go, if it isn't a combat skill, or an opposed something skill, like dueling hackers, or the lightsaber battle between the Jedi and their Inquisitor nemesis. I'll admit that some of it must be more my cheating, and looking at the stat block of an NPC, which as a player, I can't do when the GM introduces a new NPC, but while I don't really favor the "just give me a "you can take this" tree that has just some Force Rating, some deflect and reflect, and some Force or lightsaber boosters, without the skill modifiers, or the "once an encounter, you can...." talents that fill the column between what I want, I like to think that most NPCs are built on the same framework, and maybe went through the same trials and tribulations I did, minus the GM arbitrarily giving them awesome equipment, while they often feel more to me streamlining that gets more for less, but not for me. Instead of the PCs seeming the most important, for their mighty shirts, they're more the only ones expected to work for it feeling. Of course, as I said, some of that, at least, is just me. I know how much work would go into me getting FR 4, while an NPC "just has it to have it", and in actuality, I can handle that.

Is there a mechanical reason, beyond the GM smelling shenanigans, to stop a F&D character from getting into FSExile or Emergent? Certainly, I can see some players looking at their tree for, say Sentinel Artisan, and seeing a 70-point hurdle to FR +1, and thinking that the 20 points for Exile seem a better early investment; you get FR +1, and some access to a set of interesting talents, in addition to the other talents Artisan gives you. One might make an argument that it is a perfectly legitimate purchase, and has some talents you actually want, but someone else, possibly your GM, might see it as you already possess a Career that gave you "free FR", and awakened you to the Force; you need to pay out the nose, like anyone else, to push this rare resource higher, and you are only doing it for the comparably free permanent boost to FR.

So, would it be mechanically impossible? I doubt the other books mention it because there was no alternative way in either, and F&D beta limits itself to itself, as it overall should, at this stage. Would the GM probably just say no for the above "you might be munchkining? Is there a good, legitimate reason NOT to do so, and seemingly get the second Force dice more easily/sooner than you might? Saying "no, it's cheating", is fine, but I want to know if the book or system specifically disallows it, or if the GM is just obligated to be paying attention, and fiat it on the grounds of balance? You might not be the only Force-sensitive in the party, but if they don't all do that, you'll definitely be ahead of them, as it were, and for little work. You are paying something, so it might be legit-ish, but is there an official stance? Maybe give the talent access, but not the FR+? Curious.

Is there a mechanical reason, beyond the GM smelling shenanigans, to stop a F&D character from getting into FSExile or Emergent? Certainly, I can see some players looking at their tree for, say Sentinel Artisan, and seeing a 70-point hurdle to FR +1, and thinking that the 20 points for Exile seem a better early investment; you get FR +1, and some access to a set of interesting talents, in addition to the other talents Artisan gives you.

You can buy into FSEx and FSEm if you so choose, but they do not confer +1 Force Rating, only an initial Force Rating of 1. If you already have a Force Rating you only get the spec. You must wade through the spec to the Force Rating talent to increase your Force Rating.

Very good. Glad to see it isn't a little loophole to argue over, then. Thank you.

Not saying they are, but as some NPCs are just a hodge podge of the relevant things they'll need to be them, and not "weighed down" by what some might see as unnecessary talents (you as GM might just decide how their skill checks go, if it isn't a combat skill, or an opposed something skill, like dueling hackers, or the lightsaber battle between the Jedi and their Inquisitor nemesis. I'll admit that some of it must be more my cheating, and looking at the stat block of an NPC, which as a player, I can't do when the GM introduces a new NPC, but while I don't really favor the "just give me a "you can take this" tree that has just some Force Rating, some deflect and reflect, and some Force or lightsaber boosters, without the skill modifiers, or the "once an encounter, you can...." talents that fill the column between what I want, I like to think that most NPCs are built on the same framework, and maybe went through the same trials and tribulations I did, minus the GM arbitrarily giving them awesome equipment, while they often feel more to me streamlining that gets more for less, but not for me. Instead of the PCs seeming the most important, for their mighty shirts, they're more the only ones expected to work for it feeling. Of course, as I said, some of that, at least, is just me. I know how much work would go into me getting FR 4, while an NPC "just has it to have it", and in actuality, I can handle that.

That would be because GMs need to run all of the NPCs and thus having all of the options that a PC has gets in the way. GMs need slimmed down characters.

Also, the only thing stopping a PC from eventually having a Force Rating of 4 or 5 (or higher) is the XP investment required.

If you pick your additional specializations right, you can arrange it so that you've got duplicate instances of non-ranked talents, allowing you to skip over those on your way to further Force Rating talents. Just taking Seer and Sage nets a PC a Force Rating of 5, as both specs have two instances of Force Rating (but no Dedication talents).

Yoda's had over 800 years to get to be as badass as he is with both the Force and using a lightsaber. And Palpatine, being a villain, naturally cheated to be just as powerful

In attempting to compare the movie characters to our PC's, the thing you have to keep in mind is not only was Yoda 900 years old, and actively practicing (we can assume) throughout that time, but Obi-Wan and Anakin were also trained from a young age and participated in the clone wars (massive amounts of experience). Using the rules in the books, you can make a pretty impressive character along the lines of any of the movie characters but you need to think about the years of training a Jedi would receive as a youngling (translated into xp), then the xp gained from his/her padawan years, then add the xp for the missions the counsel would send them on after becoming Knights. We could easily be talking 1000+ xp characters.

We could easily be talking 1000+ xp characters.

GM Windu: You have 1,000 XP, but we do not grant you the rank of master.

Anakin Skywalker: What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It's unfair! I have hundreds more XP than any of you. How can you have 1000 XP and not be a master?