The new Ancient Ones are not, in my opinion, balanced. It is easier to beat most of them with larger teams than with smaller teams - considerably so.

Look at, for example, Quachil Uttaus. Assume, for the sake of argument, that each Investigator in the team is rolling on average X dice (regardless of how many Investigators are in the team). In a one player game, you'd roll X dice then get devoured. In a two player game, you'd both roll X dice then player 1 would be devoured then player 2 would roll X dice then be devoured; for a grand total of 3X dice when you're only looking for twice as many successes as in a one player game. In a three player game you'd be rolling 6X dice in total, looking for just three times as many successes. By the time you get to 8 players, it's 36X dice looking for just 8 times as many successes. The mechanics easily favour the larger teams.

Bokrug is another good example. It's far easier to buy off the Beings Of Ib if you have more players collecting trophies. You can collect gates and monsters far more easily.

I'm not necessarily saying this is good or bad, just pointing it out. The Ancient Ones in the base set were, at least in theory, balanced for teams of any size - or at least closer to being balanced. But I wouldn't recommend going up against most of the new Ancient Ones with anything less than 5 or 6 Investigators ...

Stenun said:

With QU though, he's -3 with double immunity (and eats your allies to boot), you'll need a buff group of investigators regardless. Fight of 4 or 5, getting 1-2 dice per turn isn't gonna cut it.

Oh sure, he's still tough no matter what, I'm not disputing that. My point wasn't that the Ancient Ones get easy with larger teams, just that they get easier. They're still hard, but the way they have been designed gives an advantage to teams with more Investigators. Whereas Ancient Ones like Cthluhu or Yig are roughly the same difficulty regardless of the size of the team.

Stenun said:

I disagree... Sealing victories are much easier with larger teams, whereas combat victories tend to be more difficult.

I agree with the thread-title, but the old Ancient Ones were actually easier to defeat in the final combat with fewer investigators. There's simply not enough good equipment for every member of a large team (at least not in the base game alone), whereas a properly "tuned-up" killing-machine can defeat Cthulhu alone.

So, in effect, these new Ancient Ones turn that aspect of the game on its head - which is a good thing, IMO. However, I still hate it how weak the old Ancient Ones now are compared to these new ones.

-Villain

otoh, and Uttanis is a prime example here: As invesitgators are Devourerded, the remaining equipment available to investigators is better. Example, poor wilson is 1st player in final combat against Uttanis, so he hands his shotgun over to someone else, since he knows he is gonna be doomed.

Similar against Zhar, Chaugnar Faugn, Rhan-Tegoth, Ghantanothoa and Nygotha, where the investigator who is in danger of being devourered will know so, and therefore have an oppurtunity to pas equipment off to other players, thereby preserving good stuff. Therefore, I agree with the OP in their assessment that most of the new AOs get much easier with larger teams.

awp832 said:

Except equipment doesn't matter with the double immunities. Oh, and I've houseruled the shotgun (and, umm, Azure Flame ?) long ago that you don't get 2 successes if you roll a 6 against an Immune monster/GOO.

First, that's only against Quachil Uttaus, I mentioned several other ancient ones in which passing equipment still is exceptionally helpful.

Second, house rules are house rules, and third, yes, equipment can still matter, even against Q-U. Red Sign is perhaps the best example. Voice of Ra, Cigarrette Case, foresee, and Bull Whip are others.

awp832 said:

Red Sign is 100% useless, it only affects monsters, GOOs aren't. Well they are, but not in game terms. As to only QU, he's the one I have most gripe with (though remains to be seen how fun his slumbering ability is). Zhar only partially. There's also that Pink Elephant (discard 3 Clues or Ally).

I disagree with you about Red Sign, Dam. The AO's toughness obviously can't be lowered, but you can still ignore one of it's abilities.

Evidence to support this comes from Red Sign vs Bind Monster. Both mention monsters and monster toughness specifically. Bind monster has the added line of text that specifically states that it doesn't work on Ancient Ones, Red Sign does not have that text.

awp832 said:

Put this in the F.A.Q.

awp832 said:

Don't know why one has mention of AOs and the other doesn't but both use keyword "monster", which are clearly defined as the chits. GOOs aren't monsters.

goo is not monster

peanut butter is not jelly

old ao's too weak? that is what heralds are for, just use the heralds for the old old ones lol and not the new ones! there u go balanced!! just solved everyones problems on this thread!

pittplayer said:

Sadly, even the BGotW Herald isn't enough for the weakest of the weak (Azzy, Shudde, Tsathoggua, Cthulhu) when they slumber. If they wake up, 3 of those 4 are as bad as it gets.

azzy with groth (sorry spelling) is pretty hard!

I'm less inclined to "pick on" the IH Ancient Ones for being "weaker" because I find their game effects to be so different than I expected. Most of the AOs that came before have some global effect that's "on" the whole game. FFG shook that up a couple of times with "Monster Surge" AOs, and I rather like Y'Golonac, who makes you a bit more nervous about drawing for an Item. But more than half the IH AOs are "recliner" AOs: they just sit back and wait to activate while the players squirm every time they're asked to "spin the wheel":

Nyogtha: "Go on...draw your encounter." [Poor Kate misses out on this one!]

Rhan-Tegoth: "Go on...pick a monster."

Zhar: "Go on...roll the dice."

Quachil Uttaus: "Go on...pick a card."

Ghatanothoa: "Go on...flip a token."

Some have already pooh-poohed this stuff because I guess they just don't feel it, that edginess when the AO sits up in its recliner and smiles, waiting for you to play their game for a few seconds. Well, I do, and I dig it. I'm not sure why I do and others don't, but it obviously has everything to do with me, because we're all playing with the same sheets and cheets, so the player is the only variable. So I can only claim, on my end, "I get out of it what I put into it."

so true jgt so true, the new AO's arent harder just different in a fun way.

I've been doing my 1d6 method, so I haven't seen all the new AOs. But I can comment some:

5p Quachil Uttaus with all expansion and "anti-dilution": QU produced one of the most suspenseful games I've played. I love this AO, even though he's impossible in final combat. I grabbed an extremely close victory by seals.

4p Cthulhu with IH: Innsmouth is a pretty active place, and an extremely dangerous one. Cthulhu's a bit annoying, but the two games I've played like this were won practically with no effort or looming threat.

4p Bokrug with IH: Bokrug's ability is noticeable during the game. But if you buy off all his Ibs, he's a final combat pushover. He should have been -4, and gotten -1 for each Being of Ib. I barely lost final combat, but only because one of the Being remained, and was going to be bought off before the fight started.

6p Chaugnar Faugn with all-expansion "anti-dilution": Wasn't a big problem. Victory by closing gates, after four seals were down.

4p Rhan-Tegoth, all-expansion "anti-dilution": Quite a challenge. Only saw one Cultist, but it was enough. We weren't very close before final combat, and we sure as hell didn't make any headway during.

4p Eihort, all-expansion anti-dilution: Only got out three seals before he awoke. But I guess it wouldn't be a signature Eihort battle if two of the characters with two brood tokens after start of battle didn't each roll a 1. Ugh.

4p Tsathoggua, all-expansion anti-dilution: SKIN OF OUR TEETH. Somehow we managed to eke out a seal victory. But the doom track was one away from being filled, Innsmouth was overrun with monsters, the DH track was at 2, and two rifts were open. Four investigators was a bad idea. Three out of four personal stories failed too.

5p Nyogtha, all-expansion anti-dilution: It was very close, but the sixth seal was eventially lain. The Tendril appeared only once, but it smacked up Tommy Muldoon and someone inherited some clues. Too bad he himself had lost 5.

6p Atlach-Nacha, all-expansion anti-dilution: Wasn't as frightening as I thought. We only needed 4 gate trophies. Seems that with so many possible gate locations, the chances of a gate opening on a seal are pretty slim anyway, so a seal-victory is actually MORE plausible with all the expansions. But we closed all the gates and won.

If anything this has taught me that my theory is abundantly true: To stand a chance to win, you need to use 2 investigators, plus 1 for each board expansion. You go below that, the luck of the gates goes too far out of control, and victories are more a matter of chance than strategy. Of course, I have no idea how this works without the anti-dilution. I suspect 4 investigators with all expansions is sufficient then.