And I can definitely question why you want to play a game when your actions show you don't.

Which actions are those?

In the spirit of getting this conversation back on track...
I had this situation come up at last year's World's tournament, and although it wound up being a moot point, I'd be happy to share what I intended to do.

I'd gotten off to a rough start, going 0-3 in a couple of close matches, and wound up against another 0-3 player who seemed to be taking it much worse than me. He was running a good old fashioned Rebel Convoy; I had four Blues with Advanced Sensors. I managed to take his ORS very early - basically the second round in which we exchanged fire, after he attempted to block with it and I used AdvS to sidestep it and land point blank shots. He got frustrated.

I started picking apart his Y-wings and was on my way to running away with the game anyway, when in a moment of frustration he tried to K-turn his Y-wings on consecutive turns. He realized immediately what he'd done, and handed his dials over to me. I took a look at the board, and was in the process of setting the first one's maneuver when he had second thoughts and said "you know what? Forget it - I concede. Good game."

I felt for the guy - I think he'd driven a ways to get to the tournament, his dice had been ice cold all day. It was six rounds of qualifying. So I could hardly blame the guy when he called a ref over to report the score and announce he was dropping. I took very little pleasure in winning that way, and I felt horrible for the guy.

That being said, had he let me finish setting the dials, one Y-wing was going RIGHT off the board, and the other one was going to land in a spot where I suspected recovery would be nigh impossible.

I felt bad for the guy, but I was there to win. I hadn't won yet, and I saw an opportunity to turn things around - and in fact I finished out the tournament 3-3, going on a very respectable run and clawing my way back into the main room after getting booted way out to the sticks.

Could I have let the guy change his moves? Sure. Would it have had much effect on the eventual outcome of the game? I doubt it, especially the way he was rolling. But my opponent made a critical mistake, and I saw, and was about to take, the opportunity to punish him for it. And it never crossed my mind it might be looked at as "poor sportsmanship" on my part.

I played organized, adult rec hockey for a bunch of years, and it seems to me, coming from that environment, that tabletop gamers are one of the few groups which seem to often feel a bit entitled to be allowed to undo moves, fix mistakes, call for do-overs. In hockey, if a defenseman makes a bad pass and hands the puck to you right in front of their net for the easy tap in, you tap the **** puck in. If he wants to hand you a gift goal, that's his problem. You don't catch the puck, pass it back to him, and go "no problem, man - go ahead and redo your pass." If you try and block a shot and wind up tipping it past your goaltender, you don't get to declare a mulligan. You made a mistake, you own it, and you try to play smarter and work harder to keep it from costing your team the game.

So I don't say that to knock on anybody. In friendly games, certainly, I'll allow for the occasional whoops when someone messes up and wants to fix it. Particularly if I'm testing a new build or something, and the point is to see how it performs, not to fly it without error, friends and I will often hand wave and redo a move if we did something boneheaded. You can't learn much about a build if you get your left and right reversed and fly it off the table on the first move of the game - my wife actually did that once, FYI.

In a competitive environment, I'm there to win, and especially in game with so much luck of the dice, I'll capitalize on any and all mistakes the other guy makes and not lose any sleep over it. But as I said, coming from a sport like hockey, where everything happens so fast, I just never really learned to spend much time hand-wringing or second-guessing, let alone requesting a second chance.

Re: OP: off the board, no question. In fact, doing anything else would be poor sportsmanship because going easy on someone like that condescending behavior when you do it in a game against anyone who isn't a small child. Essentially you're saying that your opponent is a weak player who needs a little extra help and can't possibly expect to overcome a lost ship. Even if they decline the offer and keep playing you've already insulted them.

"My opponent selected a maneuver that has his ship's corner hanging off the board by a fraction of a millimeter. Do I insist the ship is destroyed?"

Off the table and destroyed. The rule is that if you're off the table edge you're destroyed, not that if you're off the table edge "enough". If you don't want to risk losing a ship in that situation then be very careful around table edges.

(And if you argue about it or do anything other than remove your ship as soon as it is clearly established that it is over the edge then you're TFG.)

If you'd rather end the game on turn two before any shots are fired, I have to ask: why are you even playing the game?

Losing one ship on turn 2 does not mean ending the game before shots are fired. It gives one player a big advantage, but a win is far from automatic at that point.

I'm playing the game to have fun, and bieng in a tournament doesn't change that. If I win, I want it to be bacause I outflew my opponent, not because I maliciously threw away a third of their points on turn 2.

So here's an example based on a game I had recently: instead of flying off the table your opponent flies their a-wing up a bit too aggressively, judges range badly, and ends up in range of your ships after using a boost action (and no PTL to remain stress-free) so that it has no defensive tokens available. You shoot at it, your opponent rolls blanks, and the a-wing is destroyed before getting to shoot on a turn when nobody expected to be in range.

Now here's the question: what do you do in that situation? Do you decline to shoot at the a-wing because your opponent made a mistake and didn't really expect to get shot at? Do you let your opponent re-roll those blanks because it wouldn't be fair to "win the game" on turn 1? Do you pick a certain amount of damage that would be "fair" punishment for the mistake and only inflict that much? Or do you just take advantage of the mistake and kill the ship?

Here's what I don't get. Some people argue the point of the game is to have fun (fair enough - if it's not fun, why are you playing? Although winning a game is usually believed to make it even more fun.

So why is it that same crowd can't see the value in making a mistake, learning from it the hard way, and shrugging it off with a "whoops - oh well, it's just a game" instead of getting indignant at the thought of being held accountable to the rules?

You screw up, take your medicine, resolve not to do it again, and walk it off. If you really are just there to have fun, why does it matter that you messed up, to the point where you believe you should be allowed to correct the mistake? Have a laugh about it and carry on living your life.

You really can't make the arguments "It's just a game - it's supposed to be fun," and "I must be allowed to undo this mistake, because if I don't it may cost me the game" in the same breath.

You really can't make the arguments "It's just a game - it's supposed to be fun," and "I must be allowed to undo this mistake, because if I don't it may cost me the game" in the same breath.

Well put Nice to see you around again.

I agree completely, if it's just a game and win or lose doesn't matter... Then why would anyone expect to be allowed to fix a mistake?

Aw thanks, it's good to be back.

Listen, poor sportsmanship is not saying "I'm sorry, you're definitely over the line," or "your ships were already stressed, I have to set your dials." Poor sportsmanship would be taunting the guy for it; rubbing it in his face, mocking him, making him feel worse about it than he already does.

THAT'S being a poor sport - doing whatever the tabletop gaming version of tea-bagging the poor guy would be.

Now, if you have something to prove, and you want to take a stance of "I don't want to win on a mistake," or "I don't want anyone to say I didn't beat him/her fair and square," or something along those lines, that's your business. It's kind of ego, cloaked in the guise of sportsmanship, but if you want to hand the guy his sword back, by all means do so.

The problem I have is that many people seem to believe they are entitled to that treatment, rather than acknowledge it to be an extraordinarily gracious gesture on the part of one player. It becomes commonplace; expected, and noses get bent out of shape when one party assumes quarter will be offered, and none is given.

The best players make mistakes - in professional sports, with millions of dollars on the line. Tiger Woods misses putts. Jordan hit the rim on a 3-pointer from downtown. Gretzky shot at the empty net and clanged one off the post. Those mistakes cost games, championships, sponsorships, you name it.

And you know what those players do? They shake it off and get their head back in the game and move forward from there. You don't think some chess champion out there (or almost champion) didn't realize the second he took his hand off his game piece that he had left himself vulnerable and wished he could undo it? That's life. That's competition.

Sometimes you are going to walk away a winner, and it's because the other guy made a mistake. Sometimes you are going to walk away from the table a loser, and know it's your own **** fault. To me the mark of a good sport is somebody who handles both equally graciously.

This happened to me at world's. My opponent choose to land me on a asteroid and I couldn't fault them for that choice. Even as a newer player that had been told to many times but I just happened to at the frazzled end of a bad dice day and overlooked a dial. Hey it happens, even to more experienced players than I, but I did make sure that I set my dials from that point forward!! If it happens just use it as a learning experience for both of you and move on without making a big deal out of it. If you go easy on them it might not make a lasting impression, thus they might not remember next time too!

Straight...

...off the board, no mercy... would laugh about it afterwards as well!

I started picking apart his Y-wings and was on my way to running away with the game anyway, when in a moment of frustration he tried to K-turn his Y-wings on consecutive turns. He realized immediately what he'd done, and handed his dials over to me. I took a look at the board, and was in the process of setting the first one's maneuver when he had second thoughts and said "you know what? Forget it - I concede. Good game."

I felt for the guy - I think he'd driven a ways to get to the tournament, his dice had been ice cold all day. It was six rounds of qualifying. So I could hardly blame the guy when he called a ref over to report the score and announce he was dropping. I took very little pleasure in winning that way, and I felt horrible for the guy.

That being said, had he let me finish setting the dials, one Y-wing was going RIGHT off the board, and the other one was going to land in a spot where I suspected recovery would be nigh impossible.

I played organized, adult rec hockey for a bunch of years, and it seems to me, coming from that environment, that tabletop gamers are one of the few groups which seem to often feel a bit entitled to be allowed to undo moves, fix mistakes, call for do-overs. In hockey, if a defenseman makes a bad pass and hands the puck to you right in front of their net for the easy tap in, you tap the **** puck in. If he wants to hand you a gift goal, that's his problem. You don't catch the puck, pass it back to him, and go "no problem, man - go ahead and redo your pass." If you try and block a shot and wind up tipping it past your goaltender, you don't get to declare a mulligan. You made a mistake, you own it, and you try to play smarter and work harder to keep it from costing your team the game.

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I'm not arguing that you should *never* take advantage of picking your opponents dial. In that example you gave, It seems like it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game anyway. Another example where I've done that exact thing is when I was down to Luke+R2D2 with 2 HP and 1 shield, and my opponent had a Defender with no shields and and Mithel on full health. We had both made a pass, and the defender tried to do a sharp 1 while stressed (he had no room for his K-turn). So I flew him off the board, which clearly gave me an advantage, so I won.

Perhaps you don't see that as any different to the example the OP gave, but I do. Also, that hockey anecdote is a false equivalence. In the hockey example, you played bad. In the OP's example, he (the opponent) was absent minded for a second, which cost him the game. He could have conceded then and there, losing a third of your points before anybodies even fired a shot makes for a poor game for both sides.

Now, if you have something to prove, and you want to take a stance of "I don't want to win on a mistake," or "I don't want anyone to say I didn't beat him/her fair and square," or something along those lines, that's your business. It's kind of ego, cloaked in the guise of sportsmanship, but if you want to hand the guy his sword back, by all means do so.

I'd ask you not to project your own insecurities onto anyone and everyone around you.

The problem I have is that many people seem to believe they are entitled to that treatment, rather than acknowledge it to be an extraordinarily gracious gesture on the part of one player. It becomes commonplace; expected, and noses get bent out of shape when one party assumes quarter will be offered, and none is given.

And nobodies ever said they were entitled. I'm fine with you capitalising on a mistake I made at a critical moment in the game. I'll concede if you throw a third of my points off the table on the first turn.

Also, that hockey anecdote is a false equivalence. In the hockey example, you played bad. In the OP's example, he (the opponent) was absent minded for a second, which cost him the game.

Both are examples of bad play. And if anything a moment's distraction in hockey is a much bigger deal. Hockey happens in real time, X-Wing doesn't, so there's even less excuse to forget something like that because you were distracted.

No one is going to jump all over someone if they say they want to take a moment to double check all their dials.

And nobodies ever said they were entitled.

Actually we have had people say just that here. Not in this thread, but in the past it has been said more than once. We even had someone go as far as to threaten physical assault if you didn't let him fix a mistake... Now naturally none of us took that real seriously, but that's the attitude people like CrookedWookie and myself have dealt with in the past.

I started picking apart his Y-wings and was on my way to running away with the game anyway, when in a moment of frustration he tried to K-turn his Y-wings on consecutive turns. He realized immediately what he'd done, and handed his dials over to me. I took a look at the board, and was in the process of setting the first one's maneuver when he had second thoughts and said "you know what? Forget it - I concede. Good game."

I felt for the guy - I think he'd driven a ways to get to the tournament, his dice had been ice cold all day. It was six rounds of qualifying. So I could hardly blame the guy when he called a ref over to report the score and announce he was dropping. I took very little pleasure in winning that way, and I felt horrible for the guy.

That being said, had he let me finish setting the dials, one Y-wing was going RIGHT off the board, and the other one was going to land in a spot where I suspected recovery would be nigh impossible.

I played organized, adult rec hockey for a bunch of years, and it seems to me, coming from that environment, that tabletop gamers are one of the few groups which seem to often feel a bit entitled to be allowed to undo moves, fix mistakes, call for do-overs. In hockey, if a defenseman makes a bad pass and hands the puck to you right in front of their net for the easy tap in, you tap the **** puck in. If he wants to hand you a gift goal, that's his problem. You don't catch the puck, pass it back to him, and go "no problem, man - go ahead and redo your pass." If you try and block a shot and wind up tipping it past your goaltender, you don't get to declare a mulligan. You made a mistake, you own it, and you try to play smarter and work harder to keep it from costing your team the game.

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I'm not arguing that you should *never* take advantage of picking your opponents dial. In that example you gave, It seems like it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game anyway. Another example where I've done that exact thing is when I was down to Luke+R2D2 with 2 HP and 1 shield, and my opponent had a Defender with no shields and and Mithel on full health. We had both made a pass, and the defender tried to do a sharp 1 while stressed (he had no room for his K-turn). So I flew him off the board, which clearly gave me an advantage, so I won.

Perhaps you don't see that as any different to the example the OP gave, but I do. Also, that hockey anecdote is a false equivalence. In the hockey example, you played bad. In the OP's example, he (the opponent) was absent minded for a second, which cost him the game. He could have conceded then and there, losing a third of your points before anybodies even fired a shot makes for a poor game for both sides.

Wow, who's projecting their what onto others? Yeesh.

First off, it's not a false equivalence. In X-wing it's worse - you have time to look over the board, see where everything is at, mentally judge distances, look at the status of your ships. You have the luxury of taking the time to make the correct choices based on the information at hand. So there is even less excuse for making a mistake. THAT, to my mind, is bad play. In hockey you have to react in a split second, which makes mistakes more understandable, if even more punishing.

Bottom line; it was a tournament. His opponent made a crucial mistake. He had a chance to punish him for it, and decided to waffle and split the difference between giving him a pass and taking a key player out early. That was his decision, and he was simply asking the rest of us what WE would do in such a situation.

My answer is that if it was in a tournament, not friendly play, or squad testing, or whatever, if you decide you want to give the guy a pass and let him off the hook that's very generous of you, but I would have flown him straight off the map and not lost any sleep over it. The rule exists for a reason and it's not poor sportsmanship to play by it.

I was called a princess because i didn't think you should be forced to correct opponent's mistake (obvious or not). And i can already read some adjectives if you didn't allow your opponent to correct mistakes.

To the OP.

The right move would had been to decide whatever maneuver it suited you. You decided to correct his mistake, people say that's good sportmanship, to me, nothing less than flying the ship outside the table if you can, or if you couldn't, getting it into an asteroid or right into one, would had been condescending. I don't want sugarcoating my mistakes. Different mindsets.

So how do we get to an agreement ? Well, obviously if you are playing on a tournament, you must adhere to the rules. And while there is not exactly an specific rule about it, we can come to a very close one, which is red maneuver + stress. So i think your TO decided the best.

You raise an interesting point there. To me, if I let him off the hook and he wins, it's going to taint it for him because he's going to feel like maybe he doesn't win that game if I hadn't gone easy on him. On the other hand if I punish him for his mistake as the rules allow, and he still pulls out the victory, it's twice as sweet.

Wow, this thread got heated quickly. Granted, with how the first responses went, not too surprising.

FYI: I would've chosen whatever white maneuver would've screwed up his gameplan the most.

I don't want sugarcoating my mistakes. Different mindsets.

I agree completely. I play a lot of disc golf, pretty much every Friday night and some saturdays with a friend. He's a lot better then me, and typically wins by 2 or 3 strokes on 9 holes. Last year it was 4-6 strokes, because I really stepped up my game this year

A few years ago we played with mulligans, 1 per 9 holes. He rarely used his but I did. This year it's rare for either of to use one, because I closed the gap, and have actually beat him a couple times.

Winning a round because I used a mulligan, or because he let me pitch out of the woods without taking a penalty was never really that enjoyable, I took it because it was a way of handicapping himself. But it was always a * by the win. This year no mulligans just legit scores and the wins were that much better for it.

But as you point out, it is a matter of a mindset, and not everyone has the same one. The problem is as I said in another thread, when people expect someone else to abide by their opinions on how the game should be played.

Hey! Disc golf is false equivalency!

Hey! Disc golf is false equivalency!

Say man, don't let ribann (jimmius) get to you. He's just trying to get banned again. Obvious troll is obvious.

Actually we have had people say just that here. Not in this thread, but in the past it has been said more than once. We even had someone go as far as to threaten physical assault if you didn't let him fix a mistake... Now naturally none of us took that real seriously, but that's the attitude people like CrookedWookie and myself have dealt with in the past.

Well, ****. That guy I'd happily fly off the board given any opportunity. I suppose it comes down to whether I think the game would be more fun if I did or if I didn't.

Say man, don't let ribann (jimmius) get to you. He's just trying to get banned again. Obvious troll is obvious.

Calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll. An 'obvious troll' no less! I thought this forum was for discussion about the game, not hugging each other and confirming each others biases. There are plenty of other places you can go if you want to do that.

Say man, don't let ribann (jimmius) get to you. He's just trying to get banned again. Obvious troll is obvious.

If you have evidence to support this rather damning claim, please provide it. Otherwise you're being as big of a troll as Ribann was.

Say man, don't let ribann (jimmius) get to you. He's just trying to get banned again. Obvious troll is obvious.

If you have evidence to support this rather damning claim, please provide it. Otherwise you're being as big of a troll as Ribann was.

You're right. I went off the sep 13 registration date and the general tone of his posts this morning. Between him calling wookiee out for something that he apparently created out of whole cloth, and his response in another thread that was at best poor reading comprehension and at worst out and out trolling, I got a little hot. If he isn't ribann then I humbly apologise.

Ok, I want to apologise for being quite hyperbolic and angry these last few posts. This is a topic I feel quite passionately about, and being called a troll for disagreeing with people is not the attitude I'd expected of the community from what I'd heard of it.

To VanorDM and CrookedWookie: Thank you for explaining your points of view to me. I can appreciate that you feel I'd be doing a disservice to my opponent by doing anything less than what would give me the biggest advantage. I'd agree with that for the most part, especially if the guy felt entitled to me being nice to him (or if he threatened me with violence. I mean gosh), but I think in the OPs example I couldn't bring myself to throw away one of his ships so early on. Call it ego, or whatever, but we'll have to agree to disagree. And thanks for not immediately going 'Lol Ribann gtfo'.

Anyways, Fly Casual.

Ok, I want to apologise for being quite hyperbolic and angry these last few posts.

Good for you and Futant420, for both taking a step back. The community is better off when people can do so, especially when they don't agree on something.

but I think in the OPs example I couldn't bring myself to throw away one of his ships so early on.

That is a completely fair and reasonable decision to make. More to the point, if it's your call, it's your call, so no one should fault you for whatever decision you make.

My issue and I know CW feels the same way, with many of these issues of sportsmanship, is that far too often people seem to want to use Fly Casual as an excuse to get away with a mistake, or to fix an error. Even going as far as becoming rather militant in their right to do so. I think people can see the oxymoronic nature of such a thing. "You better fly casual or else!!!"

Part of the issue is the heated nature of past discussions on this topic and that tends to bleed into new ones. I find it very easy to start from a point of aggression because that's where I left off at.

But the bottom line is this. Everyone should be shown respect no matter what they decide to do in situations like this. While it may be a 'nice guy' thing to not take full advantage of such a mistake, it shouldn't be 'bad guy' thing if you do.

Yeah I think a lot of people forget that "Fly Casual" has to go both ways. Meaning, if something doesn't go your way, you miss an opportunity, forget to place a dial, use an ability, and your opponent decides to hold you accountable for it within the rules, YOU then have to be the bigger man and shake it off.

As Vanor said, the paradox is that among the community you'd be surprised how often the people holding up the Fly Casual banner, promoting sportsmanship, fair play, etc, are the same people who get LIVID at the idea of someone not giving them a do-over, or who believe that if you are given the chance to fly an opponent's ship onto a rock, off the board, etc, and take advantage of it, you're being a poor sport.

Not all of them, by a longshot; it just seems like the people who feel most entitled to be allowed to bend the rules when they mess something up, like to stand alongside the people who are in favor of having fun and not taking the game too seriously.

The irony, of course, being that if they mess something up and are held accountable for it, they suddenly take the game EXTREMELY seriously, instead of shrugging it off. I'm all for flying casual; on the other hand I don't show up to tournaments wearing one of those shirts, simply because I feel like too many people twist that message way beyond its original scope.

To me, flying casual means (in a tournament setting), playing hard, doing everything in your power to win, and then being a good sport and a gracious competitor whether you won or lost.