This sorta came up elsewhere so I thought I'd move the discussion about the rules to the proper place.

Under the standard rules can you premeasure a decloak action the same way you do a barrel roll or boost?

I'm inclined to say no, for the following reasons.

In the standard rules on page 8 it mentions that you can measure before committing to this action.

In the FAQ it says the same thing about Boosts on page 17 as part of the FAQ section. It does not mention decloaking here. However in the FAQ section under movement and actions and game effects it mentions decloak, barrel roll or boost in regards to moving off the table.

So they updated those two sections to include Decloaking.

Finally if you look at "Echo" in the FAQ it says

If “Echo” can perform the decloak, she must do so.

This being the same wording for the competitive rules for barrel roll and boost. This part of the FAQ should apply to both Standard and Competitive rule sets.

So unless I've missed something, once you declare your intention to decloak, you're stuck having to do it, if able to. You can't premeasure, and are committed to the action under both the standard and competitive rules.

Seems a bit out of place to have it work this way. Maybe it was an oversight?

Up until I bumped into your post from the other thread (that turned into this thread) I thought that decloaking was considered a barrel roll to the left or right so barrel roll rules would apply to left or right declaoking. Straight is the oddball as it isn't stated to be a boost but follows the boost guidelines.

I'll have to read the FAQ sections again when I get home to verify this opinion further.

Maybe it was an oversight?

Maybe or maybe it was intentional to make decloaking a bit more tricky?

For me the clincher was the FAQ entry for Echo.

Have you considered that, although you are correct about the differences between standard and competitive rules (and I thank you for you efforts in pointing it out in various threads) that the designers have completely forgotten that there is a difference and are themselves, like so many on this board, just assuming that everyone is playing with the competitive rules and so are phrasing their FAQ answers in that context?

In a casual game often the phantom is a learning experience. The phantom does require a bit of practice to figure out how it works with de-cloaking placement. It depends on what level of handicap (removal) do both player wan't the phantom pilot to have.

Now in competitive and if you are practicing for competitive then it is best to follow official competitive ruling where you have to declare a direction before you place the maneuver template much like declaring the direction before placing a barrel roll template.

Playing casual depends on what both players want out of the game, if they just want to figure out the mechanics and learn how the game system works then play closer to casual. If the players want to test out a competitive squadron or both want to play to win the it is best to play more towards the competitive ruling.

just assuming that everyone is playing with the competitive rules and so are phrasing their FAQ answers in that context?

That's possible... But it doesn't seem to match up with what the FAQ says.

They did edit two or three of the questions to include decloaking, because before they just said barrel roll or boost. So when updating the doc, they wanted to make sure to cover decloaking under rules about going off the table.

The did not however include any reference to decloaking when talking about measuring...

Q:When a player wishes to perform a boost action, can he measure to see if his ship can perform a boost before committing to this action (similar to a barrel roll)?

A:Yes. In competitive and premier events, the player must declare the direction before attempting the maneuver (see “Competitive Play” on page 9).

So they updated part of the FAQ to include decloaking, but not this part. So either it's because this does not apply to decloaking or else they forgot it.

But the entry for Echo seems to make it clear that they didn't just forget it.

When declaring a decloak, the player controlling “Echo” must declare both the side and direction of the decloak. If “Echo” can perform the decloak, she must do so. If “Echo” cannot perform the decloak, the player controlling “Echo” may declare a decloak in any other direction, or he may choose not to decloak.

It seems odd in the extreme that only Echo would be committed to decloaking, so I have to assume this applies to all Phantoms.

Now again, it's possible that the person who wrote up Echo made a mistake and was thinking of competitive rules, and someone forgot to update the Q&A about measuring for boost... But you're now talking about enough mistakes that they seem less like mistakes and more like an intention.

The entry for Echo is assuming competitive play. Maby entries do that.

But decloaking to the sides is still a barrel role, and follow all rules for barrel role except for the template used.

You can't use Exho and generalize. What if it is not Echo decloaking? Does the rule then apply?

They just used competitive rules in the Echo entry because they wanted to clarify hiw Echos ability interacts with comoetitive rules.

The entry for Echo is assuming competitive play.

They can't do that. Competitive play is a subset of the rules, and you can't write errata or make rulings based on a subset. If they start doing that then the standard rules starts to fall apart.

The entry for Echo is assuming competitive play.

They can't do that. Competitive play is a subset of the rules, and you can't write errata or make rulings based on a subset. If they start doing that then the standard rules starts to fall apart.

They shouldn't do that. They certainly could do that and may have done that in this case (possibly with the mentioned consequences starting to show up).

They shouldn't do that.

True, I meant can't as in they can't do that without causing issues.

I think we possibly need to take into account that a lot of purely casual players may not even know about the FAQ. It's only when you get keen enough to start reading the forum that you'll see it mentioned and then go looking for it.

I know I read it as more of an answer source for competitive situations over casual and the overall impression I get is it is aimed at the competitive player more than the casual player.

the overall impression I get is it is aimed at the competitive player more than the casual player.

Errata is not aimed at one group over another, and again the competitive rules are an optional subset of the rules, regardless of how many people use them. Errata has to be written from the standpoint of the standard rules or else it causes issues.

Plus that if it was intended to be written for the competitive rules, then some of what they say makes no sense. For example this section about boosting...

Q: When a player wishes to perform a boost action, can he measure to see if his ship can perform a boost before committing to this action (similar to a barrel roll)?

A: Yes. In competitive and premier events, the player must declare the direction before attempting the maneuver (see “Competitive Play” on page 9).

If the FAQ assumed people playing by competitive rules then this answer doesn't make sense. Because the answer "Yes." conflicts with the competitive rules. So no, the answers and clarifications of the cards should not be considered to apply to only competitive rules.

I think you're missing my point a little Vanor.

When I first started playing, the group we had were quite happy playing with the only set of rules that we knew about - the ones in the box. We had a few questions, but we sorted out resolutions and moved along. It was only after a few months that I visited FFGs website looking to see what other games they had, that I came across the forums quite by accident, and through here, the FAQ. I don't consider the FAQ to apply to only competitive rules. It does iron out a few of the general wrinkles, which is great.

But when I say "competitive players", I'm not referring to the tournament-type players, or the recognised "Competitive Play" rules. I mean the sort of players that have to win casual games as well. The ones with that "competitive" need to win.

Ninety percent of the things in the FAQ have never been an issue within our group, as we've played them pretty much the way they're explained in the FAQ anyway. I can see how some players can get quite wound up about some things, but I play mostly casually, and when I play in a competition, I play with the same casual attitude. The primary goal is to have fun.

I think you're missing my point a little Vanor.

That's always possible Now that I read your post again I do see I missed your point...

I also realise that I made a mistake in my title. this isn't about casual vs competitive but rather Standard rules vs Competitive rules.

My whole point is that when playing with the standard rules, you can premeasure for barrel rolls or boosts, and then either do that or something else if you wish. The standard rules and the FAQ both say this.

But based on the FAQ as I'm seeing it, even under standard rules that does not hold true for Decloaking, if you declare a decloak left, you must decloak left if able to.

I think you're missing my point a little Vanor.

But based on the FAQ as I'm seeing it, even under standard rules that does not hold true for Decloaking, if you declare a decloak left, you must decloak left if able to.

Which kind of goes against the Standard rules a little and the general theory of not being locked into things. But, it also does tend to require Phantom players to plan more carefully. I see this as an advanced ship for the game, and the average newbie is going to have a devil of a time getting to grips with how it works. Where a more experienced player is going to appreciate its nuances. I suppose it's always possible to "house-rule" a pre-measure for casual groups. It's entirely up to your local group of players.

Which kind of goes against the Standard rules a little and the general theory of not being locked into things.

Yeah which is why I brought it up. Until a few weeks ago I just assumed you could premeasure for the decloak, but I'm not so sure. However it's always possible I missed something so I posted to see if that were true.

But, it also does tend to require Phantom players to plan more carefully.

Which may be the intent, it would make it a bit harder to use... And as you say you can always allow a premeasure in friendly games if you want.

I think you're missing my point a little Vanor.

But based on the FAQ as I'm seeing it, even under standard rules that does not hold true for Decloaking, if you declare a decloak left, you must decloak left if able to.

Which kind of goes against the Standard rules a little and the general theory of not being locked into things. But, it also does tend to require Phantom players to plan more carefully. I see this as an advanced ship for the game, and the average newbie is going to have a devil of a time getting to grips with how it works. Where a more experienced player is going to appreciate its nuances. I suppose it's always possible to "house-rule" a pre-measure for casual groups. It's entirely up to your local group of players.

I still think you are generalising to much here.

FAQ Page 2 clearly states that decloaking it done as a Barrel Role with the 2 Straight or a 2 Straight maneuver, with the caveat that you can't overlap obstacles, and can't overlap ships in your final position. So in Standard play you follow the normal rules for pre measuring a barrel role. And in Comptetitive play you commit to the chosen direction.

Now, Echos entry then clarifies that when using her ability, you must commit to both side and direction. This is of cause clarifying how her ability interacts with the Competitive rules for Barrel Roles. The text is actually very close to the Competitive play for Boost actions on page 9 of the FAQ.

If your interpretation of Echo was right, then the same could be argued for standard Barrel Roles because of Lorrirs entry.

GGF could have done a better job stating that these two entries clarified interaction with Competitive rules, and I am sure that if we Write Frank, he will update this in the next FAQ.

Because I am pretty sure no one will argue that you can pre measure a Barrel Role in Standard play, no matter what Lorrirs entry states.

If your interpretation of Echo was right, then the same could be argued for standard Barrel Roles because of Lorrirs entry.

You're right, I completely missed Lt Lorrir's FAQ entry which is worded the same was as Echo. Clearly Lorrir isn't the only interceptor that is committed to a barrel roll per the competitive rules even if not playing them. So I'd say the same would have to apply to echo.