There's been a lot of talk about some sort of padawan-esque universal tree for characters from other books to gain force rating and gain access to some lightsaber abilities without having to buy into Exile or Emergent. I for one am not a huge fan of that idea for various reasons.

However, what if there was a universal spec for a dark side adept or marauder of some kind? People have complained with good reason that having "dark" talents like Terrify prominently in the Agressor spec diminishes the overall value of the Warrior career for Warrior characters with no interest in the dark side, especially since the other careers' talents are neutral in regards to Morality. What if Talents like Terrify were instead worked into a dark side universal tree, and taken out of the talent trees of the careers? That way, people that want those spooky talents can buy into the universal spec, regardless of their career. Likewise, people that want nothing to do with them can ignore the dark side universal spec and focus on the specs in their career.

This universal spec wouldn't say "gain Force Rating 1". The assumption is that you would only be pursuing dark side force abilities if you're already force attuned.

Sorry if this has already been proposed.

I think it would have the same problem that having force powers that have a sidedness end up being inaccessible which is what led to the dual powers.

My other issue is I don't want to have to buy another tree just to be Dark Side, or to get anything good for the Dark Side.

Nah.

Universal specs have to be exactly that, Universal.

Making a "Darkside" spec that automatically assumes you're playing a force suing darksider type kinda kills the whole "universal" part of it. The existing system pretty much handles it. You can start one point from the brink, and when you cross it you lose strain, but get to activate your powers easier then your lightside players, you get access to special takes on some powers, and if you want to be a brute, you can take other talent trees that allow for that.

I get that there's much clawing and gnashing of teeth over "Terrify," but last I checked the talent tree those talents were blocking nothing. Don't want em? Don't take em. You'll still be able to get to +1 FR or any number of other talents on the tree.

I like the idea for a Talent tree that focuses on a Darkside character. I'm also for a Padawan/Knight tree as well. I hope to see something down the road..

I wouldn't begrudge FFG for holding on until a darkside splat.

I wouldn't begrudge FFG for holding on until a darkside splat.

Now that I'd be interested in. But I don't see the need for a new universal talent tree just for it.

I'm not too fond of separate Dark powers; you either have nothing to fear of the Dark Side, other than jerks you are fighting that use it, or you have to buy into it, smacking of an intent that some GMs don't appreciate. I've played most Star Wars RPGs from before FFG got the material, and almost none of them had any real "lure of the Dark Side" to them; you either chose to take powers you knew would give you DSPs, and made all of the other players take bets on how long it would be till you MADE your character, regardless of their inclinations or possible situations "go evil", or there was no slippery slope for you to even worry about.

I do rather like that aspect of the FFG Force system, if I'm not a big fan of starting with such negligible Force Rating, even in this book. If you have less power, and that power was important, you CAN spend Dark as Light, and pay a price, where you actually get a choice, and weigh your options, sometimes with abilities that have no mandatory Dark theme, but powers on a separate tree means that was your intent, and while you and your character MIGHT intend to go dark, like your best pal Vader, because being an Emperor's Inquisitor, or even Hand, can be fun, it's my experience that most games intend you to start good, act good, and try to maintain your path as such, which makes "Dark" powers smack of ill intent.

Now granted, that's just my opinion, and now I've shared it. I suppose I'm also more talking about POWERS than Talents, but I feel they can be viewed the same in this context. I might have to look more closely at my book to see if Aggressor stands out as one "a-hole's table" among all the rest, which are more for "decent" people.

I don't see the need for a tree like this. The Dark Side isn't materially different than the Light Side just your path to power is different, but that you can choose with the existing trees and how you use your power. It's really just two sides of the same coin, the denomination is the same the difference is what you spend it on.

The more I think about it the more I think there should be a Talent tree for the Darkside type characters.

The more I think about it the more I think there should be a Talent tree for the Darkside type characters.

Reasons being?

I'm actually curious.

Well all the Careers are leaning to Light Side characters.. I think joining the darkside will give you different skills than a lightside person.

I don't see a universal dark side spec as necessitating that people "buy into" the dark side. Absent a dark side universal tree people don't need to do that, so with the addition of a dark side tree that won't change. This would more be a tree for some of the esoteric and specifically dark side techniques that people might rather avoid within their own careers if they are not interested in being a dark character, like potentially Terrify. Then, if someone wants to have the "dark" talents, they can go into this tree and take them without having to buy around them in their own tree. If someone wants to be dark side but doesn't want to buy into this tree, they can do so by how they play their character. And if it is a universal spec, all careers would have equal access to it.

Well all the Careers are leaning to Light Side characters.. I think joining the darkside will give you different skills than a lightside person.

I don't know about that. I mean, the only tree I could see maybe even having a slight light side tilt is Sage. And that's more just because succeeding with anything but threat gives you a light side point to use instead of a dark side point - which is still a point you can use, but dark siders would need to use strain and Destiny Points first.

Everything else, barring Aggressor's fear/coercion synergy screams very neutral to me, and their use just depends on your type of play style and roleplaying.

I don't see a universal dark side spec as necessitating that people "buy into" the dark side. Absent a dark side universal tree people don't need to do that, so with the addition of a dark side tree that won't change. This would more be a tree for some of the esoteric and specifically dark side techniques that people might rather avoid within their own careers if they are not interested in being a dark character, like potentially Terrify. Then, if someone wants to have the "dark" talents, they can go into this tree and take them without having to buy around them in their own tree. If someone wants to be dark side but doesn't want to buy into this tree, they can do so by how they play their character. And if it is a universal spec, all careers would have equal access to it.

The problem is that if you buy into that tree and then change your mind later you have a bunch of XP tied up in a tree they can't use. FFG specifically said they did not want to do that and that is what led to the dual force powers. We already have a lot of people saying no to a talent that gives conflict just for having it. I seriously doubt they are going to create a tree that becomes dead weight if you change your characters path. It is a bad idea. I would not mind dual force talents that could be used in either way.

I don't see a universal dark side spec as necessitating that people "buy into" the dark side. Absent a dark side universal tree people don't need to do that, so with the addition of a dark side tree that won't change. This would more be a tree for some of the esoteric and specifically dark side techniques that people might rather avoid within their own careers if they are not interested in being a dark character, like potentially Terrify. Then, if someone wants to have the "dark" talents, they can go into this tree and take them without having to buy around them in their own tree. If someone wants to be dark side but doesn't want to buy into this tree, they can do so by how they play their character. And if it is a universal spec, all careers would have equal access to it.

The problem is that if you buy into that tree and then change your mind later you have a bunch of XP tied up in a tree they can't use. FFG specifically said they did not want to do that and that is what led to the dual force powers. We already have a lot of people saying no to a talent that gives conflict just for having it. I seriously doubt they are going to create a tree that becomes dead weight if you change your characters path. It is a bad idea. I would not mind dual force talents that could be used in either way.

Good point

Dual seems to be the way to go. Keep in mind (going by what we see in films) that Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader (the iconic sith for the public at large) without ever learning a single "darkside ability", he just "repurposed" what he already knew from his Jedi training.

Dark Side Universal Specializations would be a very bad idea if they keep with that ridiculous auto gain conflict rule like with Terrify. It could potentially make the morality system null.

Dark Side Universal Specializations would be a very bad idea if they keep with that ridiculous auto gain conflict rule like with Terrify. It could potentially make the morality system null.

Its not that kinda system though. I've run darkside games with it. Its designed to give a little bonus to those that want it, not to keep players in line.

That's part of the nonissue of terrify. Aside from nto needing to even take it, unless you're already racking up conflict points from being a Jedi a-hole, odds are a point here and there isn't going to have a noticable effect on your alignment.

Dark Side Universal Specializations would be a very bad idea if they keep with that ridiculous auto gain conflict rule like with Terrify. It could potentially make the morality system null.

Its not that kinda system though. I've run darkside games with it. Its designed to give a little bonus to those that want it, not to keep players in line.

That's part of the nonissue of terrify. Aside from nto needing to even take it, unless you're already racking up conflict points from being a Jedi a-hole, odds are a point here and there isn't going to have a noticable effect on your alignment.

the problem is it locks you onto a path,

Dark Side Universal Specializations would be a very bad idea if they keep with that ridiculous auto gain conflict rule like with Terrify. It could potentially make the morality system null.

Its not that kinda system though. I've run darkside games with it. Its designed to give a little bonus to those that want it, not to keep players in line.

That's part of the nonissue of terrify. Aside from nto needing to even take it, unless you're already racking up conflict points from being a Jedi a-hole, odds are a point here and there isn't going to have a noticable effect on your alignment.

the problem is it locks you onto a path,

Its a neat mechanic, but no more game changing then duty or obligation. The concern about it comes more from other systems then the mechanics of this one. Morality doesnt change that fast, is largely in the hands of the player, is pretty forgiving, and the "penalty" for falling to to darkside not all that harsh.

Its not like previous iterations where too many darkside points would cause the character to be removed from play. Or like other games where a holy knight losses his power if he acts like a butt.

explain to me why you need a dark side spec when all of them can be used in a dark manner? We do not need dark side specs. be creative look at how to be a jerk with the existing ones. I am pretty sure we will not be seeing dark side specs as they don't want to lock people on a path and if does not do that is is not a dark side spec. Leave them neutral.

Ah, I see the miscommunication, and we agree. I'm of the opinion that Darkside Specs aren't needed because they all can be dark now as well.

Stuff like terrify is a non issue because you are neither forced to take it or use it, and when you do use it the penalty isn't that big a deal.

Conflict heavy trees to represent Darkside are not really necessay, simply because either you won't care, or will be able to manage it fairly easily.

I could see the addition of a specialization or two that generally has a darker theme by default than the other specs, much as the Aggressor spec for Warrior does (reliance upon fear and intimidation to win fights just as much if not more so than combat skill).

I agree that there doesn't need to be an official "Dark Side" universal spec that one needs to take to become a dark side Force user. That being said, I am revisiting my Dark Side Acolyte universal spec from my Ways of the Force fan supplement with an eye towards making it something akin to the Aggressor, only favoring manipulation over brute force. But it still wouldn't be any sort of requirement to be a dark side Force user. And depending on the career and specs the PC has already, may really not contribute a whole lot to what the PC can do.

I could see the addition of a specialization or two that generally has a darker theme by default than the other specs, much as the Aggressor spec for Warrior does (reliance upon fear and intimidation to win fights just as much if not more so than combat skill).

I agree that there doesn't need to be an official "Dark Side" universal spec that one needs to take to become a dark side Force user. That being said, I am revisiting my Dark Side Acolyte universal spec from my Ways of the Force fan supplement with an eye towards making it something akin to the Aggressor, only favoring manipulation over brute force. But it still wouldn't be any sort of requirement to be a dark side Force user. And depending on the career and specs the PC has already, may really not contribute a whole lot to what the PC can do.

This I could see and get behind.