Funny Blail thinks Intel Agent isn't worth it. After playing my Echo+BH+doomshuttle list for a while against ps9+ ships like Whisper, Han, Soontir, Wedge with engine, Wes with VI AND engine, and others, i LOVE intel agent enough to take 2 of them in my list to Worlds.

Granted, low ps lists it's completely wasted, but for 2 points, the ability to see up to 2 dials against the meta of ps9+ lists is invaluable for ships like Echo.

Kryzak. I... just don't ... augh. Everytime I take them I end up not caring I had them. And never wishing I had them.

I DON'T GET IT. THEY SHOULD BE AMAZING. AUgh. Its like some weird paradox.

You're playing at a much higher level, so hopefully they help you there. I feel like I'm doing what I need to do right and still just.. they don't help me.

On another note:

For my build against meta lists like Phantom and Fat Han, which would you rather have on Vessery? I know the theoreticals. What I want to know is the real life experience of how often R1 will work in real flying. I tried them both and found both to be really kind of useless.

Soontir PTL Hull TC RGtitle 35

Vessery (3point upgrade) 38

Yorr FCS (intel agent, optional for noobs like me) 27

100

99 if no intel agent, which I think would have helped more in my games.

I haven't posted on this thread, so I will just reply to OP. I don't want to start on specifics, people have covered that already and I don't think that's really the issue.

To design good lists you have to be able to look at a game and see what mistakes were made, why you lost/won. It's very tempting to blame individual components of the list, but it's best if you come up with more general assessments:

• I didn't use all my upgrades to their full capacity
• Dice were not on my side (*very treacherous assessment*, be very careful here as people are known not to handle probability and statistics intuitively, just because you rolled triple blanks a couple of times doesn't mean much - if it is the case that dice were a problem, declare the game an outlier and try again)
• I maneuvered poorly, got on asteroids & such
• I maneuvered ok, but my initial engagement was not advantageous, since my list prefers short range engagements
• My maneuvers/engagements were ok, but my general strategy was flawed (direct assault, flanking etc.)
• My maneuvers/engagements were ok, but my list was too squishy/ I had a high-profile target that died instantly etc.
• I didn't like how ship X ( ) handled

Only after doing that you can assess what you can change about your list.

Brown Bomber.. Do you not think that the higher PS is neccessary? I think that's the main thing against the Phantoms.

it will help. i havent played much against phantoms but having a higher PS def helps. depends how many phantoms in ur meta. maybe drop the Shield Upgrade and add VI to Cracken and Horan?

ur at 98pts so could upgrade 2 of ur bandits to talas.

If you're worried about phantoms then I'd give Corran a flechette (instead of upgrading the bandits to talas) so that in the double tap he stands a good chance of finishing one off, and even if he doesn't a stressed phantom is a predictable phantom.

I haven't posted on this thread, so I will just reply to OP. I don't want to start on specifics, people have covered that already and I don't think that's really the issue.

To design good lists you have to be able to look at a game and see what mistakes were made, why you lost/won. It's very tempting to blame individual components of the list, but it's best if you come up with more general assessments:

• I didn't use all my upgrades to their full capacity
• Dice were not on my side (*very treacherous assessment*, be very careful here as people are known not to handle probability and statistics intuitively, just because you rolled triple blanks a couple of times doesn't mean much - if it is the case that dice were a problem, declare the game an outlier and try again)
• I maneuvered poorly, got on asteroids & such
• I maneuvered ok, but my initial engagement was not advantageous, since my list prefers short range engagements
• My maneuvers/engagements were ok, but my general strategy was flawed (direct assault, flanking etc.)
• My maneuvers/engagements were ok, but my list was too squishy/ I had a high-profile target that died instantly etc.
• I didn't like how ship X ( ) handled

Only after doing that you can assess what you can change about your list.

I appreciate your check.

This is mostly a rant thread to be honest. And a place to get some new ideas, as my old ones didn't work out that well.

Part of my concept is the relative ease of play. This includes not having to remember too many things, having an easier time with one list than another. This is relatively easy to see in one or two games. I have three with these lists and variants. Again, not a big data sample, but enough for a feel and some real experience to add to the theoreticals. Besides, I don't get to play often and these games take more than an hour.

I was helping my opponent play the Falcon list as optimally as I could, due to experience difference and for both of us to have fun. This wasn't really anything that really breaks expectations though, I simply suggested a few boosts at first to teach him how to arc dodge me and he picked it up well from there. His movements were good and nothing I could say needed to get better. This was mostly intended to help me also get a better testing experience, as it gets closer to a competent opponent.

I was aware and could use all of my upgrades effectively, but I did forget to pass a thrust control damage stress from soontir to yorr. This mistake slowly cost me soontir over the next 3 turns. I rolled okay. The damage went through on rounds i had actions however, as you'll note that i got that critical while I was fine. Losing soontir meant that my demise was much faster.

Other than that, used all of the upgrades and abilities as efectively as possible. Vessery only had 1 shot that was not TL'ed.

So this is with maximum stat line efficiency.

Dice were decent. I even could say i rolled better than average, around 60-70% in my favor.

I maneuvered somewhat poorly. My opponent maneuvered even more poorly. we both hit rocks.

Initial engagement and latter engagement completely advantageous. Nuked a X in the first 2 rounds, the other spent 80% of the game being irrelevant via arc dodge or his poor flying.

My general strategy was good. The falcon was stuck on the other side by asteroids and the Xs were a little too far out, killed one almost instantly. The swing in and pass were good. My shuttle got in about 5 attacks with FCS (no engine guys!)

I did have a high profile target that died rather quickly, but not quite instantly. The variance here is "on-par". Han still does 1 damage at least a turn. And if my opponent had flown beter with the Falcon and 2Xs soontir probably would have died around as fast. Maybe gotten one more relevant attack in. This would have made a big difference, but is due mostly to how the game played out. Showing that the margin of error for this list is very low.

Calling it a problem of the build would be a "unuseful truth" in my opinion. Each list has a part that is easier to kill, even competitive lists. Soontir is not that easy when flown well. Also I did have hull upgrade to help and good actions.

I'm really good with no Engine Shuttles, but I did not like how Shuttle vs Falcon went. The Falcon had an incredibly easier time than I expected dodging the shuttle. My experience playing the ship however still allowed me to land mutliple attacks and TWO passes. So the shuttle did not become irrelevant after first pass.

All in all, it seemed much easier to fly the Falcon and arc dodge or intentionally bump. 3 ships is not very easy.

I haven't posted on this thread, so I will just reply to OP. I don't want to start on specifics, people have covered that already and I don't think that's really the issue.

To design good lists you have to be able to look at a game and see what mistakes were made, why you lost/won. It's very tempting to blame individual components of the list, but it's best if you come up with more general assessments:

• I didn't use all my upgrades to their full capacity
• Dice were not on my side (*very treacherous assessment*, be very careful here as people are known not to handle probability and statistics intuitively, just because you rolled triple blanks a couple of times doesn't mean much - if it is the case that dice were a problem, declare the game an outlier and try again)
• I maneuvered poorly, got on asteroids & such
• I maneuvered ok, but my initial engagement was not advantageous, since my list prefers short range engagements
• My maneuvers/engagements were ok, but my general strategy was flawed (direct assault, flanking etc.)
• My maneuvers/engagements were ok, but my list was too squishy/ I had a high-profile target that died instantly etc.
• I didn't like how ship X ( ) handled

Only after doing that you can assess what you can change about your list.

I appreciate your check.

This is mostly a rant thread to be honest. And a place to get some new ideas, as my old ones didn't work out that well.

Part of my concept is the relative ease of play. This includes not having to remember too many things, having an easier time with one list than another. This is relatively easy to see in one or two games. I have three with these lists and variants. Again, not a big data sample, but enough for a feel and some real experience to add to the theoreticals. Besides, I don't get to play often and these games take more than an hour.

I was helping my opponent play the Falcon list as optimally as I could, due to experience difference and for both of us to have fun. This wasn't really anything that really breaks expectations though, I simply suggested a few boosts at first to teach him how to arc dodge me and he picked it up well from there. His movements were good and nothing I could say needed to get better. This was mostly intended to help me also get a better testing experience, as it gets closer to a competent opponent.

I was aware and could use all of my upgrades effectively, but I did forget to pass a thrust control damage stress from soontir to yorr. This mistake slowly cost me soontir over the next 3 turns. I rolled okay. The damage went through on rounds i had actions however, as you'll note that i got that critical while I was fine. Losing soontir meant that my demise was much faster.

Other than that, used all of the upgrades and abilities as efectively as possible. Vessery only had 1 shot that was not TL'ed.

So this is with maximum stat line efficiency.

Dice were decent. I even could say i rolled better than average, around 60-70% in my favor.

I maneuvered somewhat poorly. My opponent maneuvered even more poorly. we both hit rocks.

Initial engagement and latter engagement completely advantageous. Nuked a X in the first 2 rounds, the other spent 80% of the game being irrelevant via arc dodge or his poor flying.

My general strategy was good. The falcon was stuck on the other side by asteroids and the Xs were a little too far out, killed one almost instantly. The swing in and pass were good. My shuttle got in about 5 attacks with FCS (no engine guys!)

I did have a high profile target that died rather quickly, but not quite instantly. The variance here is "on-par". Han still does 1 damage at least a turn. And if my opponent had flown beter with the Falcon and 2Xs soontir probably would have died around as fast. Maybe gotten one more relevant attack in. This would have made a big difference, but is due mostly to how the game played out. Showing that the margin of error for this list is very low.

Calling it a problem of the build would be a "unuseful truth" in my opinion. Each list has a part that is easier to kill, even competitive lists. Soontir is not that easy when flown well. Also I did have hull upgrade to help and good actions.

I'm really good with no Engine Shuttles, but I did not like how Shuttle vs Falcon went. The Falcon had an incredibly easier time than I expected dodging the shuttle. My experience playing the ship however still allowed me to land mutliple attacks and TWO passes. So the shuttle did not become irrelevant after first pass.

All in all, it seemed much easier to fly the Falcon and arc dodge or intentionally bump. 3 ships is not very easy.

First of all, did you assign Soontir a focus token when he got Thrust Control Fire? This saved my butt in a tournament game, Soontir got to defend the next attack with a focus token.

Second, you do know that Yorr prevents Soontir from getting his extra focus token, right? "If, through his pilot ability, Captain Yorr intercepts a stress token that is part of the cost of triggering an ability on another ship (such as Soontir Fel or Opportunist), that ability’s effect does not resolve."

Let me summarize what I read between the lines:

• You couldn't trigger Yorr as much as you wanted. I would also add that Yorr doesn't synergyize well with Soontir because he doesn't get a focus token, and also not as much with Vessery because of the 4-K - although it's nice for his hard turns
• You couldn't shoot a lot of times with the shuttle on the Falcon a lot of the times, so FCS wasn't a big boon.
• Although Outmaneuver was triggered often, you feel as though it didn't help immensely (probably because the Falcon didn't have C3PO)

I would also add the following comments, since I have flown a similar list:

• You have very few ships so you need to compensate by doing damage with all of them
• Yorr taking stress means less maneuvrability, so he's less likely to shoot, which is bad
• TC on Soontir means you're likely to focus on offense, with no third action because you take away the stress, which exposes him more

What I flew had the following:

• Downgrade of Yorr to OGP, freeing up some points. FCS + IA become Vader, guaranteeing more damage from the Lambda (you can also switch targets now, depending on what you have directly in front of you), also very good to have against Phantoms and to give bad crits to Han once he's out of shields
• Only PtL on Soontir, which is cheaper, focus () on getting him out of arcs, he'll do the damage just fine You don't lose as much when he's gone
• Vessery picks up HLC, now he'll really tear up the Falcon when he also has Outmaneuver, even at range 3.

So what I had in my list as opposed to yours is: a) more damage, b) less points on the fragile ship - since Soontir already does very well with just PtL c) no support options for the Lambda - motivated by running only 3 ships.

I hope I described this in a way that makes sense, gradually coming from the general guidelines I posted earlier, to your experience, to list considerations based on your experience, to the actual modifications (big surprise to me that it steered towards a list I was flying at some time).

Kryzak. I... just don't ... augh. Everytime I take them I end up not caring I had them. And never wishing I had them.

I DON'T GET IT. THEY SHOULD BE AMAZING. AUgh. Its like some weird paradox.

You're playing at a much higher level, so hopefully they help you there. I feel like I'm doing what I need to do right and still just.. they don't help me.

I think I understand. I had that feeling about Recon Specialist for the longest time, especially on the Firespray. I *still* think Recon Specialist is not worth using on the Firespray (and thus never use it on my BH), but discovered how useful it was on Echo due to the token for offense and defense. For a 4 dice offense and 4 dice defense, the focus tokens came in super handy. Unfortunately, Rebel Captive ended up even more important for Echo in the tournament meta. :\

Looking at your lists that you tried, only Soontir really had a strong ability to do maneuver actions after the enemy. Vessery can BR, but that's limited compared to a Boost and BR. But even then, Soontir already has PS9, so unless the Han you gave your friend has VI, you might still be moving after Han.

Also, it could be (not saying it is, but speculating) that you weren't able to get the shuttle with Intel Agent close enough to the "action" so to speak, which also might explain the other discussion you have with chilligan on why Yorr is not useful. I flew Yorr a few times myself and trying to keep him within R1-2 of my Echo/Soontir/Vessery was hard, and I fly the shuttle a lot. Even when I can keep him within R1-2, it ends up limiting my movement and I sometimes bump into myself. What D4rkt3mpl4r did at Nationals was a true feat of good flying to make it work like he did. But ultimately, Intel Agent is something that you have to intentionally use to make it work, and then have the list to capitalize on it. For me, all the hard counters to Echo are PS9+, so I literally fly my shuttle and BH straight at the key targets (which I want to do anyways to shoot them) and then I get 2-3 turns of Intel Agent so Echo can get good shots. The last TCO game I played against a Fat Han, I had my BH or Shuttle within R1-2 of Fat Han probably more than 50% of the rounds, and there were 2-3 crucial rounds where if I knew where he was going, I would have had a chance to kill him, but in the end, he outflew me with great skill and I ended up not shooting with any of my 3 ships for the last 5 rounds and got picked off one by one.

On another note:

For my build against meta lists like Phantom and Fat Han, which would you rather have on Vessery? I know the theoreticals. What I want to know is the real life experience of how often R1 will work in real flying. I tried them both and found both to be really kind of useless.

Soontir PTL Hull TC RGtitle 35

Vessery (3point upgrade) 38

Yorr FCS (intel agent, optional for noobs like me) 27

100

99 if no intel agent, which I think would have helped more in my games.

Like Chilligan said, I would recommend you go with OGP and then you can use Intel agent and have 2 more points to play with. Enhanced Scopes is something I'm just learning the beauty of on a shuttle, especially against blockers like Prototype A's and APs.

I really would recommend keeping Vessery simple, with a 1 point upgrade like Adrenaline Rush (it's such a useful card especially if you're just learning how to fly a Defender, having all the hard turns available to you). I don't really find Outmaneuver that useful on Vessery, and Predator doesn't make sense on him.

Just my recommendation, but this is what I would try with your list (which actually looks like a list I almost took to Worlds and still might use in their Winter Tournament after I get bumped from the main event). ;-)

Soontir PTL Hull TC RGtitle 35

Vessery + Adrenaline Rush 36

OGP FCS Intel 24

Total: 95

5 points to play with. I would recommend either making the OGP a doomshuttle (and take out FCS) with Vader, OR add Engine Upgrade to OGP so now you have a strong attacker that can maneuver and still be at 99 points and give Vessery TLs to use.

ergh. the 4 point cost though. And the target lock requirement.

Its really weird. Honestly... Intel agent should be really really good. Especially on my list where I can BR the Defender and BR and Boost the Interceptor. Just nope. Terrible.

just pointing out that intel agent is only 1 point

I haven't posted on this thread, so I will just reply to OP. I don't want to start on specifics, people have covered that already and I don't think that's really the issue.

To design good lists you have to be able to look at a game and see what mistakes were made, why you lost/won. It's very tempting to blame individual components of the list, but it's best if you come up with more general assessments:

• I didn't use all my upgrades to their full capacity
• Dice were not on my side (*very treacherous assessment*, be very careful here as people are known not to handle probability and statistics intuitively, just because you rolled triple blanks a couple of times doesn't mean much - if it is the case that dice were a problem, declare the game an outlier and try again)
• I maneuvered poorly, got on asteroids & such
• I maneuvered ok, but my initial engagement was not advantageous, since my list prefers short range engagements
• My maneuvers/engagements were ok, but my general strategy was flawed (direct assault, flanking etc.)
• My maneuvers/engagements were ok, but my list was too squishy/ I had a high-profile target that died instantly etc.
• I didn't like how ship X ( ) handled

Only after doing that you can assess what you can change about your list.

I appreciate your check.

This is mostly a rant thread to be honest. And a place to get some new ideas, as my old ones didn't work out that well.

Part of my concept is the relative ease of play. This includes not having to remember too many things, having an easier time with one list than another. This is relatively easy to see in one or two games. I have three with these lists and variants. Again, not a big data sample, but enough for a feel and some real experience to add to the theoreticals. Besides, I don't get to play often and these games take more than an hour.

I was helping my opponent play the Falcon list as optimally as I could, due to experience difference and for both of us to have fun. This wasn't really anything that really breaks expectations though, I simply suggested a few boosts at first to teach him how to arc dodge me and he picked it up well from there. His movements were good and nothing I could say needed to get better. This was mostly intended to help me also get a better testing experience, as it gets closer to a competent opponent.

I was aware and could use all of my upgrades effectively, but I did forget to pass a thrust control damage stress from soontir to yorr. This mistake slowly cost me soontir over the next 3 turns. I rolled okay. The damage went through on rounds i had actions however, as you'll note that i got that critical while I was fine. Losing soontir meant that my demise was much faster.

Other than that, used all of the upgrades and abilities as efectively as possible. Vessery only had 1 shot that was not TL'ed.

So this is with maximum stat line efficiency.

Dice were decent. I even could say i rolled better than average, around 60-70% in my favor.

I maneuvered somewhat poorly. My opponent maneuvered even more poorly. we both hit rocks.

Initial engagement and latter engagement completely advantageous. Nuked a X in the first 2 rounds, the other spent 80% of the game being irrelevant via arc dodge or his poor flying.

My general strategy was good. The falcon was stuck on the other side by asteroids and the Xs were a little too far out, killed one almost instantly. The swing in and pass were good. My shuttle got in about 5 attacks with FCS (no engine guys!)

I did have a high profile target that died rather quickly, but not quite instantly. The variance here is "on-par". Han still does 1 damage at least a turn. And if my opponent had flown beter with the Falcon and 2Xs soontir probably would have died around as fast. Maybe gotten one more relevant attack in. This would have made a big difference, but is due mostly to how the game played out. Showing that the margin of error for this list is very low.

Calling it a problem of the build would be a "unuseful truth" in my opinion. Each list has a part that is easier to kill, even competitive lists. Soontir is not that easy when flown well. Also I did have hull upgrade to help and good actions.

I'm really good with no Engine Shuttles, but I did not like how Shuttle vs Falcon went. The Falcon had an incredibly easier time than I expected dodging the shuttle. My experience playing the ship however still allowed me to land mutliple attacks and TWO passes. So the shuttle did not become irrelevant after first pass.

All in all, it seemed much easier to fly the Falcon and arc dodge or intentionally bump. 3 ships is not very easy.

First of all, did you assign Soontir a focus token when he got Thrust Control Fire? This saved my butt in a tournament game, Soontir got to defend the next attack with a focus token.

Second, you do know that Yorr prevents Soontir from getting his extra focus token, right? "If, through his pilot ability, Captain Yorr intercepts a stress token that is part of the cost of triggering an ability on another ship (such as Soontir Fel or Opportunist), that ability’s effect does not resolve."

Let me summarize what I read between the lines:

• You couldn't trigger Yorr as much as you wanted. I would also add that Yorr doesn't synergyize well with Soontir because he doesn't get a focus token, and also not as much with Vessery because of the 4-K - although it's nice for his hard turns
• You couldn't shoot a lot of times with the shuttle on the Falcon a lot of the times, so FCS wasn't a big boon.
• Although Outmaneuver was triggered often, you feel as though it didn't help immensely (probably because the Falcon didn't have C3PO)

I would also add the following comments, since I have flown a similar list:

• You have very few ships so you need to compensate by doing damage with all of them
• Yorr taking stress means less maneuvrability, so he's less likely to shoot, which is bad
• TC on Soontir means you're likely to focus on offense, with no third action because you take away the stress, which exposes him more

What I flew had the following:

• Downgrade of Yorr to OGP, freeing up some points. FCS + IA become Vader, guaranteeing more damage from the Lambda (you can also switch targets now, depending on what you have directly in front of you), also very good to have against Phantoms and to give bad crits to Han once he's out of shields
• Only PtL on Soontir, which is cheaper, focus ( ) on getting him out of arcs, he'll do the damage just fine You don't lose as much when he's gone
• Vessery picks up HLC, now he'll really tear up the Falcon when he also has Outmaneuver, even at range 3.

So what I had in my list as opposed to yours is: a) more damage, b) less points on the fragile ship - since Soontir already does very well with just PtL c) no support options for the Lambda - motivated by running only 3 ships.

I hope I described this in a way that makes sense, gradually coming from the general guidelines I posted earlier, to your experience, to list considerations based on your experience, to the actual modifications (big surprise to me that it steered towards a list I was flying at some time).

I really appreciate your thoughts. That said, your analysis is really off from the game.

Yes I did assign that focus, but he had one already and an evade, and he had just finished the last attack. (I rolled and passed initiative).

I knkow that Yorr's pull prevents the focus. This was Han's attack where I already had a focus, it should have been passed to Yorr. I forgot. It would have been perfect because my next move was green anyway.

Yorr synergizes extremely well with soontir as you can choose when you want that focus and stress actually. Gives you a lot more maneuverability and options. Also prevents Rebel Captive stress. Just ask the National champion. =) Honestly, this is built as a variant of his list.

Yorr had 3 shots on the Falcon. The FCS probably gave about 3 more through damage approximately. And allowed for TL F shots. It was cost effective. The problem of manevuerability is the difference between the shuttle and the Falcon.

I do agree though that pulling stress to Yorr stops you from using the hard stop as much as you might want. I think there was one time that happened. However Yorr facilitated two or three harder moves from the other two ships, thus... I'd say, its either about even or in Yorr's favor.

Also, Yorr has an impact AFTER he's passed around, in making a good place for your ally ships to land into.

Outmaneuver only helps against C3P0 if each ship has it. This has been discussed to death on this forum already. Vessery shoots at PS6 anyway. And I've said that I did not find Outmaneuver NOR Prockets that useful.

--

Agreed I need to make sure all my ships shoot more, however that is hard with a well-flown Falcon whose player knows how to arc dodge well.

Disagreed on Yorr stress. Its about even. It's better for the Phantom matchup here.

You have a misunderstanding on how to use Yorr with Soontir. Its not all the time. Its only very occasionally. He has turning in effect. Basically, the game will begin to close into a smaller range as the game goes on, letting Yorr be more useful later. I had no problems using him effectively.

I typically took 3 actions and left the stress on Soontir. TL F and 1 movement option. This increased my damage potential a LOT.

Think over the build again. Vessery needs usually two TL takers for consistency, also one that shoots after him (Yorr). FCS is thus cost effective on Yorr and also facilitiated 3 shots of TL F for Vessery. VERY cost effective.

If you remove FCS and TC for Soontir as youve recommended you have literally no easy TLs, except as a Yorr action, and that's not reliable and costs Yorr his focus each turn. JUST to save that focus, FCS would have been cost effective.

I disagree with HLC. 4 dice F is lower damage output than three 3 dice TL F that are given by TC and FCS.

You lose a LOT of damage output when soontir dies early, which is what happens if he doesn't have an extra hull, incentivises Han to shoot him much more often. Try it, try rolling the dice. I've experienced it.

Vader is an okay choice too. I could live with that.

The problem with all of this is also that the Phantom counter gets much harder. 30 pt Soontir PTL is no match for 40pt Rebel Captive Whisper. The other two ships on your list are going to only have minimal benefit to fighting that.

Compare to Yorr to remove the Rebel Captive stress, allowing you to take 3 actions instead of 2. Intel agent to help if needed. TC gives Soontir enough damage output to get through both 2 and 4 defense dice. You don't want your shots evaded. Hull to last longer, as that's your only threat to a Whisper list.

Yeah. I'm using Yorr not in formation, but in pincer mode. I don't try and stay close to him, but use him opportunisitically when I get close to that range. Usually later into the game as DarkTemplar said.

Intel agent for me was of the same nature. Not something I tried to actively use, but as a extra soft counter to mobility IF the opponent got close to Yorr. I do find that this does make them try and steer clear of Yorr, which makes things fun for the shuttle.

I'll go try it with Vader perhaps. Though I'm loathe to lose FCS. Maybe Engine instead. I think I'll try dropping Yorr for now.

That Phantom match is gonna be tough though!

I think it's a matter of preference, but I'm okay with having only one ship (out of my 3) use TL for Vessery, as long as I know I can use it consistently until it dies. If it survives, I'll gladly circle the board with a target lock left on the most juicy target.

As for Soontir, I really like that focus and I always count on it. I prefer using BR and boost with green maneuvers to get into the position I want.

Defenders with Outmaneuver are great. Due to the white K-turn, it's likely that you'll end up outside somebody's arc sooner rather than later. HLC on them is just bonus, and I find it quite addictive to run.

These are all options that work for me. By all means, find your own. Get a lot of games in, find what doesn't work, replace it with something that does!

I always have focus on Soontir! haha. Yeah. I would almost never pass the stress if i meant i didnt have a focus. I might pass a subsequent rebel captive stress though.

or i might take a focus as an action and then pass the stress.

Oh boy, another game i played the dice gods were really having a field day with me. My opponent was consistently losing actions and shooting at me with no modifiers and getting good damage and good dodges while my mods kept coming up blank. I used 5 two dice TLs, all came up blank/focus. All of them. 1/128 chance that is. =)

I always have focus on Soontir! haha. Yeah. I would almost never pass the stress if i meant i didnt have a focus. I might pass a subsequent rebel captive stress though.

or i might take a focus as an action and then pass the stress.

Oh boy, another game i played the dice gods were really having a field day with me. My opponent was consistently losing actions and shooting at me with no modifiers and getting good damage and good dodges while my mods kept coming up blank. I used 5 two dice TLs, all came up blank/focus. All of them. 1/128 chance that is. =)

You ain't got nothing on me. Echo at PS11 (kudos to Vader) shooting at Han with 3HP range 1, TL+focus. No damage! (or 1hp, can't remember). Han shoots back at Echo (had cloak now, kept focus, couldn't use it), one-hit kill!

Not to overly side track or anything but my response to Falcon builds are to crush them into non existence. Doesn't matter if I win or lose but as long as I make that YT die people lose interest in it.

There is a guy in my group who plays super falcon builds once and a while and likes super biggs. It would be OK if he tried more unique or different things but he doesn't so when I see Biggs or Chewie I make sure it dies a brutal death.

To be on topic though, I can't find a way to make proton rockets worth it on Tie Defenders. There just seems to be limited options to synergise a good turn for it and in general I don't like being that close to a fighter with Defenders

Yeah. Defenders are weird. Their roles aren't really figured out. =/ Seems like they have conflicting identities.

No evade really sucks. It stops them from being a full on tank against more massable builds.

If Defenders have evade action... man. One can dream.

To be on topic though, I can't find a way to make proton rockets worth it on Tie Defenders. There just seems to be limited options to synergise a good turn for it and in general I don't like being that close to a fighter with Defenders

Yeah, I don't think Proton Rockets are worth it on Defenders. Cluster Missles on Vessery on the other hand...

I've one-shotted many a ship with Vessery, Outmaneuver and Cluster Missles.

Haha that's a powerful combo but it's very expensive. 30 for the fender 5 for vessery 3 for outmaneuver and 4 for cluster. Whoo. A little crazy expensive.

You've spent a lot of point on firepower which means you have less for mobility and other things.

Haha that's a powerful combo but it's very expensive. 30 for the fender 5 for vessery 3 for outmaneuver and 4 for cluster. Whoo. A little crazy expensive.

You've spent a lot of point on firepower which means you have less for mobility and other things.

A ship is only expensive if it doesn't make up its points. I also add an Ion cannon to that build. It turns Vessery into a monster. You see, the meta around here is mostly 3 ship builds. I'd say 95% of the time I'm playing a 3-ship build and Vessery kitted out like that eats 3 ship builds for breakfast. If he just ions one ship, they are out of the game for a turn and I know exactly where they'll be too.

Here's the build I use:

Colonel Vessery (35)

Outmaneuver (3)

Ion Cannon (3)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Sensor Jammer (4)

Weapons Engineer (3)

ST-321 (3)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I haven't lost yet with it - not because I'm an awesome player (because I'm not) - but because it flys to my strengths and works really, REALLY well in our local 3-ship meta.

Without Vessery kitted out like that, it would be far less successful.

I read the title as 'Hebrews are not working' and was really worried about the context of the thread... Time for more coffee!

I read the title as 'Hebrews are not working' and was really worried about the context of the thread... Time for more coffee!

Home brewed coffee, I hope?