So, is a 2:1 or 3:1 CP ration in favor of the OL really the "standard"?

By NigelTufnel, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

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Okay, a little background. This is our first campaign using RtL, and it's really the first time most of us have played Descent. I'm playing the OL as the Sorcerer King, and the four heroes are Varikas the Dead, Steelhorns, Runewitch Ystarra, and Ronan the Wild. I have the first three sessions kind of summarized in my 'played games' on BGG, so I'll just repost that here:

Session #1: Conquest Level = 15 (5 OL + 10 Heroes); first game week

Completed 1st Level of Starfall Forest (1st dungeon)

Monsters faced:

Named Spider Leader
Giant Spiders (x2)
Troll (x1)
Kobolds
Skeleton (x1)

It was our first game of the Advanced Campaign, and took longer than expected due to frequent reference to the rulebook and a long initial explanation of the rules. Great time had by all, though.

Notes: This was the "Web of Lives" (?) dungeon level, I think, and I found it really difficult to spawn anything. The heroes make a real point of fanning out to block all avenues for line of sight (plus, I wasn't sure if monsters could open doors--which I have since discovered they can--so the heroes took everything in order as they wished).

Session #2: Conquest Level = 45 (29 OL + 16 Heroes); first game week

Completed 2nd Level of Starfall Forest (1st dungeon) -- The one with two sorcerer brothers (Ebon and Onyx, I think?)

Monsters faced:

Named Sorcerer Leaders (x2)
Master Naga
Dark Priests (x2, 1 Master)
Blood Apes (x2)
Beastmen (x6, 2 Masters)
Kobolds

Notes: Heroes had a particularly rough time with the Dark Priests, as well as three Beastmen spawned right at the end (one Master). This level went a lot better, I thought.

Session #3: Conquest Level = 74 (46 OL + 28 Heroes)

Completed 3rd Level of Starfall Forest (1st dungeon) -- The Crypt, I think

Three Overworld encounters (two non-combat)

Monsters faced:

Named Sorcerer Leaders (x2)
Named Skeleton Leader
Named Beastman Leader
Beastmen (x3)
Blood Apes (x2)
Master Skeletons (x2)
Skeletons (x8)

Heroes did much better this time around. OL upgraded Eldritch and purchased Snipers.

Alric Farrow successfully razed Dawnsmoor. Merick Farrow entered play.

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Okay, so after three sessions, we're standing at almost halfway to Silver level. I have now learned, though, that each named leader on a dungeon level gives the listed reward, so I owe the heroes some more conquest and gold. Since Level 2 had two leaders and Level 3 had three, the CP total should actually be 84 (46 OL + 38 heroes).

Hence, this post. Am I really supposed to have twice (or thrice ?) as many CP as the heroes at this point? I honestly don't see how. I only managed one kill on Level 1 of the dungeon (mainly b/c my monsters all stayed behind the doors until the heroes were ready for them), but I had at least three hero kills per level after that--including a cursed kill. The heroes, meanwhile, take the deaths in stride and just keep racking up more CP for themselves--Level 3 having two unactivated glyphs and three leaders certainly didn't help. Then, for the only combat encounter in the overworld, they just ran away as fast as they could.

So, we're effectively tied on CP at this point. Is this normal?

Posted at

For the most part yes it is normal, but the heroes should have fled on level 2 the moment it got difficult. (grabbing what they could as fast as they could) The first few dungeons the heroes go in on average they should not really go further then the first level unless they are far enough ahead in what they've gotten out of the levels so far. In what you listed the heroes were correct in pushing on after level one but should have cut and run the moment you got ahead of them on conquest. (Note I am the overlord in my current campaign and I have a 2 to 1 lead on the heroes)

NigelTufnel said:

Okay, a little background. This is our first campaign using RtL, and it's really the first time most of us have played Descent. I'm playing the OL as the Sorcerer King, and the four heroes are Varikas the Dead, Steelhorns, Runewitch Ystarra, and Ronan the Wild. I have the first three sessions kind of summarized in my 'played games' on BGG, so I'll just repost that here:

Session #1: Conquest Level = 15 (5 OL + 10 Heroes); first game week

Completed 1st Level of Starfall Forest (1st dungeon)

Monsters faced:

Named Spider Leader
Giant Spiders (x2)
Troll (x1)
Kobolds
Skeleton (x1)

It was our first game of the Advanced Campaign, and took longer than expected due to frequent reference to the rulebook and a long initial explanation of the rules. Great time had by all, though.

Notes: This was the "Web of Lives" (?) dungeon level, I think, and I found it really difficult to spawn anything. The heroes make a real point of fanning out to block all avenues for line of sight (plus, I wasn't sure if monsters could open doors--which I have since discovered they can--so the heroes took everything in order as they wished).

Session #2: Conquest Level = 45 (29 OL + 16 Heroes); first game week

Completed 2nd Level of Starfall Forest (1st dungeon) -- The one with two sorcerer brothers (Ebon and Onyx, I think?)

Monsters faced:

Named Sorcerer Leaders (x2)
Master Naga
Dark Priests (x2, 1 Master)
Blood Apes (x2)
Beastmen (x6, 2 Masters)
Kobolds

Notes: Heroes had a particularly rough time with the Dark Priests, as well as three Beastmen spawned right at the end (one Master). This level went a lot better, I thought.

Session #3: Conquest Level = 74 (46 OL + 28 Heroes)

Completed 3rd Level of Starfall Forest (1st dungeon) -- The Crypt, I think

Three Overworld encounters (two non-combat)

Monsters faced:

Named Sorcerer Leaders (x2)
Named Skeleton Leader
Named Beastman Leader
Beastmen (x3)
Blood Apes (x2)
Master Skeletons (x2)
Skeletons (x8)

Heroes did much better this time around. OL upgraded Eldritch and purchased Snipers.

Alric Farrow successfully razed Dawnsmoor. Merick Farrow entered play.

------------------------

Okay, so after three sessions, we're standing at almost halfway to Silver level. I have now learned, though, that each named leader on a dungeon level gives the listed reward, so I owe the heroes some more conquest and gold. Since Level 2 had two leaders and Level 3 had three, the CP total should actually be 84 (46 OL + 38 heroes).

Hence, this post. Am I really supposed to have twice (or thrice ?) as many CP as the heroes at this point? I honestly don't see how. I only managed one kill on Level 1 of the dungeon (mainly b/c my monsters all stayed behind the doors until the heroes were ready for them), but I had at least three hero kills per level after that--including a cursed kill. The heroes, meanwhile, take the deaths in stride and just keep racking up more CP for themselves--Level 3 having two unactivated glyphs and three leaders certainly didn't help. Then, for the only combat encounter in the overworld, they just ran away as fast as they could.

So, we're effectively tied on CP at this point. Is this normal?

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NigelTufnel said:

So, we're effectively tied on CP at this point. Is this normal?

You appear to have two things significantly affecting your CT totals.

1. The heroes have drawn three high CT value levels (multiple leaders and/or glyphs, and/or prisoners). So the heroes CT is inflated by around 50%.

2. The heroes are playing rather suboptimally - going through an entire dungeon is very foolish early on in the campaign. This has allowed you to get far more CT than you should have as you can collect multiple kills on the second and third levels. It is however, relatively common for inexperienced heroes to do this. Many people just don't intuitively understand the value of fleeing from a dungeon early, some just don't want to do so regardless of 'efficiency', and some simply miss the rules enabling heroes to do so.

So having both values inflated, being more or less equal at this point is not that surprising.
However I would expect you to shoot ahead from here until mid-silver campaign level as Silver Eldritch are good in dungeons and your kill ration should climb drastically (especially if your heroes still won't flee). You should also expect to see lesser CT rewards for the heroes in the remaining dungeon levels.

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I'll be starting my first campaign soon. I'm curious... does anyone have a guess as to how many 'game weeks' it usually takes to get to the end battle?

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Dunno about game weeks, I guess that depends a lot on how many cities the OL gets to raze, and how much the heroes push through the dungeons etc. Though I think we have played around 10-12 sessions in our current campaign (playing from 5pm to midnight) and I expect today being the last session before the final battle as we will probably take a few casualties pushing through the Ironskin rumour.

So that's around 11-13 sessions.

Posted at

How is Alric already razing dawnsmoor and merick is just entering play and yet the heroes have only done one dungeon? What are they doing in all these weeks?

By my count, even if you have siege engines, it still takes 3 weeks to get to Dawnsmoor from the SK's keep, and another 3 weeks for him to drop 3 siege tokens on it, meaning...the 7th week is the earliest alric could get even a chance to roll on Dawnsmoor.

Even if the heroes spend their first week in tamalir shopping (I recommend against, personally...), they should be entering their first dungeon in week 2. From Starfall, you can only go on to another dungeon or back to Tamalir. If you are going back to Tamalir...why not just elect to go there at the end of the turn you complete the dungeon? That way, you can train and possibly upgrade tamalir the 2nd week...or third if you shopped (again, not recommended).

It seems like the heroes not only foolishly pressed on into their first dungeon before upgrading a bit, but also spent a lot of time wasting their weeks away...

Were you moving your Lts. each session as opposed to each game week? Keep in mind the turn you enter and complete the dungeon is still the same week, even if real weeks pass between sessions.

And it says eldritch was upgraded and snipers were purchased? On the same turn? You only may buy one upgrade per game week once again.

Merick is another upgrade. You may move him the same turn you purchase him, but...I'm really confused about the timing of a lot of things the OL did in terms of upgrades and Lt. movement...

Also, you mention 3 overworld encounters in between sessions 2 and 3...but as far as I can tell you were still in the dungeon...?

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Feanor said:

How is Alric already razing dawnsmoor and merick is just entering play and yet the heroes have only done one dungeon? What are they doing in all these weeks?

By my count, even if you have siege engines, it still takes 3 weeks to get to Dawnsmoor from the SK's keep, and another 3 weeks for him to drop 3 siege tokens on it, meaning...the 7th week is the earliest alric could get even a chance to roll on Dawnsmoor.

Even if the heroes spend their first week in tamalir shopping (I recommend against, personally...), they should be entering their first dungeon in week 2. From Starfall, you can only go on to another dungeon or back to Tamalir. If you are going back to Tamalir...why not just elect to go there at the end of the turn you complete the dungeon? That way, you can train and possibly upgrade tamalir the 2nd week...or third if you shopped (again, not recommended).

It seems like the heroes not only foolishly pressed on into their first dungeon before upgrading a bit, but also spent a lot of time wasting their weeks away...

Were you moving your Lts. each session as opposed to each game week? Keep in mind the turn you enter and complete the dungeon is still the same week, even if real weeks pass between sessions.

And it says eldritch was upgraded and snipers were purchased? On the same turn? You only may buy one upgrade per game week once again.

Merick is another upgrade. You may move him the same turn you purchase him, but...I'm really confused about the timing of a lot of things the OL did in terms of upgrades and Lt. movement...

Also, you mention 3 overworld encounters in between sessions 2 and 3...but as far as I can tell you were still in the dungeon...?

It's difficult to recall exactly how many 'weeks' we've been playing, but I'll try:

The heroes entered Starfall Forest on their very first turn--no shopping or preparation beforehand. At that point, Alric was in Bitter Downs, where he remained throughout that dungeon. After the heroes completed the third level of the dungeon, they elected to flee rather than enter the portal (in order to save a week's travel back to Tamalir). After that, I kind of glazed over because the OL doesn't have much to do on the Overworld map. The heroes spent some time in Tamalir, then travelled to Riverwatch, and finally on to Vynelvale. They spent time in each city adding power dice and earning skills, so I know that they remained in each city for at least one week (to enable a 'train' action).

In total, I think that they spent 6-7 weeks on the overworld map after completing the first dungeon. This allowed Alric to move from Bitter Downs to Dawnsmoor (two weeks), add three siege tokens (three weeks), and roll for siege (one week), since Siege Engines are in play (purchased using the initial 15 CP during setup). The siege roll was successful on the first turn it was attempted. Snipers, Eldritch upgrade, and Merrick were each purchased in a different 'week.' Merrick is still in Blackthorn Grove at this point.

I appreciate you taking such a close look at this. If you still see anything unusual, it'd be great to know--I hate screwing up the rules!

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NigelTufnel said:

The heroes entered Starfall Forest on their very first turn--no shopping or preparation beforehand. At that point, Alric was in Bitter Downs, where he remained throughout that dungeon. After the heroes completed the third level of the dungeon, they elected to flee rather than enter the portal (in order to save a week's travel back to Tamalir). After that, I kind of glazed over because the OL doesn't have much to do on the Overworld map. The heroes spent some time in Tamalir, then travelled to Riverwatch, and finally on to Vynelvale. They spent time in each city adding power dice and earning skills, so I know that they remained in each city for at least one week (to enable a 'train' action).

In total, I think that they spent 6-7 weeks on the overworld map after completing the first dungeon. This allowed Alric to move from Bitter Downs to Dawnsmoor (two weeks), add three siege tokens (three weeks), and roll for siege (one week), since Siege Engines are in play (purchased using the initial 15 CP during setup). The siege roll was successful on the first turn it was attempted. Snipers, Eldritch upgrade, and Merrick were each purchased in a different 'week.' Merrick is still in Blackthorn Grove at this point.

Are you saying that the heroes went past three dungeons without going into them? If so, then this is a problem. The heroes should be entering every dungeon they go past to ensure that they are making the most of their turns. Otherwise the OL will pretty much have a free hand to focus solely on the overland map.

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Skywalker said:

NigelTufnel said:

The heroes entered Starfall Forest on their very first turn--no shopping or preparation beforehand. At that point, Alric was in Bitter Downs, where he remained throughout that dungeon. After the heroes completed the third level of the dungeon, they elected to flee rather than enter the portal (in order to save a week's travel back to Tamalir). After that, I kind of glazed over because the OL doesn't have much to do on the Overworld map. The heroes spent some time in Tamalir, then travelled to Riverwatch, and finally on to Vynelvale. They spent time in each city adding power dice and earning skills, so I know that they remained in each city for at least one week (to enable a 'train' action).

In total, I think that they spent 6-7 weeks on the overworld map after completing the first dungeon. This allowed Alric to move from Bitter Downs to Dawnsmoor (two weeks), add three siege tokens (three weeks), and roll for siege (one week), since Siege Engines are in play (purchased using the initial 15 CP during setup). The siege roll was successful on the first turn it was attempted. Snipers, Eldritch upgrade, and Merrick were each purchased in a different 'week.' Merrick is still in Blackthorn Grove at this point.

Are you saying that the heroes went past three dungeons without going into them? If so, then this is a problem. The heroes should be entering every dungeon they go past to ensure that they are making the most of their turns. Otherwise the OL will pretty much have a free hand to focus solely on the overland map.

Yes he is, I think. And that is exactly what has happened. The OL has had a free reign on the mapboard and already razed Dawnsmoor (Acrobat, Taunt).

OTOH the heroes have probably trained up Leadership and another very useful skill or two, which is pretty impressive for so early in the campaign.

Posted at

Corbon said:

Skywalker said:

NigelTufnel said:

The heroes entered Starfall Forest on their very first turn--no shopping or preparation beforehand. At that point, Alric was in Bitter Downs, where he remained throughout that dungeon. After the heroes completed the third level of the dungeon, they elected to flee rather than enter the portal (in order to save a week's travel back to Tamalir). After that, I kind of glazed over because the OL doesn't have much to do on the Overworld map. The heroes spent some time in Tamalir, then travelled to Riverwatch, and finally on to Vynelvale. They spent time in each city adding power dice and earning skills, so I know that they remained in each city for at least one week (to enable a 'train' action).

In total, I think that they spent 6-7 weeks on the overworld map after completing the first dungeon. This allowed Alric to move from Bitter Downs to Dawnsmoor (two weeks), add three siege tokens (three weeks), and roll for siege (one week), since Siege Engines are in play (purchased using the initial 15 CP during setup). The siege roll was successful on the first turn it was attempted. Snipers, Eldritch upgrade, and Merrick were each purchased in a different 'week.' Merrick is still in Blackthorn Grove at this point.

Are you saying that the heroes went past three dungeons without going into them? If so, then this is a problem. The heroes should be entering every dungeon they go past to ensure that they are making the most of their turns. Otherwise the OL will pretty much have a free hand to focus solely on the overland map.

Yes he is, I think. And that is exactly what has happened. The OL has had a free reign on the mapboard and already razed Dawnsmoor (Acrobat, Taunt).

OTOH the heroes have probably trained up Leadership and another very useful skill or two, which is pretty impressive for so early in the campaign.

Yeah, they skipped the dungeons (with the intent to catch them on the way back, I presume). They picked up an additional skill in Vynelvale ('Weapon Mastery' for Steelhorns--Varikas already started the game with Leadership), and added a few black power dice. I'm curious what they plan to do next, but I think I'm sending my Lts. north to raze some cities up there and then focus on buying up some Treachery--either Event or Trap, I guess, though I have no idea. It's difficult to play the game for the first time and make the right decisions, I think, because you don't have a good feel for the game flow and the important steps aren't immediately obvious.

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NigelTufnel said:

Yeah, they skipped the dungeons (with the intent to catch them on the way back, I presume). They picked up an additional skill in Vynelvale ('Weapon Mastery' for Steelhorns--Varikas already started the game with Leadership), and added a few black power dice. I'm curious what they plan to do next, but I think I'm sending my Lts. north to raze some cities up there and then focus on buying up some Treachery--either Event or Trap, I guess, though I have no idea. It's difficult to play the game for the first time and make the right decisions, I think, because you don't have a good feel for the game flow and the important steps aren't immediately obvious.

I agree, RtL requires some studying.

Skipping dungeons has the effect of accelerating time significantly for the OL. As it such a tight race for the heroes and the OL, I find the best tactic is to try and make every turn count. If the heroes had gone into each dungeon along the way, the campaign would be close to Silver by now and the heroes would have far more options on how to deal with the OL.