Not having seen a character with Force Rating in play...does that sound accurate?
a force rating of 3 pretty much guarantees lightside pips to do most basic things. and leaves enough room to commit a force die and still pull off basic stuff most of the time. if you are willing to take the conflict and flip the destiny point 2 force die does everything you need most of the time.
So he's at a total of 270 XP...that should put him squarely in place for the first episode of Rebels.
Give him a basic lightsaber, a blaster pistol, some heavy clothes, and there you have it.
You're missing at least 40XP of Move upgrades, and maybe intro Bind, that he exhibited in Rise of the Old Masters. Sure, you made the cutoff at the first episode, which suggests he didn't know any of that stuff before RotOM...which kind of rings hollow.
I don't think 150XP gets you to Kanan, but then it shouldn't. He and Hera are clearly beyond that, and not suitable targets for starting characters, but suitable characters to try to develop to. Zeb and Sabine probably have 50-100XP. The only "starting" character is Ezra.
So the issue I have is that I want to start the players as complete newbies, but one of them wants to play a Jedi Padawan who was left behind by her master and has spent the last few years hiding out, and has eventually mixed in the Fringe Crowd. A starting character doesn't get all that much to play with in the way of Force Powers, and I guess I'm going to have to tone down the player's expectations of what these types of characters can do. I can here the words, "No super heroics here buddy".
Depending on how you want to handle group resources, Mentors knock down the price for Basic Force Powers by 5xp. Some extra XP tossed at players after each session could also expedite the process since you rather just not start with the Knight Level 150xp and 10,000 credits/lightsaber.
The jedi in Jewel of Yavin has been one for ages and is 3 Force Dice, so I assume that would be a benchmark for 'Knight level'?
In play, we have one character with 5FD and that feels like overkill most of the time.
2 Force dice seem to work fine assuming you're okay with spending strain and flippinga Destiny to do so.
NPCs are not following the same rules as PCs though. NPC rivals and nemeses have to challenge an entire party. That should put those three Force dice into perspective.
Not having seen a character with Force Rating in play...does that sound accurate?
It's not inaccurate. But your mileage may vary. Certain Point of View and all that...
The trick with FR is that it's 1 part of a 3 part equation.
Force rating guarantees a minimum of 1 pip per Die, per roll. What you've bought in the tree determines the "purchasing power" per pip for your character. Willingness to flip a pip to get the results you want determines reliability and how big you can go.
So a character that has an FR of 5 doesn't mean squat if he hasn't bought out the Force tree and isn't willing to flip pips. He'll (roughly) have around white 3 pips to use every time he rolls. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but usually around 3. And those three pips won't get him very far if he's only bought down a tier or two in his trees.
Now take another character that's "only" FR3, but spent the XP the other guy spent to get to FR5 (which would be what...somewhere around 300ish?) and invest that in force power trees, and talents to increase his Strain Threshold, and be totally willing to flip pips. At FR 3 when he activates a power he's always sure that he'll be able to (with some strain, a Dpoint, and a single point of conflict) have a minimum 3 pips to use. AND since he spent all that extra XP on those upgrades his powers will usually hit harder too.
That's why FR is such an issue. On the surface it looks like a clear measure of power, but without the other two points it's not.
That third one can be a big deal from a certain point of view as well. Previous versions of the game (both from WEG and WotC) put a lot of focus on using the trappings of Darkside to balance out the super powers of the force users. This system, not so much, instead it uses the high XP cost and general limitations of the dice. But old habits die hard, and the Jedi have been placed on such a pedestal, so both experienced gamers and newbies tend to resist the urge to flip pips because "using the dark side is bad". Mechanically though, in this system, flipping pips is really not supposed to be a big deal. As long as you aren't doing it a dozen times a session and are otherwise keeping your nose clean it's unlikely your Morality score will drop much.
But the thing I find the most entertaining is how the very thought of "using the dark side" is so distasteful that many people fail to realize that one of the perks of being a "Light Side Paragon" is that you can get away with calling on the dark side to flip pips more often... Where a Darksider, while more likely to get his black pips, will have a smaller Dpoint and Strain pool to pull from when he does need to flip those pips...
As a side note look at the old force power chart from the first Beta, if you're playing a character that isn't allowed to flip pips ever, those power levels make more sense. Kinda gives you an interesting peek at what the Devs may have originally had in mind... and why what we ended up with might be better...
So he's at a total of 270 XP...that should put him squarely in place for the first episode of Rebels.
Give him a basic lightsaber, a blaster pistol, some heavy clothes, and there you have it.
You're missing at least 40XP of Move upgrades, and maybe intro Bind, that he exhibited in Rise of the Old Masters. Sure, you made the cutoff at the first episode, which suggests he didn't know any of that stuff before RotOM...which kind of rings hollow.
And who's to say that Kanan's PC didn't buy some of those abilities later, or that what you see as Bind was a narrative use of Move to keep the Inquisitor at bay? Or that he didn't simply have a really good Move power check with both dice coming up double light side pips, giving him 4 Force points for that particular action. And holding the Inquisitor at bay could have been a narrative description of mechanically moving the guy further away; Star Wars media has generally played far looser and much faster with what the Force can do.
Presuming that just because Kanan demonstrated an ability later in the season doesn't mean he had to have it at the start of the season, and thus is a fallacy. It's actually a long-standing trope called Chekhov's Skill where you see some minor sign or mention of an ability a character has, only to have a much more noticeable/powerful demonstration of that ability later in the story. Kanan started out with Move, and his PC simply opted to buy a couple more upgrades in between the campaign start and RotOM. Just because we didn't see him actively developing these abilities on the screen doesn't mean he could develop them behind the scenes. And I'm sure there have been countless campaigns where a PC has demonstrated some newly purchased ability that was handwaved in the campaign as "I could always do that, I just didn't need to before now."
Also, it's a TV show, and thus not bound by RPG rules, or really any other rules in terms of who can do what beyond the general needs of the story. If Ezra needs to suddenly do a Force throw to save Zeb, then for sake of the story he can do it. If Kanan needs to suddenly be able to hold an opponent in place for a few minutes, then for the sake of the story he can do it.
Ghostofman has a very good point, in that Force Rating by itself doesn't tell the whole story.
Per remarks by Sam Stewart in last night's Order 66 episode, part of the default assumption with Force users and how capable they are in this system is that they will be converting dark side pips into usable Force Points. and thus generating Conflict (which fits thematically for the default era of play as the Force is out-of-balance and the dark side ascendant). If a player wishes to not convert those points, they've made a willing choice to intentionally curb their character's overall power.
Not having seen a character with Force Rating in play...does that sound accurate?
Based on the stress tests I did for both EotE Beta, I'd say Force Rating 3 is sufficient proficiency to be able to activate at least the basic effect of a Force power and one or two upgrades without being reliant upon converting dark side pips into Force Points.
To put it D6 terms, it's akin to 6D in Control, Sense, and Alter, which is enough that you can hit the listed Difficulty for almost all the powers provided, and in many cases can take the multiple action penalty to fire off a power that requires multiple Force skills in a single round.
Or in Saga Edition terms if you prefer, it's akin to a 6th level Force user with Skill Focus (Use the Force) and a +1 bonus from Charisma; again it's enough to hit the minimum DC for the vast majority of powers without really needing to roll (since a 1 on a skill check isn't an automatic failure) and a very good chance of hitting the higher DCs for most of the core rulebook powers.
Based on the stress tests I did for both EotE Beta, I'd say Force Rating 3 is sufficient proficiency to be able to activate at least the basic effect of a Force power and one or two upgrades without being reliant upon converting dark side pips into Force Points.Not having seen a character with Force Rating in play...does that sound accurate?
Yep, and plus that, it allows you to commit a couple dice (say to the two Sense control upgrades for attack & defense, or say Enhance for Agility/Brawn) and still have a die in reserve for doing other Force-related shenanigans. So it ends up making for a very well-rounded Force user.
Presuming that just because Kanan demonstrated an ability later in the season doesn't mean he had to have it at the start of the season, and thus is a fallacy.
The fallacy is pretending that he didn't have it already. It makes no sense "in-universe" to decide to take on a Padawan and *then* go learn all about Move. I don't see these characters changing that much between episodes. Sure, you can explain it away if you arbitrarily stick with game mechanical terms to try and shoe-horn something to fit your preconceptions, but it makes no sense for the story or character.
And of course he could have used Move against the Inquisitor, which is why I phrased Bind as a "maybe".
Seems a bit side-tracked to start talking about a cartoon.
FFG was trying to create a balanced RPG, not emulate a TV show.
As Donovan pointed out, everyone in these things has whatever the scriptwriter needs them to have at that moment.
And if anything, the game has the themes of the original movies, before the Jedi became anime ninjas. And you want superheroes, you can go way beyond what the movies show providing you pay through the nose with a lot of XP.
Edited by MaeloraRegarding Kanan, I was just trying to show how one might build an individual with the "abilities" we see on the TV show. I won't argue that Kanan is or isn't a starting character, and I'm not looking to get into a debate about what he displays in Miller's novel (which I still haven't read...). But if you're looking for a guy with an Edgy feel that that can also handle "focus your fire...on the Jedi," I feel like my build is a pretty decent start and it gives you a framework around which to invest the next few hundred XP (fleshing out his two specializations, buying up his power trees).
Putting aside all the accusations of fallacies, even as important to the discussion as they are...
It makes no sense "in-universe" to decide to take on a Padawan and *then* go learn all about Move. I don't see these characters changing that much between episodes. Sure, you can explain it away if you arbitrarily stick with game mechanical terms to try and shoe-horn something to fit your preconceptions, but it makes no sense for the story or character.
1) Not really trying to shoe-horn anything here. Just trying to stick with a core concept that can be fleshed out.
2) Skills atrophy if you don't use them. Muscle memory get "rusty," knowledge fades, and even a master of a subject can become "out of practice" by, well, not...practicing. This is a basis for so many character concepts, especially bringing an "experienced" character in as a starting PC. You can make a starting PC who is "too old for this s***," simply statting what makes him a "hero" with little more than flavorful nod to his past occupation & experience. This is where the career comes in; the core of who the character is. He was a "Jedi" who, long ago, became an Exile and has spent the majority of his experience on the Edge.
3) I apologize if I've offended anyone sense of sensibility in only giving Kanan 150 XP. But unless GM Hooly was looking for a full writeup based on the entirety of our canonical knowledge of Kanan Jarrus, I hardly think my build nonsensical.
For those that never got the beta rules, here is what they initially said:
FR MAGNITUDE EXAMPLE
0 No affinity Common populace
1 Sensitive Jedi Initiate
2 Tenuous A self taught exile; Padawan
3 Moderate A young Jedi Knight
4 Strong A well-trained Jedi Knight
5 Potent A veteran Jedi Knight
6 Formidable Jedi Master; Sith Lord
7 Legendary The most truly heroic Jedi or the most villainous Sith Lords
And then they completely removed it, suggesting that they felt it was incorrect or unnecessary, so using it isn't especially useful.
Presuming that just because Kanan demonstrated an ability later in the season doesn't mean he had to have it at the start of the season, and thus is a fallacy.
The fallacy is pretending that he didn't have it already. It makes no sense "in-universe" to decide to take on a Padawan and *then* go learn all about Move. I don't see these characters changing that much between episodes. Sure, you can explain it away if you arbitrarily stick with game mechanical terms to try and shoe-horn something to fit your preconceptions, but it makes no sense for the story or character.
And of course he could have used Move against the Inquisitor, which is why I phrased Bind as a "maybe".
However, there is nothing wrong with him 'having' Move, but only buying it with XP when he first needed to use it.
Regarding Kanan, I was just trying to show how one might build an individual with the "abilities" we see on the TV show. I won't argue that Kanan is or isn't a starting character, and I'm not looking to get into a debate about what he displays in Miller's novel (which I still haven't read...). But if you're looking for a guy with an Edgy feel that that can also handle "focus your fire...on the Jedi," I feel like my build is a pretty decent start and it gives you a framework around which to invest the next few hundred XP (fleshing out his two specializations, buying up his power trees).
Actually this brings up a good point we need to be ready for. As the canon gets reintroduced or expanded we're going to have the problem of a character in one media showing certain skills and in another showing others.
So Jedi Master Flex might show up on the cartoon able to be made at +150XP but then show up in a prequel novel showing additional skills talents and abilities that no longer mesh.
Can't make everyone happy, but at least we can admit that now...
At least the F&D release went ok so maybe when the new films start coming out it won't be a total poop storm here.
But if you're looking for a guy with an Edgy feel that that can also handle "focus your fire...on the Jedi," I feel like my build is a pretty decent start and it gives you a framework around which to invest the next few hundred XP (fleshing out his two specializations, buying up his power trees).
I won't disagree with that, it's a good build for "a guy with an Edgy feel", etc. But you specifically did say you were stating out Kanan, which I think is probably not worth doing if you're not going to take in the broader context of the story.
But if you're looking for a guy with an Edgy feel that that can also handle "focus your fire...on the Jedi," I feel like my build is a pretty decent start and it gives you a framework around which to invest the next few hundred XP (fleshing out his two specializations, buying up his power trees).
I won't disagree with that, it's a good build for "a guy with an Edgy feel", etc. But you specifically did say you were stating out Kanan, which I think is probably not worth doing if you're not going to take in the broader context of the story.
I did address this concern in the rest of my post, I think. And Ghostofman also just posted up a good point to consider in succinct summation.
GM Hooly made a reference to "the Jedi character in Rebels," and so I'm thinking maybe he (like the vast majority of Rebels viewers) he hasn't read A New Dawn. But even considering this novel, it can simply count as a richer "backstory." So there's your broader context.
Taking "the Jedi character in Rebels" and seeing what he can do, with Rebels season 1 episode 1 as "Session 1 of GM Filoni's new campaign," he matches well the flavor and mechanics of what we see. I'd put him at +50 XP by the time of Rise of the Old Masters (season 1 episode 3), so when he exhibits a fuller use of the Move ability (as well as—possibly—Enhance to jump down from the Ghost all boss-style) it is well within believabliltiy, and meshes with organic PC development.
As they say, "there's no accounting for taste." If you wanted to take this a different direction as a GM or player playing the "Kanan Jarrus" character, starting the campaign at the beginning of A New Dawn or even at the onset of Order 66, that is totally up to your style of play. But, given the points that have been made thus far, my concept still holds water and is a good example of Knight Level play in action with an established character.
Edited by awayputurwpn
For those that never got the beta rules, here is what they initially said:
FR MAGNITUDE EXAMPLE
0 No affinity Common populace
1 Sensitive Jedi Initiate
2 Tenuous A self taught exile; Padawan
3 Moderate A young Jedi Knight
4 Strong A well-trained Jedi Knight
5 Potent A veteran Jedi Knight
6 Formidable Jedi Master; Sith Lord
7 Legendary The most truly heroic Jedi or the most villainous Sith Lords
And then they completely removed it, suggesting that they felt it was incorrect or unnecessary, so using it isn't especially useful.
I get that, but since some have been talking about this table, and not everyone has the EotE BETA, I thought it pertinent to include it rather than everyone be reading the discussion half blind
Firstly, I'd like to thank Awayputurwpn. Their example, although not necessarily accurate (as it wasn't their intent to do so) highlighted to me that the 150XP can be used to create an effective character with just that little bit of experience, but not so powerful to over-power the other PCs and in turn overpower a new campaign (and a new GM - that would be me for this system).
My only concern now appears to be the use of the words "Knight Level". I guess its just a word, but one that FFG should consider to be one that creates a certain level of expectation for new-comers who may be new to the hobby and had only experiences what they saw on TV/Movies, and to those more experienced in all facets of Star Wars Lore.
TL;DR: A more complete Kanan Stat Block can be found below. This is an experiment on how much it would realistically take to build the character Kanan Jarrus from the new Star Wars Rebels.
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@awayputurwpn
That is a very incomplete Kanan. If you’re going solely based on what you see him do the first episode, then you added some stuff the audience hadn’t see him do yet, like Move and Influence. He also does a bunch of other stuff that isn’t reflected in this current build, like improved reflect.
However, it’s a good start. And one of the things I’ve brought up several times is the lack of character creation on this forum, with proper stats. It is a beta after all, and you can’t fully test a system with just cursory theorycrafting. The mechanics of character creation is less objective and offers a more concrete view.
Therefore, I’d like to add to your current iteration of Kanan to reflect almost everything we see him do up to the current episode, which is “Empire Day”. I’ll give my reasonings based on what we actually see him do on screen, and reference particularly episode and scenes when appropriate. I’ll keep spoilers to a minimum as much as possible, and be vague with any particularly referenced scenes. We’ll assume that XP is given out at the end of each episode at a base rate. This includes the first episode, even though I know it’s slightly longer than the others, but for the sake of simplicity we’ll keep it all even. I’ll even be as frugal as possible with XP and only get the bare necessities of things. I'm also solely going off the show because I've yet to read "A New Dawn", so anything he gains or shows in that I'm not sure of.
The point is also to show mechanically what we see him do. I will not be using “narrative fluff” or GM fiat as a crutch as much as possible, even though everyone on this forum seems to love to push that idea. However, I think it’s important to use the RAW logically in order to see what one can really do based on the logical foundations of this system. Using “narrative fluff” as an excuse for everything--well, might as well not even have rules to begin with.
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Talents (Total 90 XP):
As far as talents go, Kanan is going to need Improved Reflect and Improved Parry. You see him do Reflect a few times just in the first episode, and Improved Parry in the 4th “Rise of the Old Masters” with his duel with the Inquisitor. He’s got so far Parry--Soresu Technique--Reflect for 25 xp. He’s going to need to get up to at least Improved Reflect at the bottom. So from your first Reflect we go: Parry Improved--Defensive Circle--Reflect--Reflect Improved. That’s for 75 additional xp. Defensive Circle is appropriate because he does use his abilities to essentially defend his nearby allies within short range. I would argue he should also have Strategic form as well. That scene in particular where the agent says “Focus your fire...on the Jedi!” seems like the most obvious use of the talent, making all the stormtroopers attack Kanan instead. But, I’m trying to be frugal, so I guess we can just chalk all that up to “narrative fluff” and not give it to him yet.
The Force Sensitive Exile I think is an elegant spec for him to have. It makes the most sense, has a lot of good talents that Kanan would have, and represents his incomplete training from Padawan to “Faux-Knighthood”. He’s got the whole left side up to Force Rating. That’s all good. However, I would say he could use Uncanny Reactions to Quick Draw on the right, for another 15 xp. Why? Well, Kanan is somewhat vigilant, but more importantly, he really is quick on the draw. You see him pull out his blaster and quick shoot stormtroopers several times. He also quickly assembles his lightsaber while in battle, considering it’s in two pieces. So I think it’s appropriate for him to have those skills, and quick draw being in the Exile tree which he already has, gives us the path to least resistance.
So that’s pretty much it for talents. I would argue he would need a few more to really round out what we see him do, and if you really want to get into it, I would say he needs Smuggler Scoundrel to represent his new life as one, but we’re trying to be frugal and stick with the talents that make the most sense currently.
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Skills (Total 50 XP):
For skills he’s currently got: Brawl (1), Cool (1), Discipline (2), Lightsaber (1), Ranged Light (1), Deception (1).
I think those are all good so far. He’s pretty good with hand to hand fighting as you can see in the fourth episode. I would say maybe he deserves 2 ranks in it, but that’s fine for now. Cool makes sense for the way he acts. Discipline also is good, mainly for the use of force powers, and being a Form III practitioner he’ll need the strain refund after each encounter to keep going. Lightsaber at one rank I think may very well be appropriate at this stage, because if you see in his duel with the Inquisitor in the fourth episode, he’s not exactly overly proficient with the saber. He’s good enough to hold him off, but that’s about it so far. Ranged Light makes sense because you see him use a small blaster and grenades regularly. He maybe should be at rank 2 for that since he’s pretty good with a blaster, but it’s fine for now. Deception at one rank sort of makes sense to represent his new life as a smuggler, but we don’t see him do all that much in the way of deception. The latest episode "Empire Day" he does so, but isn't that great at it. So I think Deception makes sense where it’s at for now.
Ok, we’re still missing lots of other things he does in the show so far, so let’s fill it in LOGICALLY on what we've seen. He’s gotta get a rank in Pilot Space, and Pilot Planetary for 20 xp. He uses a speeder bike and other transports a bunch of times in the show thus far, so he’s gotta at least have one rank in Pilot Planetary As far as Pilot Space goes, you see him use the Phantom shuttle, and he helps Hera Co-Pilot. I would say it’s appropriate for him to get at least one rank. He’s also going to need one rank of Gunnery for 10 XP. You see him get on the Ghost’s guns a bunch of times, and Hera has specifically yelled out “I need my Gunner!” a few times in the show, signalling Kanan to get on it.
You can argue perhaps that his 3 agility is enough to help him with all those tasks, and that individual ranks in it are unnecessary, but I am unconvinced. You see him do these things fairly regularly and with some proficiency and skill.
Now, we see Kanan do some other underhanded and mundane stuff in relation to his smuggling/underworld persona. In the first two episodes we see him deal with a Devaronian a few times. In those moments we see Kanan haggle and negotiate with this Devaronian. Therefore, it would be appropriate for Kanan to have 1 rank in Negotiation for 10 XP. He also seems to get a lot of information for underworld stuff, and his knowledge in dealing with the more seedy elements; therefore, I think it appropriate for Kanan to also get Knowledge Underworld for one rank for another 10 XP. I think these are all appropriate because Kanan sort of acts as the Face for the group, along with Hera. I think him having at least one rank in those skills accurately represents his dealings. Hera on the other hand probably has more ranks in those individual skills, along with stuff like Black Market Contacts, no doubt. So if anything, instead of this being “narrative fluff” it would be appropriate and make sense that she adds her abilities to his in the form of Assisted Skill Checks.
Overall, I think these abilities more than fit and are completely appropriate, as well as being mechanically in line with what we see him do on the show thus far.
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Force Powers (Total 100 XP):
Force powers I think is perhaps the most erroneous as he’s missing out on a heck of a lot we see him do by just the fourth episode. But it is a good start what he currently has.
Currently, he posses: Move at base, Influence with Control Emotion/Belief, Sense with Defense Control Upgrade.
Alright, well let’s start with Move. By the fourth episode we see him disarm two troopers, throw two troopers, move a very large blast door of at least Silhouette 2 (I know he had Ezra’s help, and I’ll get to that in a moment), and manage to pull someone from at least medium range. Ok, knowing all this we’re going to need to give him Strength up to 2 for 20 XP, in order to represent his ability to pick up stormtroopers and other people of Silhouette 1, and to represent him at least moving the blast door in the fourth episode “Rise of the Old Masters”. He grabs a falling Ezra in that same episode, who fell at least to medium range; so he’s going to need at least one Range Band Upgrade for another 5 XP, since the base is only short range. You need to give him the two Control Upgrades on the right to demonstrate his ability to throw/hurl people and disarm them, so that’s another 15 XP. Also, since he does it to at least 2 stormtroopers, he’s going to need at least one Magnitude upgrade for 5 XP. So that’s 45 XP for move.
Now, you might argue that he doesn't need the second Strength Upgrade because of everyone’s favorite concept of “narrative fluff” to allow him to open the blast door with Ezra. However, that’s a bit too much fluff, especially when you have mechanics that easily backup what they do. Ezra is just a neophyte to the force as well, and hasn't learned the Move power yet. However, what I think more accurately represents that scene is this: Kanan and the crew are stuck, Ezra can’t get the door opened with his Skulduggery , and the Inquisitor is on their backs. Knowing that he only has a FR of 2, Kanan could get the door opened, but very well could fail to generate enough pips to do it. He’s not going to rely on dark side pips as of yet because he’s most likely used some already thus far, and has enough conflict from the whole infiltration scenes from the same episode on top. He asks Ezra’s help to get the door opened, and through some GM fiat, is allowed to do an Assisted Skill Check with Ezra to get it opened. Whatever that entails is up to you, but what I think makes the most sense is that Ezra adds a boost die to the roll, and rolls his FR of one to gain a light side point or two, which gets added to whatever Kanan rolls.
I think that’s the most elegant, logical, and practical solution to that scene if it were run as a game session.
Now to continue, we go into Influence. He uses Mind Trick on two stormtroopers in the same episode. However, base power only allows for one engaged target at a time. He would need the Magnitude Upgrade for 5 XP in order to Influence both.
As far as Sense goes, the Control Defense Upgrade is good. However, Kanan in several episodes uses Sense in a much broader way. He “senses” the prisoner in “Rise of the Old Masters” several floors down. He senses Ezra’s thoughts in other episodes as well from a distance. He would then need Control Sense Thoughts for 10 XP. He then would need at least two Range Bands to get to Medium Range for another 15 XP. The base Control Sense Thoughts is only at engaged ranged. We see Kanan sense things much farther away; so I think Medium Range is appropriate.
Now one power that was not added which very much should be is Enhance. Kanan leaps a few times--and even sort of floats upwards in the latest episode. He would then need the base power, which we’ll give him the Mentor benefit for 5 xp. Then the two Controls for Force Leap for 20 XP...which as an aside I think is an unnecessary extraneous cost to have it broken up like that...but it is what it is at this point. Kanan at least jumps to Medium Range the few times you see him do so, but for the sake of being some what frugal, we’ll say all his jumps were within Short Range. I was fairly generous with his Move force power since we see him do that more, I think just leaving it at the two Control Upgrades for Enhance is appropriate.
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Now some general notes and possible discussions with the Force Powers:
I was fairly less frugal with the Move power because I think that’s what best fits what we've seen narratively and mechanically. You COULD argue that Kanan doesn't need the magnitude upgrade to affect multiple stormtroopers at this point. I’m personally not sure how kosher it is game play wise, but I suppose the force powers can still be used on minions following all the same minion rules. Meaning, Kanan could do the Hurl/Throw portion, doing base 10 damage for the Silhouette 1 stormtroopers, plus the Discipline check, and the damage gained off that roll is two minions worth. Meaning in that scene where he throws 2 stormtroopers off the balcony, you could claim that in narrative terms he simply did enough damage on the roll, and it’s narratively fluffed up to show him flinging the stormtroopers. Same could go for the Pull Control power. He rolled enough success or gained enough advantage that he could pull two weapons instead of just one, from the stormtroopers.
I don’t know exactly if that is allowed to play out in mechanical terms and RAW. I personally would let that fly in my own games myself, as I’m sure many of you would as well. However, there are plenty of GMs out there who wouldn't, and are more strict with interpretation. With that in mind, I wanted to have a mechanical foundation for everything we see Kanan do, that way it’s not left up to fluff or the whims of the GM at all times. If I spent the XP to gain those upgrades to the Move power, I want to be able to use them to full effect, if and when I roll the appropriate amount of success and pips. I don’t want to have to rely on narrative fluff when doing stuff like that, especially if I have to deal with a hardliner GM who insists on everything done is per RAW.
As for the other Force Powers, I think again, those are appropriate to fully display mechanically what we've seen Kanan do. It’s all less reliant on GM and player interpretation, and has a strong foundation and basis with RAW.
As for talents and skills, I personally feel like Kanan deserves to have more in the way of talents and skills, such as Strategic Form, Defensive Stance and possibly some Smuggler stuff. Certainly he should have more ranks in Parry and Reflect, considering he held off 10 stormtroopers and Agent Callus in the first episode. You would have to consider Callus at least a Rival, though most likely more a Nemesis. The Inquisitor would be a Nemesis as well. Kanan wouldn’t last nearly as long as he did against the Inquisitor with just 1 rank of Parry and nothing else like Defensive Stance. And certainly would have a hard time with Callus and regular stormtroopers with just 2 ranks of Reflect, but I guess Sixth Sense would help.
But that’s all good and well, and if we just want to represent what Kanan can do mechanically, then what we've got is probably the best foundation for it. After all , careers and specializations are just a guide, and don’t dictate exactly who or what a character always is.
You could argue that you can also change around a lot of skills, talents, and beginning characteristic costs. You don’t NEED to have 3s in a lot of the characteristics, and the XP you save with that would help a good deal. That being said, I think what awayputurwpn has put forth already is a good starting point. Most players are going to put as much XP in characteristics at creation anyway, since it’s too good not to pass up due to the nature of the system. However, I’m pretty confident what we've got is the best iteration of Kanan.
“There is more than one way to skin a cat”, as the saying goes, so anyone is welcome to try their hand at how Kanan should look like. However, trying to put in as much narrative interpretation as possible in order to skimp out on obvious things we see him do is NOT an answer. It should follow a logical foundation based on hard mechanics, and a progression of game play we know possible per RAW. Constantly hand-waving things saying it’s up the GM and player interpretation is a cheap cop out, and a disregard for the system mechanics FFG has laid out in place for us. I understand the whole point of the core books is that it IS a narrative system, but if everything can be left up to interpretation and “narrative fluff” then why bother having the mechanics? Especially since everyone here has been stating that it is still a game, and therefore bound by mechanics which need to be balanced for the sake of the game system.
To also sum up what I've stat Kanan out to do, the total amount of XP required AFTER the 150 XP is 240. My math may be wrong, but I’m also using Oggdude’s generator. That means in total, to make Kanan Jarrus from Rebels, one would need a total of 510 xp. 120 from creation, 150 for Knight Play, and an additional 240.
We’ll say the 240 XP after Knight Play was accumulated after each episode. That would be about 60 xp per episode up to the fourth which is “Rise of the Old Masters”; where by then, we see Kanan do a lot of the stuff I've laid out in this creation. If it were a steady XP flow between all current episodes, which would be 7, then it would about 34 xp per episode. I’m simply dividing amount of episodes by the XP currently earned in order to make it simple and even. You could argue that he gets more XP in certain episodes than others, but just for the sake of this experiment, we’ll keep it simple.
If we were to play Kanan from the start in an actual RP game as a group, and he did not have Knight level XP, it would be 390 XP to get him to where he needs to be. Assuming you actually get 34 XP per session/episode, it would take roughly 11 games to get there. However, I think it’s more reasonable to assume 25 - 30 XP per session. And that’s being fairly generous, based on the guidelines given out in the core books thus far for XP awards. If you followed that xp rate, it would be roughly 15 games at 25 XP per session, or 13 games at 30 XP per session. Roughly 3-4 months of game play, which isn't terrible. However, he’s still not exactly where he should be. But I think that’s more an issue with certain mechanics and talents being somewhat lackluster, like Parry, Reflect, and Improved Reflect and Parry respectively.
Realistically, it will take all the other non-force using characters on the show far less time to actualize their concepts, and get to what you can see them do on screen far faster than you could with Kanan. At least that’s my theory, and I will like to stat out the rest of the crew later.
I think this is something that really needs to be done more often. Beta seems to be winding down at any rate, but there has been a distinct lack of character creation threads and hard look at mechanics. It’s all been mostly theory-crafting based on specific mechanics, with a lot of conjecture thrown in. I’d like to maybe start a thread on creating characters and stat-ing out what they can do, the logic behind the stats, and explain what they would be good for. Is this totally unreasonable?
Here is the Stat Block for Kanan of Rebels:
Kanan Jarrus
Start XP : 120 (+10 from Morality Drop)/ Earned XP : 390 (Knight Level Play: 150, Per Session: 240) / Total XP : 510
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Morality:
Strength: Discipline / Weakness: Obstinateness / Morality Score: Approx 40-50
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Characteristics:
Brawn: 2 / Agility: 3 / Intellect: 3 / Cunning: 2 / Willpower: 3 / Presence: 2
Derived Stats:
Wound: 12 / Strain: 13 / Defense: Ranged 1 / Soak: 3
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Career & Specializations:
Career: Guardian / Specializations: Soresu Defender, Force Sensitive Exile
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Talents & Skills:
Talents:
Parry x1, Reflect x 2, Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, Soresu Technique, Defensive Circle, Uncanny Senses, Convincing Demeanor, Sense Danger, Street Smarts, Sixth Sense, Force Rating + 1, Uncanny Reactions, Quick Draw
Skills:
Brawl (1), Cool (1), Deception (1), Discipline (2), Gunnery (1), Lightsaber (1), Negotiation (1), Piloting - Planetary (1), Piloting - Space (1), Ranged - Light (1), Underworld (1),
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Equipment:
Basic Lightsaber, Heavy Clothing, Light Blaster Pistol, Miscellaneous gear.
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Edited by DeepEyes357
Regarding Kanan, I was just trying to show how one might build an individual with the "abilities" we see on the TV show. I won't argue that Kanan is or isn't a starting character, and I'm not looking to get into a debate about what he displays in Miller's novel (which I still haven't read...). But if you're looking for a guy with an Edgy feel that that can also handle "focus your fire...on the Jedi," I feel like my build is a pretty decent start and it gives you a framework around which to invest the next few hundred XP (fleshing out his two specializations, buying up his power trees).
Actually this brings up a good point we need to be ready for. As the canon gets reintroduced or expanded we're going to have the problem of a character in one media showing certain skills and in another showing others.
So Jedi Master Flex might show up on the cartoon able to be made at +150XP but then show up in a prequel novel showing additional skills talents and abilities that no longer mesh.
Can't make everyone happy, but at least we can admit that now...
At least the F&D release went ok so maybe when the new films start coming out it won't be a total poop storm here.
This is a very good point to bring up.
http://unknownregionsbrewery.wordpress.com/2014/11/13/star-wars-rpg-and-rebels-a-perfect-match/
This has been making its way around. I've seen it on Reddit's /r/swrpg, /r/starwarsrebels, and /r/starwars subreddits. Rebels is the new canon and is pushing forward the new Star Wars. A lot of people are enjoying it, and no doubt that FFG's Star Wars is going to be looked at by a lot more people. I've seen some comments made already how Rebels feels like a tabletop adventure, and very similiar to Firefly.
However, I will posit that F&D is still not where it's supposed to be in terms of force using characters people are able to make. Anyone who comes in wanting to play or recreate their favorite heroes from the show may very well get disappointed with what they get as opposed what their expectations are. I suppose only time will tell.
I certainly cannot possibly be the first person to have noticed this... But outside the RPGs it seems that all Jedi (and, possibly, all Force Users) have access to all of what FFG has defined as Force Powers simply by being Force Sensitive.
The big difference is training, practice, talent and such.
In RPG terms it would be akin to paying for only the upgrades and not the initial power... Which is not something I am advocating, by any means*.
Although a very general rule for using unfamiliar Force Powers without any prior training might have some merit. Does F&D have such a thing**?
* But my curiosity may spark an experimental playtest.
**
Waiting to be embarrassed by someone citing a rule for that in EotE that I missed
This is why I tend to stay out of the F&D Beta arguments; insane over-expectations from some fans who want to be overpowered anime superheroes right from the start.
'+5 to starting Force Dice?' Srsly?
(where is ErikB when we need him?
The system looks fine to me. You can do insane superhero stuff if you want - as long as you have lots and lots and lots of XP. If your GM wants a superhero campaign he can have one by starting you off at higher levels, whether that's 150 XP or 1500 XP or whatever they think is fitting.
The only thing FFG seem to have got wrong is not the system but the description of 'Knight level' setting unrealistic standards after 30+ years of overpowered Jedi fanfiction.
Maelora, please do not take what I'm going to say as an attack, as I enjoy your posts and reading what you have to say. However, I take issue with this statement you keep making. I've seen it for awhile now, this whole "people want anime superheroes based on 30+ years of Jedi fanfiction".
What fan-fiction are you referring to? If it's all the material we've been given over the years that was canon, and now Legends, and all the media including books, television shows, and games...then I would think the writers/creators of all that media would not appreciate being told their stuff is simple fan-fiction and wish fulfillment of power trips based on "Jedi Heroes".
Writers such as R.A. Salvatore, Timothy Zahn, James Luceno, Michael A. Stackpole, Karen Traviss, and many others. Many of which, are New York Times Best Sellers, science fiction writers, and even tabletop gaming enthusiast and developers.
Even Dave Filoni, the creator of The Clone Wars Cartoons, and now Star Wars Rebels is very detail oriented when it comes to Star Wars, and you can see from his discussions and interviews that he has a good mind for it, and seems to care very much for the setting and lore.
To be so dismissive of all these creators to me seems so strange.
They were the ones who helped push the EU to get Star Wars were it is today. Timothy Zahn himself was the first to really get the ball rolling.
Now I know a lot of what is out there can be pretty crap. The EU--now Legends--is full of ridiculous stuff and power levels over 9000 when it comes to some stuff Jedi do. I dislike in Swtor how the Emperor apparently sucked the life out of a planet to become immortal. What the heck is he, Galactus? I dislike a lot of other decisions like bringing back Maul, the over the top gaming experiences like the Force Unleashed and by Extension Starkiller. I dislike the Vong--and I don't care what anyone says, they're terrible! The Vong as an antagonist is one of the only things I will never accept as part of the Star Wars Universe haha.
However, if our frame of reference was only say, the 2003 Clone Wars Cartoon, and the Force Unleashed, I would agree. But I think what we've had, and what we continue to get now with the new canon, is pretty good.
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As to what everyone else who has been arguing about how this is only a game and is not supposed to emulate the shows and movies, or everything we've seen is based on plot, and that we shouldn't be looking at them so much...
Those are a lot of intellectual disingenuous arguments you're making.
This thread alone, a lot of you have been arguing from positions of canon, and what we've seen done in films and other media. I can go back even further in a lot of other threads and link the myriad of comments made that argue from specific premises on what we should expect from what we see in canon, and what we shouldn't. Suddenly though, everyone back tracks and is like "this isn't a simulation, they're just movies, you can't stat things based on the movies, they are their own things, we shouldn't rely on them". That's totally bogus. Especially since people like to argue from positions of canon, but only in times when it serves their own needs and to further a specific idea or agenda.
For the record, I mostly agree. A lot of what you see in movies and narrative fluff you shouldn't have to worry about getting 100% in your games. However, this is still a game system based on Star Wars, and a certain amount of material already presented should be taken into account when discussing the mechanics.
Either stick to framing your arguments using canon/Legends/Star Wars Material in a logical progression or go at it from a purely mechanical based approach with overall game play balance kept in mind. Stop flip flopping between half-arguments and logical fallacies in order to circumvent valid points.
Edited by DeepEyes357I certainly cannot possibly be the first person to have noticed this... But outside the RPGs it seems that all Jedi (and, possibly, all Force Users) have access to all of what FFG has defined as Force Powers simply by being Force Sensitive.
The big difference is training, practice, talent and such.
In RPG terms it would be akin to paying for only the upgrades and not the initial power... Which is not something I am advocating, by any means*.
Although a very general rule for using unfamiliar Force Powers without any prior training might have some merit. Does F&D have such a thing**?
* But my curiosity may spark an experimental playtest.
** Waiting to be embarrassed by someone citing a rule for that in EotE that I missed
Are you referring to things like certain force users calling upon abilities they wouldn't otherwise know without some training? **Star Wars Rebels Spoiler in case you haven't seen it, then ignore**
For Instance, like Ezra in Rebels basically using Enhance or Move to hurl someone on accident?
I think a lot of that can be covered by GM fiat. There was a discussion on that actually in the Game Mechanics forum. I would simple let it be done only in a rare and dramatic scene that makes sense, using a Discipline Check, and requiring a Destiny Point.
But no, I don't think there are any real hard and fast rules on how to properly emulate that in F&D or any of the other books.
Edited by DeepEyes357