Wow, I hadn't even noticed that saber throwing was a talent since none of my current players have Ataru. I figured it would be covered under Move's third Control upgrade.

It's also in Shien and Aggressor, iirc. Since canonically we've rarely seen this done (Vader and Yoda in the movies, Savage and maybe a couple others in TCW), I don't mind the scarcity of this talent, though I do agree it seems like something that could easily be done with Move and some narration.

They actually took it out of Aggressor. But I do agree, I like the scarcity of the talent. It's iconic, but not prolific.

However, I don't agree that the Move power is appropriate for this attack mechanic. I like the fact that it's a talent.

They actually took it out of Aggressor. But I do agree, I like the scarcity of the talent. It's iconic, but not prolific.

However, I don't agree that the Move power is appropriate for this attack mechanic. I like the fact that it's a talent.

Oh, right. My mistake.

I also like that it's a talent, but I wouldn't disallow my players from trying to do it with Move. Especially considering if someone wants to use Move to do damage, you can do alot more just chucking big metal pipes at people than you could throwing a lightsaber.

They actually took it out of Aggressor. But I do agree, I like the scarcity of the talent. It's iconic, but not prolific.

However, I don't agree that the Move power is appropriate for this attack mechanic. I like the fact that it's a talent.

Oh, right. My mistake.

I also like that it's a talent, but I wouldn't disallow my players from trying to do it with Move. Especially considering if someone wants to use Move to do damage, you can do alot more just chucking big metal pipes at people than you could throwing a lightsaber.

Totally, they can throw their lightsaber, but I'd either treat it as an improvised weapon at that point (and you know I'd be upgrading that difficulty with a dark side Destiny Point) or just use the normal Move: Hurl damage profile of 5 damage sans Breach. Perhaps a Triumph in the mix could earn you Breach 1.

Totally, they can throw their lightsaber, but I'd either treat it as an improvised weapon at that point (and you know I'd be upgrading that difficulty with a dark side Destiny Point) or just use the normal Move: Hurl damage profile of 5 damage sans Breach. Perhaps a Triumph in the mix could earn you Breach 1.

I would probably let them get breach by spending a Force point, representing the control aspect of the Force Power. Or let them blow enough advantages to crit saying that they "got lucky." Either way works, though, which is why this system is great.

But we're getting off topic.

...wait, there was a topic?

There was But it has been hashed to death, so why not go random...?

There was But it has been hashed to death, so why not go random...?

But your suggestion is probably more likely

I like turtles.

I like turtles.

Of the teenage, mutant, and/or ninja variety? Or just regular turtles?

I like turtles.

Of the teenage, mutant, and/or ninja variety? Or just regular turtles?

Remember that the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles do not represent all turtles. They're just a radical Splinter group.

Firstly I must point out that although I haven't even played the basic game, I have F&D and am plowing through the rules to get my head around them. I am currently sifting through all of the Force Powers and Force Using Talents and I think somewhere FFG have lost their way with the Force and the Jedi/Sith/Other Force Users.

Having said that, I think this is THE hardest thing that FFG have to do. But its also something they HAVE to get right.

150XP is not enough to get a character to the kind of level you need to be a Jedi "Knight Level". Padawan, maybe, but knight no.

We also have to consider that the Clone Wars Animated Series turned Jedi into Superheroes (and I also think that Rebels is going the same way, but they have toned it down), and as a result, using the show as a benchmark is dangerous, but as others have eluded to - a necessary thing to make this truly amazing game great.

A suggestion I have is that for different "levels" of play, they could just "hand wave" one thing - acquisition of Force Rating. As this mechanic is the only thing that is really holding a Jedi back, just outright giving a player a higher Force Rating may solve most of the problems. What does this do for balance though compared with other EotE and AoR characters is anyone's guess, but as has been shown by some adventure Pre-Gens, different power "levels" in the game don't detract that much in game play. What FFG could do is this:

• "Padawan Level" - + 1 Force Rating
• "Knight Level" - +3 Force Rating
• "Master Level" - +5 Force Rating

What I can see happening is that FFG may actually delay the release of the book to get it right - as they have done in the past. FFG observe the quality over quantity way of thinking.

Thoughts?

GMhooly, as it was pointed out to me, artificially raising the FR has some serious balance issues beacuse it opens the way to much more powerful force powers like Bind and Unleash/protect and that sounds too op for just a 150xp build.

FR4 at 150xp is really a bit too much.

Maybe an easy fix would be to remove the cost of buying multiple specs. Or just accepet that a full fledged jedi needs to have moire xp that FFG is willing to give in the CRB.

Ghostfoman also suggested that converting dark side pips should be the normal way to fuel your powerswhenever needed so that's another way to deal with low FR.

.Or just accepet that a full fledged jedi needs to have moire xp that FFG is willing to give in the CRB.

Pretty much this.

Sam Stewart discussed what it'd take to be a full-fledged Jedi in Force and Destiny, and it ultimately came down to "a whole lot of XP."

I also think part of the problem is that some folks are still fixated on the Force Rating tree that was in the EotE Beta but (quite wisely I think) got deep-sixed in later products as it began to set what might well be an unrealistic expectation of power for players that wanted their characters to become Jedi Knights.

From my own experiences, Force Rating 2 is plenty enough that you'll have a solid chance of activating a Force power and an upgrade, maybe two if you get lucky.

The other part of the problem is that too much of the recent Star Wars media, particularly The Clone Wars, put too much focus on the "superstars" of the Jedi Order. As it's been said of professional wrestling, for every John Cena or Triple H that you see on TV, there's dozens if not hundreds of guys putting their bodies through hell for what amounts to gas money; a friend of mine used to be an amateur wrestler until he suffered a concussion from not taking the bump right. TCW sets an unrealistic expectation that if being a Jedi automatically equals "super awesome character from the start." The complaints about how Knight Level doesn't give enough XP or bonuses are upset that they can't play Episode I Obi-Wan (who at that point really was a Jedi Knight at that point in all but name) and instead are stuck playing early ANH Luke or TPM Anakin or even Ezra Bridger from Rebels. They want to be handed awesome right out the gate instead of earning it. They want to be able to pick up Parry, Reflect, and all sorts of other cool lightsaber-based talents while also boosting up Force Rating and having a slew of Force powers.

Or maybe I'm just really old-fashioned (been in the gaming hobby for more than a quarter of a century and probably longer than some folks here have been alive) and prefer that my PCs earn their cool abilities through game play rather than simply having them be handed to me on a platter. I found it incredibly satisfying that my Smuggler/Scoundrel/Emergent took the better part of a year (and GM was handing out some pretty high XP awards) before he became enough of a badass that I was comfortable referring to him as a Jedi, and Valin only had a Force Rating of 2 at that point, which enabled him to pull off a far chunk of what Luke could do in the Original Trilogy, both ESB and RotJ, and Luke was considered a Jedi Knight in all but name by the time he entered Jabba's palace at the start of RotJ.

I don't think it's unfair for a player to want to play the likes of Ashoka, or any of the minor Jedi from the Clone Wars in an RPG which is currently being supported. After all, story wise, younglings would unlikely survive Vader's Purge, and Padawans, if they survived, would be more likely a bit more powerful after 19 years. Take a look at the Jedi character in Rebels. He would have been a Padawan of 15 years of age at the Execution of Order 66, and so at least he would have had the basics - something not mirrored in F&D for starting or even "knight level" play characters. Which is the point of this discussion.

But as I (and others) have said, using these shows, although canon, is dangerous to compare with this game, but one FFG should be looking at - or at least trying to emulate to meet EVERYONE's tastes.

EotE, AoR and F&D are set some 19 years after Order 66, and so most Jedi would be dead already, turned to the dark side or crazy. The rest would be in hiding and on the run which is, to my understanding, the basic premise/setting for the game.

I've possibly gone off track here, but basically the game should be able to handle ALL genres of the Star Wars Universe, just like any game should be able to emulate a higher "level" of play without breaking the game (although this is VERY difficult if not impossible). Not every player/group are beginners after all.

I'd suggest that FFG are doong their best, but like those before them (WEG and WOTC) didn't get it right either. In a nut shell, Jedi are Superheroes, and as much as people want to play them, it might be a case of it getting the explanation of why we don't see Ironman, Thor, etc don't appears Agents of SHIELD.

Yeah, the original three movies had quite limited Force powers.

Darth Vader could move things and choke people with the force.

The Emperor had Force Lightning.

Obi Wan was all about the mind tricks.

Luke was about moving things and having visions.

Yoda was just about watching others use Force powers. He would get disgusted if he had to use them.

I don't think it's unfair for a player to want to play the likes of Ashoka, or any of the minor Jedi from the Clone Wars in an RPG which is currently being supported. After all, story wise, younglings would unlikely survive Vader's Purge, and Padawans, if they survived, would be more likely a bit more powerful after 19 years. Take a look at the Jedi character in Rebels. He would have been a Padawan of 15 years of age at the Execution of Order 66, and so at least he would have had the basics - something not mirrored in F&D for starting or even "knight level" play characters. Which is the point of this discussion.

Step 2: For Morality, we can pair the Discipline strength with Obstinateness as a weakness. Morality is 50. We'll take the +10 XP option.

Steps 3 & 4: Considering flavor, we'll go with Guardian: Soresu Defender, due to his favoring "Form III."

We'll give him Brawl, Cool, and Discipline, and then another rank of Discipline and Lightsaber. He gets two more non-career skills, which we could say are Ranged (Light) and perhaps Deception.

He's a human, so 110 XP.

Step 5 and on: XP spending: 90 for Intellect 3, Willpower 3, Agility 3. 25 XP will get us a rank of Parry, Soresu Technique, and Reflect, and we're left with 5 of his "initial" XP.

Now taking the Knight Level XP into consideration: first, since he was training under Master Billaba, we will buy into Move, Influence, and Sense for 5 XP each...I think that's a good use of the "Master" option. Then we can give him the Sense "Defense" Control Upgrade for 10 XP and Influence "Mind Trick" upgrade for another 10.

We then buy Force Sensitive Exile, and then all the way down the left side of the tree and over for +1 FR talent. Every talent on the way seems to fit really well. That's the last 120 XP.

So he's at a total of 270 XP...that should put him squarely in place for the first episode of Rebels.

Give him a basic lightsaber, a blaster pistol, some heavy clothes, and there you have it.

But as I (and others) have said, using these shows, although canon, is dangerous to compare with this game, but one FFG should be looking at - or at least trying to emulate to meet EVERYONE's tastes.

EotE, AoR and F&D are set some 19 years after Order 66, and so most Jedi would be dead already, turned to the dark side or crazy. The rest would be in hiding and on the run which is, to my understanding, the basic premise/setting for the game.

I've possibly gone off track here, but basically the game should be able to handle ALL genres of the Star Wars Universe, just like any game should be able to emulate a higher "level" of play without breaking the game (although this is VERY difficult if not impossible). Not every player/group are beginners after all.

I'd suggest that FFG are doong their best, but like those before them (WEG and WOTC) didn't get it right either. In a nut shell, Jedi are Superheroes, and as much as people want to play them, it might be a case of it getting the explanation of why we don't see Ironman, Thor, etc don't appears Agents of SHIELD.

The secondary problem is, as others have already pointed out, a possibly inflated perception of the XP budget of some of these "heroes." Just because you can stat out TCW Ahsoka with 300 XP doesn't mean you need to. Similar with TPM Obi-Wan. He can easily be made to fit a Knight Level build...just start with the thematically appropriate Ataru Striker, spend 50 to get Saber Swarm (which I think he may have used in his duel with Darth Maul), spend 100 XP in Seer to get FR 2, and then spend a smattering of his starting XP on the Move power. Nothing too far amiss about that, is there?

150 XP is plenty for many, many character concepts. And I think the nomer "Knight Level" is appropriate, flavorful, and cool.

This is why I tend to stay out of the F&D Beta arguments; insane over-expectations from some fans who want to be overpowered anime superheroes right from the start.

'+5 to starting Force Dice?' Srsly?

(where is ErikB when we need him? )

The system looks fine to me. You can do insane superhero stuff if you want - as long as you have lots and lots and lots of XP. If your GM wants a superhero campaign he can have one by starting you off at higher levels, whether that's 150 XP or 1500 XP or whatever they think is fitting.

The only thing FFG seem to have got wrong is not the system but the description of 'Knight level' setting unrealistic standards after 30+ years of overpowered Jedi fanfiction.

The only thing FFG seem to have got wrong is not the system but the description of 'Knight level' setting unrealistic standards after 30+ years of overpowered Jedi fanfiction.

You're probably right, but the problem is that we also have no reference for how powerful FFG thinks a standard jedi is, so maybe they could keep the "Knight-Level" name and explicitly say if that level is enough to play a jedi level charcter.

They could easily add a line like "this is a level of experience comparable to the junior jedi knights of the old Republic" or "the player's characters will be roughly as capable as Obi-Wan in Episode 1". If a Jedi Knight is considered in the ballpark of 300xp they could write "while this experience level puts the charcters on par with a jedi padawan (or moderatley experience Force User, to keep it vague) they still have a long way to go to be as capable as the fabled Jedi Knights of the Old Republic"

IMO this simple change would solve most of the problems related to the perceived power level of the Jedi Knights.

Do we need them to tell us how powerful a Jedi Knight is? Can't we just decide that? Why do we even need an artificial benchmark?

I'm happy with them letting us stat movie characters how we want or eliminate them entirely. They got rid of the Force Dice chart after all.

I'm not certain it's a good thing that they set some kind of artifical standard on how powerful PCs need to be before they get called 'Jedi'. There's a couple of NPCs in some of the adventures if you really need a benchmark, or the rules for Inquisitors.

And 'power' is relative anyway. You can spend 300 XP filling the Scholar tree and you'd be no better in combat for it. Force Dice, power trees, talents and equipment determine a character's power, not some arbitary character level.

Ultimately, as I said right from the start, I have not actually played the system and am learning it. I also have no idea how powerful the Force Rating actually is, and sorry if I activated "ludicrous thought". My bad.

I guess I've tuned in (and clearly made an arse-hat comment or two) because of the game my players are wanting me to run. The players have not played this system before, nor have I GMed it. I do have 12 years of GMing D6 (my favourite prior to FFGs Narrative), 3 years of GMing RCR, and 6 years of GMing Pathfinder. I've also played 2 years of SAGA.

So the issue I have is that I want to start the players as complete newbies. One of the players however wants to play a Jedi Padawan who was left behind by her master, and has spent the last few years hiding out by mixing in the Fringe Crowd. A starting character doesn't get all that much to play with in the way of Force Powers, and I guess I'm going to have to tone down the player's expectations of what these types of characters can do. I can here the words, "No super heroics here buddy". I worry that this will affect the player's enjoyment of the game.

I also didn't like the choice of the wording "Knight Level" as it makes the player expectation that little bit harder to work around.

I'm not certain it's a good thing that they set some kind of artifical standard on how powerful PCs need to be before they get called 'Jedi'. There's a couple of NPCs in some of the adventures if you really need a benchmark, or the rules for Inquisitors.

The EotE Core Book also has the Foresaken Jedi and it has 3 Force Rating so they obviously feel at least 3 Force Rating gets them into the ballpark for being a Jedi.

I'm not certain it's a good thing that they set some kind of artifical standard on how powerful PCs need to be before they get called 'Jedi'. There's a couple of NPCs in some of the adventures if you really need a benchmark, or the rules for Inquisitors.

The EotE Core Book also has the Foresaken Jedi and it has 3 Force Rating so they obviously feel at least 3 Force Rating gets them into the ballpark for being a Jedi.

Same with the Jedi-in-Hiding from the AoR corebook.

So it sounds like where FFG is concerned, Force Rating 3 is "you're an experienced Jedi Knight at this point." Enough so that it's likely they now consider Force Rating 1 to be "freshly-minted Padawan" and Force Rating 2 to run the gamut from "experienced Padawan to freshly-minted Knight."

Not having seen a character with Force Rating in play...does that sound accurate?

Do we need them to tell us how powerful a Jedi Knight is? Can't we just decide that? Why do we even need an artificial benchmark?

I'm happy with them letting us stat movie characters how we want or eliminate them entirely. They got rid of the Force Dice chart after all.

I'm not certain it's a good thing that they set some kind of artifical standard on how powerful PCs need to be before they get called 'Jedi'. There's a couple of NPCs in some of the adventures if you really need a benchmark, or the rules for Inquisitors.

And 'power' is relative anyway. You can spend 300 XP filling the Scholar tree and you'd be no better in combat for it. Force Dice, power trees, talents and equipment determine a character's power, not some arbitary character level.

I see your point Maelora, but from this thread (and others that came before) the problem is that people have wildly different expectations from a jedi in terms of power and the xp nedeed to reach that; so for some 150xp is enough while other claim you need 300xp (and or FR 3-4-5) to be a decent movie Jedi, and so we have the "Knight level ain't enough" discussion over and over.

I see no solution to this problem unless the devs give a ballpark figure of how many xp a starting knight (or a padawan) should have (or rename the Knight-level play entirely).

Mind you, XP is just figure, they shouldn't stat any movie character or even determine their class. It's just that once you know that 150xp are enough for creating a jedi (or a padwan) it's up to you to spend them how you like and getting the FR you feel you need/can achieve.

I think this would also help a lot in eradicating the extreme expectations created "after 30+ years of overpowered Jedi fanfiction".

I'm not certain it's a good thing that they set some kind of artifical standard on how powerful PCs need to be before they get called 'Jedi'. There's a couple of NPCs in some of the adventures if you really need a benchmark, or the rules for Inquisitors.

The EotE Core Book also has the Foresaken Jedi and it has 3 Force Rating so they obviously feel at least 3 Force Rating gets them into the ballpark for being a Jedi.

I used to think the same but that's probably wrong. NPC are built to different rules so that FR3 isn't necessarily an appropriate FR for a jedi, but rather the appropriate FR for challenging the players when they face that NPC (who is a nemesis and not suited to oppose starting characters anyway). In short: NPC cheat, don't rely on them for benchmarks.

For those that never got the beta rules, here is what they initially said:

FR MAGNITUDE EXAMPLE

0 No affinity Common populace

1 Sensitive Jedi Initiate

2 Tenuous A self taught exile; Padawan

3 Moderate A young Jedi Knight

4 Strong A well-trained Jedi Knight

5 Potent A veteran Jedi Knight

6 Formidable Jedi Master; Sith Lord

7 Legendary The most truly heroic Jedi or the most villainous Sith Lords