Do knights need a Force rating of 2 to represent what knights do in the prequels?

Yes, more like 3 or 4. People seem to be forgetting the Committing abilities, and these to me are the most central of Jedi capabilities. Between Enhance, Seek, and Sense there are 5 potential, and completely flavourful, more subtle, mystical type powers that fully express the "leg up" that the Force grants a practitioner. And in game terms, relatively subtle...an upgrade in several key areas.

(In a way I wish these Committing abilities had taken more of a centre stage in the rules. Not easier to get or more potent, but more important to the game play, and maybe upgradable with their own extra branches.)

Anyway, a Knight is going to be able to Commit at least a couple of these in a crisis, while reserving one or two dice for other talents or active Force use, like leaping away and bugging out...

Where do we see a lot of this in the films though? To me it always seems like if anything here's actually very little force use. Some sure, but rarely more then a few times per act.

Also, and this may be just me, but I get the feeling that mechanically converting dark pips and managing the resukt is supposed to be far more common. Not like previous systems where you were expected to ride the light and forever shun the dark.... but like I said that my just be me....

Won't argue with any of that Whafrog. For me, starting characters are too weak, and top-end characters feel like they belong in Final Fantasy rather than Star Wars.

Where do we see a lot of this in the films though? To me it always seems like if anything here's actually very little force use. Some sure, but rarely more then a few times per act.

I think that's my point. You don't see it. But they are more alert and aware than most people. Hence, to reflect this in game terms, they have dice Committed to certain powers like Sense and Seek, and sometimes Enhance. What you see is the die or dice that are remaining.

Perhaps in regards to "Knight-level" being the name for advanced characters, we need to follow Yoda's advice and "unlearn what we have learned" in regards to what a "knight" is in Star Wars. Namely, that instead of a predefined notion of power and competency, "knight" is just simply a PC who's a couple degrees better than a typical starting PC.

It may well be within the power of the esteemed commentariat assembled herein to adjust their expectations with regard to what the name entails, but the average book buyer will not have the same benefit. "Knight level"? -- their expectations can't withstand semiotics of that magnitude!

I suggest FFG put a disclaimer in their sidebar.

Where do we see a lot of this in the films though? To me it always seems like if anything here's actually very little force use. Some sure, but rarely more then a few times per act.

I think that's my point. You don't see it. But they are more alert and aware than most people. Hence, to reflect this in game terms, they have dice Committed to certain powers like Sense and Seek, and sometimes Enhance. What you see is the die or dice that are remaining.

What about the various "uncanny" talents?

Or perhaps a more passive sonar type talent/power?

I mean there's still places to go power-wise. Telepathy has barely been touched.

So the argument you put forward is they need to have more Force Talent because we don't see them use it, as they have committed them to various Force powers. I really don't want to misconstrue your argument to tear it down, I just struggle to understand it.

So the argument you put forward is they need to have more Force Talent because we don't see them use it, as they have committed them to various Force powers.

Precisely. A Jedi suspicious of an ambush or investigating a scene might commit a die to Seek. If he gets ambushed he might flip that over to Sense and commit another to Enhance. A Knight would be able to have a couple of these active, a Master would be able to have all of them active, all while still keeping something in reserve. By making these abilities dependent on FR, FFG has basically laid out what the minimums are for iconic roles.

Okay, I'm still not convinced that you need to have a FR committed to anything at all to collaboratively construct the narrative of being a Jedi knight. But say I buy into it, wouldn't it be enough to commit the one FR you start with and drop it once you want to, say, move a crate with your mind? Meaning that a FR of 1 (that you start with) would be your minimum for the iconic role, since it's all you need for the classic applications of the Force?

By making these abilities dependent on FR, FFG has basically laid out what the minimums are for iconic roles.

Whafrog, may I ask what you would consider these minimums to be, then? What 'iconic roles' equate to a given amount of Force dice? How many Specs would a 'Knight' or 'Master' need, say? 4 or 5? 7 or 8? A dozen?

(genuine question, I asked this in another thread and mostly just got troll answers from the likes of Progressions.)

I would say 2 is where a knight starts 3 force die is where a knight comes into their own. 4 probably is where a master starts.and 5 is where they come into their own. Yoda and palps probably have 6 or 7s

By making these abilities dependent on FR, FFG has basically laid out what the minimums are for iconic roles.

Whafrog, may I ask what you would consider these minimums to be, then? What 'iconic roles' equate to a given amount of Force dice? How many Specs would a 'Knight' or 'Master' need, say? 4 or 5? 7 or 8? A dozen?

(genuine question, I asked this in another thread and mostly just got troll answers from the likes of Progressions.)

I would say 2 is where a knight starts 3 force die is where a knight comes into their own. 4 probably is where a master starts.and 5 is where they come into their own. Yoda and palps probably have 6 or 7s

I agree with that. I have looked over the stats of the Jedi adversaries in the two CRB and the beta book, plus JoY, and they all have FR 3 and usually two or three Force Powers (and discipline 4 and Lightsaber 4). I know that npc are built with different rules than PC but in this case I'd say that FR 3 is considered the basic for experienced Jedi Knights (or out of practice Masters). Maybe the designers feel that normally Jedi do not bother to go above FR 3, and only the sages/seers delve that deep in the Force.

One possible issue with having the "start with oodles and oodles of extra XP" option is that you're likely to have players that routinely forget about various abilities they've purchased simply because they started with a whole stack of talents and/or Force powers as opposed to earning them.

It's much like a high-level (10th+) D&D game (any edition really), with the party spellcasters frequently having to check what their various low-level spells do while the muggles try to keep their various class abilities (or feat chains for 3e Fighters) straight. You're going to have more instances of players forgetting they could do Cool Talent X or stalling an encounter as the look up what Nifty-Sounding Talent Y does for you.

Space Marines in Deathwatch. "Wait, you mean I wouldn't have died last session because I have this talent that gives me a +10 to x?" Particularly hard as FFG insisted in spreading the starting gear and abilities over about 3 separate chapters... If you have spent your hard earned xp on something you are much more likely to remember it. With the F&D group I am running the two inexperienced roleplayers have on more than one occasion gone "Oh, can I use x ability" because they actually chose it, while if it had been in some giant list of starting stuff they would likely have forgotten about it.

I would say 2 is where a knight starts 3 force die is where a knight comes into their own. 4 probably is where a master starts.and 5 is where they come into their own. Yoda and palps probably have 6 or 7s

@Maelora: this is close, but I'd probably add +1 to these. But maybe that's because that's how I'd like to play a Jedi...with dice committed and little flash. Without the dice committing, Daeglan's ranges seem fine.

I would say go with Force Adept for the Universal name. And while I agree Discipline should be a part of the talent tree I don't think Lightsaber has to be. The reason behind this is as they have stated that most Force sensitives do not get the immersion that Jedi got for lets say the last hundred years. That is why in some ways our 'heroes' don't measure up to Jedi in the prequels. Another thing I would like to point out that while Kanan in Rebels appears to be in either his late 20's early 30's and the sense I get from the timeline is that this isn't a few years into the dark times but closer to the end of the dark times towards the beginning of the Rebellion. That means Kanan was probably at best a newly ordained Knight at best and a Padawan at best. I get the feeling it is the former not the latter just because of the fact he survived the purge and if he had been in the temple during the Order 66 as a Knight he would of been cut down by Vader or if he was in the field his chance of survival unless on his own away from the troopers when the order came in he would of died then as well.

As for levels of play I say we get tiered levels of play with the names of Associate, Lieutenant, and Master as your levels. That way you have a representation from Edge, Age, and Destiny within the system. Associate would = what Knight is now. LT would be higher more like if you were doing the adventures at a convention. And finally Master is for those homebrewed campaigns where you really want to push the levels of the system. I think financing should stay under 10,000 by the end but I haven't really examined pricing of equipment that much but I know I wouldn't want party members to be able to purchase their own individual ships. As for the xp I will leave that to you experts but I think capping it around 1000 be the best bet. The reason for this is while yes a force sensitive still getting the short end of the stick that lvl of XP puts characters in the bottom tier of at least one career class if not all the classes in that career including the ones that have more then 3 and I will be honest that just makes a hired gun frightening.

I would say go with Force Adept for the Universal name. And while I agree Discipline should be a part of the talent tree I don't think Lightsaber has to be. The reason behind this is as they have stated that most Force sensitives do not get the immersion that Jedi got for lets say the last hundred years. That is why in some ways our 'heroes' don't measure up to Jedi in the prequels. Another thing I would like to point out that while Kanan in Rebels appears to be in either his late 20's early 30's and the sense I get from the timeline is that this isn't a few years into the dark times but closer to the end of the dark times towards the beginning of the Rebellion. That means Kanan was probably at best a newly ordained Knight at best and a Padawan at best. I get the feeling it is the former not the latter just because of the fact he survived the purge and if he had been in the temple during the Order 66 as a Knight he would of been cut down by Vader or if he was in the field his chance of survival unless on his own away from the troopers when the order came in he would of died then as well.

As for levels of play I say we get tiered levels of play with the names of Associate, Lieutenant, and Master as your levels. That way you have a representation from Edge, Age, and Destiny within the system. Associate would = what Knight is now. LT would be higher more like if you were doing the adventures at a convention. And finally Master is for those homebrewed campaigns where you really want to push the levels of the system. I think financing should stay under 10,000 by the end but I haven't really examined pricing of equipment that much but I know I wouldn't want party members to be able to purchase their own individual ships. As for the xp I will leave that to you experts but I think capping it around 1000 be the best bet. The reason for this is while yes a force sensitive still getting the short end of the stick that lvl of XP puts characters in the bottom tier of at least one career class if not all the classes in that career including the ones that have more then 3 and I will be honest that just makes a hired gun frightening.

Rebels is set 5 years before A New Hope. Kanan was 14 years old at the time of Order 66 which would put him at 28 during the series. He was a Padawan when Order 66 hit and spent quite some time in hiding pretending not to be a Jedi spending his XP on blaster skill and piloting talents.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Rebels

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kanan_Jarrus

By making these abilities dependent on FR, FFG has basically laid out what the minimums are for iconic roles.

Whafrog, may I ask what you would consider these minimums to be, then? What 'iconic roles' equate to a given amount of Force dice? How many Specs would a 'Knight' or 'Master' need, say? 4 or 5? 7 or 8? A dozen?

(genuine question, I asked this in another thread and mostly just got troll answers from the likes of Progressions.)

According to the EotE book the designers of the game wrote the following:

Force Rating Examples

0 Common Populace

1 Jedi Initiate

2 Padawan, Self taught exile

3 Young Jedi Knight

4 Well trained Jedi Knight

5 Veteran Jedi Knight

6 Jedi Master, Sith Lord

7 The most truly hercic Jedi or the most villainous Sith Lords.

Yes, agreed, but they got rid of that chart after the EoE Beta and it's never resurfaced.

But it is not a bad measuring stick if you want to ascribe certain Force ratings to different levels.

By making these abilities dependent on FR, FFG has basically laid out what the minimums are for iconic roles.

Whafrog, may I ask what you would consider these minimums to be, then? What 'iconic roles' equate to a given amount of Force dice? How many Specs would a 'Knight' or 'Master' need, say? 4 or 5? 7 or 8? A dozen?

(genuine question, I asked this in another thread and mostly just got troll answers from the likes of Progressions.)

According to the EotE book the designers of the game wrote the following:

Force Rating Examples

0 Common Populace

1 Jedi Initiate

2 Padawan, Self taught exile

3 Young Jedi Knight

4 Well trained Jedi Knight

5 Veteran Jedi Knight

6 Jedi Master, Sith Lord

7 The most truly hercic Jedi or the most villainous Sith Lords.

Yeah, but that was the Beta for Edge, and hasn't been seen again since. So I'm guessing they have probably changed their minds between then and now.

The problem is a complicated one.

See on the one hand:

• Main Characters in the films don't do a whole lot of Force use, and rarely anything that requires more then one or two force points. So a high FR isn't that critical. Even "powerful" characters tend to use a more diverse set of force powers then do things that clearly require a high FR.
• The Conflict mechanic and the use of dark pips isn't really all that penalizing, especially compared to previous versions of the game. A DPoint, some strain, and a Conflict Point or two isn't really that big a deal. Unless you are playing Master House: A-hole Jedi it's a good bet that those two Con-Points are all you'll get this session. Strain is a resource you're expected to spend, and D-Points are the same...

On the other hand:

• People want a measurable way to benchmark Force power levels. FR is an easy baseline, even if it doesn't actually show what a force user can actually do.
• How often the force is used is "Certain Point of View" territory. Some see it as constant, all the time Jedi-superhero stuff. Others see it as more like a tool, occasionally used when needed.
• Force Talents don't always translate to force-use to everyone.
• A good number of people NEVER want to call on the darkside. Not even a little. And would RAGE at the thought of Obi-wan or Yoda EVER having to use a single Dark Pip, even if it didn't amount to anything at the end of the session.

Frog does make some good points about committing dice to sense and such, that does seem to happen in the films a bit. But the problem is that since FR applies across the board simply boosting FR means you'll get other balance problems in other power trees.

Master House: A-hole Jedi

I'm so doing that now. Maxing Heal and making everyone deal with the personality. Can I get a lightsaber-cane?

On the other hand:

• How often the force is used is "Certain Point of View" territory. Some see it as constant, all the time Jedi-superhero stuff. Others see it as more like a tool, occasionally used when needed.

...snip...

Frog does make some good points about committing dice to sense and such, that does seem to happen in the films a bit. But the problem is that since FR applies across the board simply boosting FR means you'll get other balance problems in other power trees.

As we discuss through this, this is the crux of it. We're definitely in "certain point of view" territory, and I'm certainly approaching it from how I would see a "real" Jedi being played...under the radar, mostly using the Force to enhance reactions etc. I'm reminded of Qui Gon's comment: "he can see things before they happen", which I never took to mean an application of "Foresee" in that context, but a Commitment of Sense, Seek, or Enhance.

And you're right about the balance issue. You can certainly do a lot with FR2 (as long as you're willing to spend Strain and the party is willing to allow the DP flip), but to me that kind of play doesn't really tap into what it means to be a Jedi...so there's a conundrum, where the style of play that requires subtlety and restraint requires higher FR in the long run than flashy displays of power. Hmm, maybe that's intentional...

• A good number of people NEVER want to call on the darkside. Not even a little. And would RAGE at the thought of Obi-wan or Yoda EVER having to use a single Dark Pip, even if it didn't amount to anything at the end of the session.

Totaly agree as i had the same mindset about calling on the dark side to fuel force powers, but now i'm seeing that as more acceptable since it does not give too much comflict . The Dpoint flip is srill an issue for me as they are limited, impact the party action and have immeidate consequences of giving more wepons to the GM. Maybe it's all intentional to force you to do it only when truly necessary and not every time yo uwant to use a Force power.

As for Obi-Wan never using dark side pips i think itì's fairly obvious he does in the last part of the duel with Darth Maul. For Yoda i wouldn't be sure, as i assume he has a high enough FR that he rarely has any need to do that, but i can accept the he is doing that when he blocks the fuel tank from crashing on Obi-Wan in AoTc and blocks the senate podium in the fight with Sidious he is using dark side pips (in both case he is shown being strained and fatigued while doing that).

And you're right about the balance issue. You can certainly do a lot with FR2 (as long as you're willing to spend Strain and the party is willing to allow the DP flip), but to me that kind of play doesn't really tap into what it means to be a Jedi...so there's a conundrum, where the style of play that requires subtlety and restraint requires higher FR in the long run than flashy displays of power. Hmm, maybe that's intentional...

Totally agree, it seems that the more experienced a Jedi becomes the less he uses of the Force overtly, except when in need. I think the designers are trying to subtly tell us their view of how the Jedi behave, but i hope that in the core rulebook they'll ad enough fluff to spell it out more openly and solve, at least partially, the conundrum.

I would say 2 is where a knight starts 3 force die is where a knight comes into their own. 4 probably is where a master starts.and 5 is where they come into their own. Yoda and palps probably have 6 or 7s

That sounds pretty reasonable.

Now, as an experiment, let's create a well-rounded candidate for Knight who's been preparing for a wide variety of tests that might await him in his Trials (or somebody who just passed them) - and we're using just the 150 bonus xp. I'm not going to touch the starting xp at all.

Let's say I pick the Protector as my starting Spec. 150xp buys me all the talents leading to Force Rating +1 (75xp), spec into Soresu Defender (20xp), pick up Parry (5xp), get Lightsaber 1 (5xp), as well as the Force powers Enhance with Control: Force Leap (20xp), Move with Range (15xp), and Sense (10xp).

(Since we're talking "knights", i.e. a time where the Order still existed, you probably can use discounts from a Mentor as well.)

I think that allows you to do pretty much everthing I'd expect from a young knight still wet behind his ears. Now that you're a Jedi Knight, your true training, begun it has...

GranSolo, nice build but i think that newly minted knight would have taken the Soresu Technique talent too, and with the discount on the Force powers he can buy a control upgrade for Sense. Also i'd use the starting xp to raise four stats to 3 each (assumning a human knight): Intelligence, Willpower, Brawn, Agility.

The problem i see is that some spec , like Shadow or peacekeepr are extremly costly to get to the FR and so the build is not balanced at all: it requires additona xp from the advetures to be well rounded like the one you made.

As we discuss through this, this is the crux of it. We're definitely in "certain point of view" territory, and I'm certainly approaching it from how I would see a "real" Jedi being played...under the radar, mostly using the Force to enhance reactions etc. I'm reminded of Qui Gon's comment: "he can see things before they happen", which I never took to mean an application of "Foresee" in that context, but a Commitment of Sense, Seek, or Enhance.

Yeah, that's always gonna be the pain. When are we seeing a force-user just doing something and succeeding, when are they using a d-point, when are we seeing them use a talent like uncanny anything, or intuitive evasion, and when are we seeing an actual force power being used?

It's a tough nut because everyone sees it differently. One that always sticks in my mind is Obi-wan and Luke after the sandpeople ambush. Is that just a medical check? Or the heal power? Or did Luke just get strained out?

You can certainly do a lot with FR2 (as long as you're willing to spend Strain and the party is willing to allow the DP flip), but to me that kind of play doesn't really tap into what it means to be a Jedi...so there's a conundrum, where the style of play that requires subtlety and restraint requires higher FR in the long run than flashy displays of power. Hmm, maybe that's intentional...

I'm fairly certain of that. It just works out too well. When you run the numbers and compare to the films (at least all the times we can be 100% sure the force is being used) you only end up with a max around a half-dozen uses/act, usually less. So assuming each Act represents a session of play unless you just roll carp, you're only looking at 3 or 4 conflict points. Not all that scary really...

By comparison to table 9-3, your behavior can rack up Conflict points far faster then the occasional Dark pip flip. To me that says a "light sider" isn't supposed to be NEVER flipping pips, just doing a better job of choosing his battles so to speak.

Maybe we need to push a challenge on the community? Sort of a Dogme 95 of Star Wars roleplaying?

1. Every major encounter should see the expenditure of at least 3 destiny points. It may be by either side of the table but the total expenditure must be 3 or more. A d-point spent to attempt to directly counteract another d-point negates both point expenditures when calculating the total.
2. "Light Side" Force using Player Characters must always do what is needed to activate a force power they commit to performing, even if this means calling on the darkside. Conflict should be tracked as normal. "Committing" shall be defined as announcing the power use attempt and rolling the dice. Once the dice have been rolled, you're committed, and must execute to the best of your abilities. If you can't generate enough pips to execute the intended action, you must instead perform an alternate action using the same power and die results. EDIT: If there are not enough pips to manifest a power and no light side Dpoints are available, the power fails normally. If this occurs more then once in a single session the GM may apply a single automatic despair result to any player made check the round the power failed to activate or the following round. If flipping a pip will cost strain sufficient to exceed the players threshold, the power manifests, but upon completion of the action the player suffers the strain and all the normal effects of having his/her/its strain threshold exceeded.
3. If either side finds itself in possession of all the Dpoints, every effort should be made to expend at least one Dpoint at the earliest appropriate opportunity.