@RichSabre

I always thought of the Giants as a more primal or beast like species that fall in with all the various animals in middle earth. They may not necessarily have a fëa (soul) or at least not one that goes anywhere and simply dies with their hröa. Therefore they aren't all that important in the grand scheme of things and are just another creature, albiet a very humanoid one and probably one far cleverer than simple animals and most probably with sentience of some sort. Perhaps they are some sort of original experiment or project by Eru before he created his children, maybe he was just experimenting with appearance, size and nature and made the Giants but without fëa. He may have then left them in this primal state and decided that elves and men should be far smaller in stature but of a similar form. As far as Sauron using them perhaps they were too high in the mountains and too volatile for it to be worthwhile . I'm sure he could have brought them under his control if he tried hard enough/used enough forces to do so but the Giants may have taken out many orcs in the process so it might have just not been worth it especially when he already had armored Olog-Hai. Just my two cents

As far as the origin of the Orcs I'm not sure why their longevity was one of Tolkiens main concerns if they were indeed created from Tortured/Corrupted Elves as the loss of immortality could easily be explained as a side effect of being so cruelly and fully misshapen and tortured. Morgoth was able to infuse middle earth ITSELF and its various elements (gold, silver, water etc etc etc) with his own essence meaning that every being and place had the potential for corruption or greed. He is almost like corruption incarnate really so I can see him infusing the tortured and twisted elves with parts of his own being and essence which would surely effect and remove their gift of immortality and seems to have also been so full on that they were considered from that point on a different species.

Merely disfiguring and torturing the elves into looking like the orcs do and breaking them mentally would not result in their offspring being the same either so obviously Morgoths essense or will being infused into them must have been what twisted them into a new race. So he hasn't created life but has rather corrupted an existing group of beings into a new type of being.

Holy cuss, I had a long and brilliant response typed up when a link got accidentally clicked.

In short: could Giants have been ('internally', that is in the context of the story within the fictional narrative) an invention of Bilbo wanting to spice up his memoirs?

And, Elrond could easily have claimed kingship over the remaining High Elves had he wanted to, even if his heritage was not as closely linked to the original Nolodorin lords of the First Age, simply because (1) he was so wise and revered and (2) his father was Eärendil.

If I get bold enough I'll post again with a fuller explanation

Holy cuss, I had a In short: could Giants have been ('internally', that is in the context of the story within the fictional narrative) an invention of Bilbo wanting to spice up his memoirs?

This is my own headcanon as to why The Hobbit is written so differently from The Lord of the Rings and for some of the discrepancies (why the Elves act so differently, the appearance of giants, etc.), all these differences reflect Bilbo's style as a storyteller and some of his poetic license.

That's a pretty cool way of looking at it and interesting theory. I'm sure he definitely would have added small bits and pieces to his story to make it sound grander!

In early (and maybe even some printed) chronicles, yes, but Tolkien revisited these passages because he found a problem: he eventually settled on the fact that no one apart from Eru is capable of creating life, and Morgoth's ability to "corrupt" orcs means he can create a new race.

I thought this was exactly why Tolkien wrote orcs as having been corrupted elves in the first place -- certainly Morgoth could not create life, so he took existing life and corrupted it instead.

In early (and maybe even some printed) chronicles, yes, but Tolkien revisited these passages because he found a problem: he eventually settled on the fact that no one apart from Eru is capable of creating life, and Morgoth's ability to "corrupt" orcs means he can create a new race. And he wasn't supposed to be able to create life. This was a problem. Tolkien was also concerned with orcs' longevity - if they were indeed descended from elves, they'd probably be immortal and he didn't want that. This is muddled, but he seems eventually to have settled on the orcs not being related to elves - he just doesn't give an alternative explanation.

The Vala, Aulë is attributed for creating the dwarves out of "impatience" to wait for the elves to awaken.

Eru eventually allowed them to be part of the world but because of the manner of their creation their animosity with the elves is an integral part of their being.

Good point Nerdmeister, didn't think of that at all. So much for only Eru being able to create life!

It is hardly the creation of life if he takes something that is already alive and deforms it? What i said before is taken pretty much directly from the Silmarillion. Here is the quote:

Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken , were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs.

I thought this was exactly why Tolkien wrote orcs as having been corrupted elves in the first place -- certainly Morgoth could not create life, so he took existing life and corrupted it instead.

The Vala, Aulë is attributed for creating the dwarves out of "impatience" to wait for the elves to awaken.

Eru eventually allowed them to be part of the world but because of the manner of their creation their animosity with the elves is an integral part of their being.

I know it's in the Silmarillion, but the Silmarillion is outdated.

Tolkien's own words in Text VIII of Myths Transformed in History of Middle-Earth volume X: Morgoth's Ring:

Orcs

Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system.

(1) As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.

(2) ? Therefore they must be corruptions of something pre-existing.

(3) But Men had not yet appeared, when the Orcs had already existed. Aule constructed the Dwarves out of his memory of the Music; but Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor so as to allow the independence of the Orcs. (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and 'saved'?)

It also seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to comtemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable.

In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor.

Emphasis mine.

This is a question of what you consider canon and not. Surely the Silmarillion should be considered canon, but so should the History of Middle-Earth, and that was published much later and had new ideas that Tolkien had not fully worked out when he wrote the early legends. When these two contradict each other, what are we to believe? I guess we could each decide for ourselves. It seems that Tolkien eventually did not intend for orcs to be related to elves, but died before he could make a final ruling on it.

And thus we have the earliest known "retcon." Well, those writings are very theoretical, so as you say it is a question or what you consider canon. The passage you cite is hardly "history," but rather a "notes scrawled in the margin" type of finding, in the process of arriving at a place that Tolkien unfortunately never arrived.

I would say it's too bold to say that Tolkien "scrapped" that idea of Orcs being bred from Elves. He was clearly not satisfied with that, but in the end left us with only one account of their origin in prose that was intended for other people's eyes.

And thus we have the earliest known "retcon." Well, those writings are very theoretical, so as you say it is a question or what you consider canon. The passage you cite is hardly "history," but rather a "notes scrawled in the margin" type of finding, in the process of arriving at a place that Tolkien unfortunately never arrived.

I would say it's too bold to say that Tolkien "scrapped" that idea of Orcs being bred from Elves. He was clearly not satisfied with that, but in the end left us with only one account of their origin in prose that was intended for other people's eyes.

Agreed. Given what text we have between our hands - this is the only logical conclusion. Perhaps if Tolkien had lived longer and had more time to work on this we would have seen something different. Sadly it was not so, yet we have the Silmarillion in the state that Tolkien himself left behind and i can't think of a better/more trusted resource for the history of the old world of Tolkiens mythos.

The quote you provide from the Silmarillion doesn't actually say "this is what happened", just what the Elves assumed. It seems also to be what Tolkien believed at the time. The reason the Silmarillion exists is that Christopher Tolkien wanted to try and make his father's notes into a coherent whole, which it never was. Few drafts were what could be viewed as complete. The History of Middle-Earth has other drafts and ideas, which I consider just as canon (and, if they are newer, perhaps even more).

Since Tolkien viewed the whole enterprise as himself "discovering" Middle-earth and not creating it, perhaps it is best if we take the same view and lay aside the notion that "canon" and "truth" are synonyms. Nobody knows where orcs come from. The elves believe the orcs are descended from corrupted elves. Beyond that, all we can do is speculate.

Holy cuss, I had a long and brilliant response typed up when a link got accidentally clicked.

In short: could Giants have been ('internally', that is in the context of the story within the fictional narrative) an invention of Bilbo wanting to spice up his memoirs?

And, Elrond could easily have claimed kingship over the remaining High Elves had he wanted to, even if his heritage was not as closely linked to the original Nolodorin lords of the First Age, simply because (1) he was so wise and revered and (2) his father was Eärendil.

If I get bold enough I'll post again with a fuller explanation

I certainly don't hope that's true. (not that there is a truth) For I am an ornithologist and very interested in ME animals & plants (fauna and flora), so the more creatures the marrier. And if it were his memoirs, why would he tell about the Ring then? I don't quite remember it anymore, but did Gandalf force him to put it in or did he so himself? Because if I am correct Frodo and Gandalf talked about this subject in the Lord. Bilbo didn't want to tell the rest about the Ring, but Gandalf suspected. Afterwards Bilbo told the truth, but was still ashamed for not telling back then. Now my memories fail and did Bilbo put it in his memoirs because of that or not?

Also my new question: Are the Silvan Elves or rather Thranduil and the Mirkwood Elves setting sail for the other side too or do they remain? For Thranduil had not a Ring of Pwe so his realm did not fall/fail and could grow now Sauron and his evil was removed. Dol Goldir could have been cleansed and rebuild, the Old Forest Road reused. Yet I did not read anything about either their passing or staying. But there are some lines that suggest all Elves left, including Thran and co. Especially the part of Arwen going to Lorien after Aragorn's passing seems to suggest such, but only for Galadriel and Celeborn.''Galadriel had past away and also Celeborn was gone, the land was empty.' I always find it a great pity that the Elves left and everything they built to perish into decay and abandonisation.

Holy cuss, I had a long and brilliant response typed up when a link got accidentally clicked.

In short: could Giants have been ('internally', that is in the context of the story within the fictional narrative) an invention of Bilbo wanting to spice up his memoirs?

And, Elrond could easily have claimed kingship over the remaining High Elves had he wanted to, even if his heritage was not as closely linked to the original Nolodorin lords of the First Age, simply because (1) he was so wise and revered and (2) his father was Eärendil.

If I get bold enough I'll post again with a fuller explanation

I certainly don't hope that's true. (not that there is a truth) For I am an ornithologist and very interested in ME animals & plants (fauna and flora), so the more creatures the marrier. And if it were his memoirs, why would he tell about the Ring then? I don't quite remember it anymore, but did Gandalf force him to put it in or did he so himself? Because if I am correct Frodo and Gandalf talked about this subject in the Lord. Bilbo didn't want to tell the rest about the Ring, but Gandalf suspected. Afterwards Bilbo told the truth, but was still ashamed for not telling back then. Now my memories fail and did Bilbo put it in his memoirs because of that or not?

The in-universe explanation for the difference in the stories is that Bilbo told the fake story in his memoirs. In fact, he never changed the story himself, but it was said that either Frodo or Sam changed this to reflect the true story later on.

Also my new question: Are the Silvan Elves or rather Thranduil and the Mirkwood Elves setting sail for the other side too or do they remain?

I'm not sure I'm clear on the question. Are you asking if Thranduil sailed West? That remains unclear. The Call, if you will, remained/remains open to all of the Eldar for as long as the world lasts. Some (mostly those dark elves that did not heed the original call of the Valar, but also some Silvan/Noldor) refused the call even through physical death.

This whole issue came up with the heated Shadow of Mordor discussions and I was directed to a passage in the Histories in which Tolkien describes the Elves in spirit form and how they could resist the Call of Mandos, lusting to remain in Middle-earth. These often fell under the 'counter-summons' of Morgoth and later Sauron and their spirits were used for evil.

All that's to say that, even though the Elves were bound to Middle-earth, each could make a choice to return to the Blessed Realm. I have no idea if Thranduil did or not, but any Elves that remained 'devolved' into the faerie spirits that became the subject of much of our own folklore

And, yes, it is very sad when the Elves go.

Dark elves? In Middle-Earth?

Dark Elves are defined as those whose tribes have not been to see the light of Valinor

A question for the lore masters: What's that thing from the Nin-in-Eliph? Ancient Marsh Dweller.

wow, i leave for a couple of days (studies...why must you get in my Tolkien-y way? ) and i miss these excellent debates, thanks everyone for taking part

as for the question of the marsh dweller.. its looks like an ffg creation based on the watcher in the water

ok, here is a major one for you all

...Rhun....

yes, that is all ..

no, i mean, what was there? who lived there? who controlled there? what do we know of it? and why did aragorn visit there but gandalf never did?

Yes, shipwreck, I was indeed asking if Thranduil sailed to the West. I was wondering, because after the Hobbit, he doesn't really get any attention. (It may be in the UT, but I have yet to read that (very quickly!)) Also I was wondering because I hoped he didn't so that there would be some Elves left in ME and his kingdom wouldn't be left to rot in Angband too, because Thranduil did not posses a Ring of Power, which would mean his realm wasn't dependend on its powe, so therefore non in it would then suddenly 'fall'.

As for Elrond becoming High King, I don't think he would have wanted such a title for himself. I see Elrond more in the way of a puppiteer (hope it is translated well), the one in the back pulling some ropes. Ropes in the form of guided advice. And what I meant with my earlier post, the High King of the Noldor wouldn't rule over Lorien or Mirkwood, so why should he even take such a title? All other Elves west of the Misty Mountains are already under his control.

Rich, I was about to post a similair question.

But I know some things about Rhûn. It has never been visited by Gandalf indeed and Aragorn once, but also Saruman and the two Blue Wizards travelled there. As we know, the Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando) stayed. My guess is that Gandalf just didn't have any business there and rather trusted Alatar and Pallando to solve matters there. Aragorn has probably travelled there to learn his 'enemy'. What are their principals and manners of living? He had to become a wise ruler and strength in war is found in knowing your enemy (scrying ), and also learning to respect other people for the choices they (have to/forced to) make.

Rhûn is supposedly somewhat like Mongolia, but we actually don't know. There is a Sea in the middle of Rhûn, the Sea of Rhûn, so probably the climate around that area wasn't so bad. They have fought against Gondor mostly on horses (Wainraider) what also shows a connection to Atilla the Hun from Mongolia and rather not as the film depictes as mostly spearman.

Rhûn is inhabitated by Dwarfs, Men and Elves. All live originates from Rhûn; In the far east of Rhûn is where the first Elves and Men woke up. Two groups of 'lost' Elves remained there, the ones we call Dark Elves and they resisted or rather ignored the Call (see above in other post for explanation). Also in the mountains that lie in the far east, 4 of the 7 Dwarf clans live there. That almost everything we know about those Dwarves. But the main group of inhabitants are Men, also know as Easterlings.

It is suggested to be ruled by several kings, who were head of a tribe, so no unification, only if one king could rise up and claim command. Somewhat like in old Mongolia. The Easterlings have fought many wars with the West, under the service of Sauron and under themselfs. During the Wainraider invasion, they were united under 1 banner by a strong leader and so could assemble a force to almost conquer Gondor. (Eorl saved them luckily) In the Thirth Age, many of the several tribeleaders swore oaths to Sauron and their main army attacked Erebor and Dale In the Fourth Age Aragorn and his son subdued them in their wars against them, and probably made peace after several victories, when they had shown the new strenght of Gondor and Rohan.

We know not much about them. Not even what language they spoke..

"That moment when you wished your favorite author only died after he finished his work"

great answer! thanks... and i agree... if only Tolkien were alive to answer these riddles and unknowns...

"Rhun is somewhat like Mongolia" Hmmm, dodgy assumption right there... Tolkien did base the ORCS on the "less liked Mongolian types" to go against the European westerners. We do know that in Rhun there lived Southrons or Easterlings (don't remember) and certainly different media and games (especially MERP and MECCG) depicted these peoples as slightly west Asians and Arabic.

Rhûn was mostly inhabitated by Easterlings (Southrons live in Harad, Harad also meaning South) and I did not say the people looked Asain or whatever, I was referring to the livestyle in old Mongolia in the age of the Roman Empire.

If memory serves that is where the wainriders come from, so I can see the Mongolian connexion (movie name, called it). I've also heard them compared to ancient Scythians.

GandalfDK hit all the bases, and I think I like that the East is so ambiguous. Besides possibilities of culture and debates over what they looked like, it gives credence to what Sam thinks in Two Towers (bequeathed to Faramir in the movies) -- was the Southron really evil at heart? We don't know how bad it was over there and why the evil men did what they did.