Thought this would be a cool thread idea... Tolkien lore question and answer ... this isnt me answering lore questions (my knowledge or arrogance doesnt run so deep ) but for the whole forum... if you wonder something on LOTR or related material, ask, and the forum shall answer (hopefully )

Giants... what exactly were they? i mean, we have trolls which are corruptions of ents, orcs are corruption of elves, wargs i assume (?) are corruptions of wolves... but giants are only mentioned once and in the hobbit..and as far as i know tolkien never returns to them, or their alliegance in LOTR..we only know they at least help him periodically block up goblin cave entrances

so perhaps, if they arent of 'evil' then they are creatures in their own right... but i dont remember a reference to them in the creation of creatures in silmarillion.

any ideas?

Richard

Well, at least they exist so they can be used as encounter cards. Or maybe even player cards (never gonna happen ofc)

well... giant player cards would be pretty cool... they could 1 shot cave trolls

Great idea!

In my opinion at least PJ depicted them as they are not. I don't think they are actually made of stone, but rather the word Stone-giants means that they live high up in the mountain, like Cave Troll, which are also not made of caves. But I guess they are just some mindfling of Tolkien that he thought was nice to put in at the moment he wrote it, but propably forgot about it later on. (as with many things) I see them more as Ents, "We are on nobody their sides", creatures who have no alliances with anybody, save for maybe the Eagles. Instead of the Ents, these Giants don't get roused, so probably only killed some annoying Goblins in the mountains.

great thoughts i tend to agree (which echoes my thoughts on your post about skin changers ..which actually gave me the idea for this thread)

it does make me wonder on that note, why sauron ignored such a valuable assest he could have used (it appears to me at least they werent sophisticated and could have been brought under his control easy enough in time)

I think it's always important to remember that The Hobbit when it was written originally wasn't intended to be part of Tolkien's broader legendarium. So he probably included giants in The Hobbit because they fit the "fairy tale" quality of that particular story, but didn't necessarily have a part for them in the broader history of Middle-earth. Of course, Tolkien did like to reconcile certain discrepancies in his work, so it's surprising that he never touched on giants more at some later point. Of course, I haven't read every last piece of Tolkien (the histories of Middle-earth are still waiting for me), so it's possible that the answer lies in there somewhere, but I haven't heard of it.

Since this is the place to ask a question, I guess I'll ask, How much foresight do you think Gandalf had? There are plenty of examples of him making decisions and believing in people when no one else would, and he always seemed to turn out right. Taking a bet on one little Hobbit named Bilbo dramatically changed the course of events, as without Bilbo, the Dwarves would likely have been eaten by Spiders, ended up locked up forever in Thranduil's halls, etc., and the dragon would still have been alive during the War of the Ring. Another example is him insisting on Merry and Pippin's presence in the Fellowship, which seemed absurd at the time, but they went on to play key roles in victory.

So did Gandalf just really believe in people, especially the smallest and humble of peoples like Hobbits, and he was able to inspire them to the greatest heights? Or, due to his Maia nature, did he have foreknowledge of the future?

This isn't necessarily a question that can be answered, I realize, but perhaps is more of a philosophical destiny vs. free will type question.

I hope the answer not be about the Maia nature and knowledges about future. It would become boring...

Hmmm good question Raven1015..

I tend to answer the question with another 'Why would an Istari/Maia not have foresight?'. He is not of Mankind, and although magic has no role as 'magic' in ME, he has powers, great powers.

But, if I would try to answer, I think not really. IMO he just does what hr thinks is right and as he says about Bilbo 'he gives me courage'. Gandalf took strenght out of the small, simple deeds, so perhaps he was inspired by Merry and Pippins love and friendship with Frodo and saw a strong bond between them, so he insisted on them joining.

On the other hand, he seems to know a lot of things already before they are reported to him. Frodo not being dead, Denethor mad. And with things of the Hobbit all the same..

Or maybe it was the Pipeweed.

When the three hunters meet Gandalf in Fangorn, we get his perspective on a few things. When he learns that Sam accompanied Frodo, he says, "It is news to me, yet it does not surprise me. Good! Very good! You lighten my heart." When he hears of Boromir's death, he answered, "Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. ...But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake."

He then speaks of their peril: " 'War is upon us and all our friends, a war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory.' ... He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. 'No,' he said in a soft voice, 'it has gone beyond our reach. Of that at least let us be glad. We can no longer be tempted to use the Ring."

Finally he speaks to Aragorn's seemingly useless choice to attempt rescuing Merry and Pippin: "You chose amid doubts the path that seemed right: the choice was just, and it has been rewarded. For so we have met in time, who otherwise might have met too late."

It seems clear that Gandalf sees more than others, yet much remains hidden to him. He has a sense of what is right in different circumstances, and for the rest he trusts to fate, like he tells Bilbo at the end of the Hobbit: "Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!"

This fits with Tolkien's idea of eucatastrophe. Gandalf seems helpless in the Battle of the Five Armies, ready for a last blast of magic, and then the Eagles come. I don't think he has clear foresight, but he's open to allowing fate to work, rather than trying to account for everything in the designs of the wise.

Great answer, Estel Edain! That pretty much aligns with my own thinking: he has some measure of foresight, but not total knowledge (and I agree with you too, Mndela, that if total knowledge were the case, it would be boring!). I like how this contrasts with Saruman. Saruman did not have faith in others, and so he sought total knowledge and total foreknowledge, even at the cost of dabbling in the arts of the Enemy. Gandalf, by contrast, seems to hold onto hope and be willing to leave some matters up to destiny and higher powers, making decisions based on his own wisdom and intuition rather than using something like the Palantir. At times, this makes it seem like he succeeded mostly on luck, but as referenced in that passage you quoted from the end of the Hobbit, it's more about faith in others and the ultimate triumph of good.

In the Book of Lost tales there are mentions on Giants, even names for them. Have read it only once and not own it so I don't remember much more. I also remember that there is a mention that Giants where created by Melcor. If any one has the book he might take a look

thanks Nickpes, i dont have that book (yet) but ill look that one up

great answers on the gandalf foresight topic... as for my own thoughts, well i guess the short answer is i tend to agree with the idea he had at least some foresight into the happenings of middle earth

one thing always gets me though... what on earth was he intending to do when he got to mordor? this isnt ever touched upon and ive discussed this here before in one of my (long forgotten ) articles....when you total up the options (through the gate is unlikely, through cirith ungol even less likely, all the way around the mountain chains would have meant the war had ended) then im not sure what his plan was

my only thought is gandalf had seen some sort of foresight, of frodo inside mordor, and knew that somehow he got in there, but he did not know what.

A couple of quotes that give to think about:

“It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not.”

“For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”

These two quotes suggested at least that Gandalf had some kind of foresight, but that he ´could not see all ends´, so it wasn´t any great power I think.

And again a hint of foresight:

“You take after Bilbo,' said Gandalf. 'There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago.' Frodo wondered if the remark meant more than it said.”

Especially about the Bilbo question:

"I'm looking for someone to share in an adventure, and it's very difficult to find anyone.'
'I should think so, in these parts. We're plain, quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty, disturbing, uncomfortable things, they make you late for dinner.”

It has not so much to do with foresight, but 1. this could be a diversive tactic to lure Bilbo into the quest or 2. the 'very difficult' was true and Gandalf choose Bilbo rather by change than foresight.

About Gandalf's Folly:

“Still that must be expected,' said Gandalf to himself. 'He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.”

As I read it here, Elrond had more foreseeiing powers than Gandalf, but 'not even' would suggest that Gandalf had some himself.

GandalfDK, when you finally get your hands on Unfinished Tales, you're going to love it, if only for the chapter called The Quest of Erebor, in which Gandalf explains to the members of the Fellowship of the Ring after the War of the Ring how and why he came to push Thorin to take Bilbo on his expedition to reclaim the Lonely Mountain. Unfinished Tales contains excerpts from different drafts of the story.

Gandalf admits to having some sort of "foresight," that he "feels it deep in his heart," that the quest will only succeed if Thorin takes Bilbo along… and this is based on Gandalf remembering having met Bilbo when he was a child, and on rumours he had heard about him while travelling through the Shire (at a time when Bilbo was away, "off again"), which made him sound promising to Gandalf. So he had not seen "adult Bilbo" yet when he insisted that Thorin take Bilbo with him (the Dwarves should take a Hobbit along, he argued, for Smaug would not recognize the scent of a Hobbit, whereas he would that of a Dwarf or other known enemies… and Gandalf supported the Dwarves' quest to reclaim Erebor and slay Smaug, for he feared that Sauron could make an ally of the dragon).

In another draft, Gandalf answers questions about why he chose Bilbo for the quest to Erebor:

So in the above excerpt, we see that Gandalf is a psychologist relying heavily on intuition, rather than definite foresight … as confirmed by the following excerpt:

With regards to the "mistake" that "nearly proved disastrous," Gandalf says:

Another relevant excerpt/explanation from Gandalf with regards to foresight/fate:

In the essay on The Istari in Unfinished Tales, J.R.R. Tolkien writes:

Christopher Tolkien remarks in the essay on The Istari:

All of the above suggests to me that as a result of his ancient roots and connection with one of the Valar, Gandalf might have some insights into possible/likely futures. His limited ability to foretell future events also would have been a combination of intuition and deduction derived over a millennia of observing mortal/Elvish behaviour in Middle Earth (though as indicated in the second last spoiler, as an Istar, he had to "learn much anew by slow experience"). Aside from that, Gandalf does seem to believe in Fate (the inevitable outcome of the music of the Valar that created the world in the Silmarillion?) or discrete divine intervention leading things in a certain direction, though that fate can be altered through the (unanticipated) actions of mortals and immortals alike ('for even the very wise cannot see all ends').

All this of course being a long-winded answer that essentially supports what Estel Edain and Gandalf DK have already suggested in prior posts…

As I waited for the Gandalf debate late replies, which I judge have now had the ttime to come, I would like to ask some other questions.

I was just reading the Apendices A- About the Dwarves and I always wonder about a couple of things:

1. Will the Dwarves go extinct in Middle-Earth in the Fourth Age?

2. Is there more writing about Gimli setting sail to the Undying Lands then that last note?

3. What was Dol Goldur before Sauron took refuge there?

4. What... Okay let's stick with the Dwarves-theme, how much did Moria occupy/take in area of the Misty Mountains?

5. Are there any tales about how Dwarves get children?

On Giants, they were a nature creature in tolkiens world. the stone giants throw stones back and forth in the hobbit and many think that other giants tolkien mentioned where actually ents, or even huorns.

“Bilbo… saw that across the valley the stone-giants were out, and where hurling rocks at one another for a game, and catching them, and tossing them down into the darkness where they smashed among the trees far below, or splintered into little bits with a bang…they could hear the giants guffawing and shouting all over the mountainside.”

As much as I love Peter Jackson, I gotta say he didn't understand the background behind tolkien's works as we see often happens. But the designers for LOTR LCG saga expansion OHaUH hit the nail on the head. it was a cool idea to but the stone giants in even though it isn't quite thematic for them to be enemies. And I love the encounter card "guffawing giants" SO thematic. Just got to love the "over misty mountains grim" quest. The more I read tolkien the more I realize how incredible he was and what an incredible job the lotr lcg designers did transforming his masterpieces into an amazing game!

Ok enough about giants!

gandalfDK: your qs!

1) The Dwarves of Durin's Folk prospered in Erebor , and there are indications Gimli led a group of dwarves to Aglarond .

Mining expeditions were sent to Khazad-dûm where mithril was again mined, used to restore the gates of Minas Tirith , but Khazad-dûm was not immediately recolonized. There are, however, indications that a Durin the Last later did rebuild this Dwarven Kingdom, returning Durin's Folk to their ancestral homes.

Apparently the Dwarven race began to dwindle by the end of the Fourth Age, for their women made up less than a third of their population. Often, the women would not desire to marry, or want a husband that they couldn't have. Similarly, many Dwarven men were too engrossed in their crafts and did not have the time to take a wife and have children. Their ultimate fate is unclear.

2) don't think so. We don't even know whether he was excepted or not.

3) it was originally built by Oropher, Thranduil's father. it was called: Amon Hinc, or the barren hill. The elves abandoned it because they would rather go northward.

4) dono

5) dono either

4. What... Okay let's stick with the Dwarves-theme, how much did Moria occupy/take in area of the Misty Mountains?

gandalf says, and i believe im right in remembering, it is a 40 mile trek as the crow flies through moria...so thats is its width across the mountains... there is a detailed atlas by Fonstad which gives very indepth info on these things though unfortunatly i dont have a copy...

though i can imagine that given all the intertwining tunnels, various levels, habitable and mining areas.... it could stretch at least twice as far as that in north/south length, though im just guessing here

Richsabre is correct. I recently received a copy of the atlas, and it also says that Gandalf calculated it was at least "forty miles from the West-door to the East-gate in a direct line." The shallow valley in which the West-door was located was about three eights of a mile between the falls (Stair Falls) and the gate, and possibly two miles from end to end. The guardroom is shown to be around 3900 feet deep, and Fonstad judges that the "mines could have been as deep as 12,500 feet and still have been within the limits reached in our Primary World."

The maps and text in the atlas explicitly reference various Tolkien sources. I highly recommend getting a copy of the atlas, it's a wonderful addition that enhances my reading enjoyment of all of Tolkiens's writings on Middle-Earth: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Atlas_of_Middle-earth.

As a point of reference, the Misty Mountains (including the Mountains of Angmar) are 702 miles in length.

GandalfDK, I also find this compilation to be a handy reference work (though not necessarily 100% complete/correct, but close) if you're looking for quick answers on some subjects without flipping through your various Tolkien primary sources: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1120372.The_Complete_Tolkien_Companion.

On a totally unrelated subject… Rich, I just checked the portfolio in your signature links… Beautiful and inspiring work!!! I've been thinking a lot these days about pursuing photography more seriously, and your pics are a real inspiration.

Sorry for the thread derailment, everyone… back to our regular program!

Great topic idea, Rich! I love Tolkien's lore.

Can I point out that orcs descending from corrupted elves is an idea Tolkien eventually scrapped? He never quite seemed to settle on the origins of orcs, but decided they were their own race and reproduced as other mortal races did, and that they were not of elvish origin.

I've been thinking about the lineage of the Noldor in the Third Age. Does anyone know whether Elrond could've claimed the title of High King of the Noldor after the fall of Gil-Galad? I'm just rereading the FotR and trying to get through the Council of Elrond, where Boromir (?) says something like the power of the lord of Imladris lies not in arms but in wise counsel. He obviously does not savour battle, but he seems to have been Gil-Galad's second-in-command in The Last Alliance. Maybe he didn't want to become king, but could he have made a case for himself if he wanted to unite the elves of Middle-Earth under one banner?

Can I point out that orcs descending from corrupted elves is an idea Tolkien eventually scrapped? He never quite seemed to settle on the origins of orcs, but decided they were their own race and reproduced as other mortal races did, and that they were not of elvish origin.

That's not exactly true, orcs were indeed some of the (first-born) Quendi captured by Morgoth and through torture, slavery and corruption were turned into orcs by Morgoths foul arts. He created the orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves.

Great topic idea, Rich! I love Tolkien's lore.

Can I point out that orcs descending from corrupted elves is an idea Tolkien eventually scrapped? He never quite seemed to settle on the origins of orcs, but decided they were their own race and reproduced as other mortal races did, and that they were not of elvish origin.

I've been thinking about the lineage of the Noldor in the Third Age. Does anyone know whether Elrond could've claimed the title of High King of the Noldor after the fall of Gil-Galad? I'm just rereading the FotR and trying to get through the Council of Elrond, where Boromir (?) says something like the power of the lord of Imladris lies not in arms but in wise counsel. He obviously does not savour battle, but he seems to have been Gil-Galad's second-in-command in The Last Alliance. Maybe he didn't want to become king, but could he have made a case for himself if he wanted to unite the elves of Middle-Earth under one banner?

I do not think Elrond had ever a desire to become High King. Elrond rather would have liked a counsil of the different Elves. But as a matter of fact, Elrond was the High King. There were not that many elves left to rule west of the Misty Mountains, other then already under his command, were there?

Can I point out that orcs descending from corrupted elves is an idea Tolkien eventually scrapped? He never quite seemed to settle on the origins of orcs, but decided they were their own race and reproduced as other mortal races did, and that they were not of elvish origin.

That's not exactly true, orcs were indeed some of the (first-born) Quendi captured by Morgoth and through torture, slavery and corruption were turned into orcs by Morgoths foul arts. He created the orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves.

In early (and maybe even some printed) chronicles, yes, but Tolkien revisited these passages because he found a problem: he eventually settled on the fact that no one apart from Eru is capable of creating life, and Morgoth's ability to "corrupt" orcs means he can create a new race. And he wasn't supposed to be able to create life. This was a problem. Tolkien was also concerned with orcs' longevity - if they were indeed descended from elves, they'd probably be immortal and he didn't want that. This is muddled, but he seems eventually to have settled on the orcs not being related to elves - he just doesn't give an alternative explanation.

Can I point out that orcs descending from corrupted elves is an idea Tolkien eventually scrapped? He never quite seemed to settle on the origins of orcs, but decided they were their own race and reproduced as other mortal races did, and that they were not of elvish origin.

That's not exactly true, orcs were indeed some of the (first-born) Quendi captured by Morgoth and through torture, slavery and corruption were turned into orcs by Morgoths foul arts. He created the orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves.

In early (and maybe even some printed) chronicles, yes, but Tolkien revisited these passages because he found a problem: he eventually settled on the fact that no one apart from Eru is capable of creating life, and Morgoth's ability to "corrupt" orcs means he can create a new race. And he wasn't supposed to be able to create life. This was a problem. Tolkien was also concerned with orcs' longevity - if they were indeed descended from elves, they'd probably be immortal and he didn't want that. This is muddled, but he seems eventually to have settled on the orcs not being related to elves - he just doesn't give an alternative explanation.

It is hardly the creation of life if he takes something that is already alive and deforms it? What i said before is taken pretty much directly from the Silmarillion. Here is the quote:

Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken , were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs.