Happy Halloween.

Last week I started running "Debts to Pay" with my group. The group make-up is: Weequay Marauder, Corellian Human Pilot, Droid Slicer, Drall Outlaw Tech, Human Mercenary, and a Human Politico.

I'm beginning to see a looming problem appearing between the Drall Outlaw Tech and the Droid Slicer. The Droid Slicer was more conservative with his stats and skills and invested in a more rounded character, but is still very good at computers and slicing. But the Drall Outlaw Tech really took advantage of his high starting Intelligence, and raised it to 5 at the start, with points in mechanics.

So this happens the other night, the Drall is owning all his rolls having to do anything with intelligence, and even thou he is a mechanical type character, he wants to use his obscenely high starting intelligence to start doing all the computers and slicing checks too. So now he is walking all over the Droid players character and succeeding at his checks because of his intelligence. And I feel bad for the guy playing the Droid Slicer because this other character is doing his job as good or better then him. What am I to do?

Well, this is what I tried.... I told the mechanics Drall that I would have to add a couple of set back dice to any technical computers or slicing checks he wants to make. My reasoning is that even thou his character is very smart, that doesn't give him book or training smarts. So hes never tried slicing anything before, or tried decrypting hidden and password locked information off a computer, so since he is a newbie at those skills he would have setback dice. Basically I told him that it would be like the computer hacking droid trying to dismantle and part strip, and put back together, a very complex hyperdrive motivator. The droid is a master with making computers do what he wants but can't even change the oil on the ship.

But my Drall player didn't like this at all!! He got upset and said "what ever happened to being able to attempt any skill check?" And that if he knew I was going to do this, he would have made his character differently and put a point into computers. And then countered that setback dice were only supposed to be used in cases of environmental conditions, under fire conditions, or if something is broken. (Like the computer screen has a large crack across the monitor) And no where in the CORE does it say setback dice can be used in this way. And he challenged me to find something in the books that supports my use of setback dice in that way.

So I don't know what to do. Can you more experienced GM's tell me what to do, or how you may have handled similar situations like this.

Thanks,

Darthslash

Personally, in almost any RPG I run, any time people want to change their characters within like 2-3 sessions, I let them rebuild it however they want (so long as the new build was an option for them from the start and they keep their starting XP separate from their XP gained during play). This is especially true when players are new to the system or role-playing in general. So long as everyone has the same option to rebuild before starting the 4th session (or whatever you want to do - it could be a longer or shorter window at your preference), it's fair to everyone. Even as an experienced player, it's often difficult to judge how others will build their characters and build your own to fit the group. This applies both to overlapping abilities and just the general proficiency other characters in the group have compared to your own.

This is especially true with FFG Star Wars where the seemingly optimal build (spending most/all of your starting XP on characteristics and specifically starting with a 5 in your primary characteristic because you can't raise them easily after character creation) results in relatively boring characters with few skills, talents, or powers at the very start. A rebuild after a few sessions allows people to start the game with some interesting abilities, try things out, see how they match up to their companions, and get a feel for the system before building a character they feel is more optimal and are more happy with for the long term. Of course, make sure they keep their starting XP separate from their XP gained during play since each pool has different restrictions placed on it.

If you don't want to do that or if there's still a major imbalance afterward, remember that the way XP works in this game allows everyone to develop their characters in different directions. Award bigger chunks of XP for the first few games to get everyone to a level of XP that generally overshadows initial build discrepancies or just wait a while; it'll balance out if the players know how to build characters and aren't just taking stuff at random.

One thing that I am loathe to do is to arbitrarily change the rules, take away character abilities, or ban stuff. Sure, there are plenty of times where it's appropriate (banning a species that doesn't exist during the time period a la Yuuzhan Vong in a KOTOR game, disallowing a Sith Lord PC in a Jedi campaign, etc.). But, as a powergamer and rules-lawyer myself, I hate when GMs can't handle the rules or their players well enough to figure out another way to bring balance to the party other than straight-up nerfing me or cheating. Therefore, I never do it when I'm running games.

Trust me when I say I understand that balance is the hardest part of GMing (when it comes to the rules anyway, writing good stories is also hard unless you're just one of those crazy creative types ), and FFG Star Wars does not make it easy on you. They don't have much in the way of balance guidelines and expect you to just use the Force and trust your feelings to strike the right balance.

Well you should probably point out to him that the droid player made his character to do the slicing, he's even an actual Slicer.

Tell him that, while he can still do slicing, that its walking over the droid player's specialty and he should, as a courtesy, stop hogging the slicing.

And if the droid player is really feeling down, point out that with his more well rounded character he's much more versatile. Maybe he should consider going down another path in addition to slicing, maybe offer to let him remake his character if he's interested.

As for the guy whining about what you can and can't do with setbacks, remind him you are the GM. You can add a setback die for whatever reason you want. I don't think its unreasonable to give a setback if he truly is unfamiliar with a computer, although I can't come up with a justification why. High intellect basically means you are well versed in all manner of things.

Just a real quick thought on setback dice. Yes, they are an environmental factor. That means that it is a small upgrade to the difficulty due to other factors than not being trained in something. For computers, an environmental factor could be that the computer is a Cybot galactica, and you are using an Industrial Automaton datapad to talk to, gain a setback die. Oh, the code is also written in the Gand programming language of G++, and you are not too familiar with that code, add another setback die. So. now the mechanic has two set back die to his check. A dedicated Slicer, with the right talents could knock those setback die out quick. But the key here is that both of these setback dice would be presented to BOTH characters. One just has the ability to get rid of them.

Your player is only looking at the environment in one way, and I'm sorry he is not correct.

noun

1.P

the aggregate of surrounding things, conditions, or influences; surroundings; milieu.

2.

Ecology. the air, water, minerals, organisms, and all other external factors surrounding and affecting a given organism at any time.

3.

the social and cultural forces that shape the life of a person or a population.

4.

Computers. the hardware or software configuration, or the mode of operation, of a computer system:

In a time-sharing environment, transactions are processed as they occur.

5.

an indoor or outdoor setting that is characterized by the presence of environmental art that is itself designed to be site-specific.

So the word "environment" is a very broad term, and can mean about anything when it comes to using setback dice.

I am a very firm believer in using Setback dice very liberally. There is about zero dice pools created that does not have at least one setback die in it, if not 2-3. The funny thing is, my guys love love this. There are so many talents out there that get rid of setback dice, that they don't feel like the talents are wasted. They love being able to pull those two setback out of the pool, and give me that little smirk, like they are getting one over the GM. When they can do that, they really feel the investment was worth it, especially if two guys are doing the same thing, and one has the ability to take away the setback die, and the other does not.

The CORE does state you can add in setback dice anyway you want to, and also that you as the GM have final say over everything, can even counter the book if you so desire.

So I do not think you were wrong in about any case. I do not agree with your reasoning for adding in the setback dice. That is just a matter of word choice though. I would put a little different spin on it, like in my example above. You can't add in a setback because you feel thier skill isn't good enough, but you can in a setback die due to conflicting technologies, or the wrong type of adapters, (you have a USB cable, and it is a FireWire port, and you have to use a makeshift connector). So you are right in using the setback, again, I would go with a different, non confrontational word choice. Also, explaining it this way would also make it seem that this setback would apply to everyone, not just his PC, which is how setback should work. Now the droid slicer just extends a new arm with the FireWire connector on it, removing the setback die.

If anything I have typed here comes off as a bit snarky, I am sorry, it was NOT directed at you, but your player! Final thought: I believe in the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, until that infringes on someone's else's right to life, liberty,and the pursuit of happiness. This is what this player is doing, in trying to be happy, he is stepping on someone else, which is wrong in my opinion. I hope this rambling may help you out a little bit, and good luck out there. MTFBWY...A.

Well, you could handle it that way that slicing absolutely requieres slicer gear which the slicer droid might / should already have. Trying to slice without it would make the check difficulty increase by one. I know in the rules it talkes about setbacks for not having the right tools, but for my games i don't see a real difference to medicine checks that also increase difficulty when no medkit is available.

The good thing about this: your slicer will have it easier to slice, as slicing gear is restricted you have much more control and options if and when the outlaw tech can obtain such equipment and thus closing the gap.

Also i would remind all players at the table of two things:

1.

The pcs are there to fill a certain role, at best each one has its own. If things overlap you expect people to collaborate instead of compete for making all the checks and take the all the glorry.

2.

Show the pcs that there is a nice rule called skilled and unskilled assistance. Maybe even let some allied NPCs step up to show them how great these concepts are. Explain the concepts, especially skilled assistence, which will prove to be very effective for the drall to support the slicer with slicing. Try to bring both together to form the absolute slicing mechanics team. Together they could achieve so much more. Even go so far to suggest that the outlaw tech could further improve the teams ability by using his tinkerer talent on the slicergear of the droid. Reward some extra xp afterwards for such an heroic act.

Last note:

If the one player continues to insist that he should take all the slicing checks you could still try the following: try to seperate the two when scenes or encounters with heavy slicing will occur. That way it is clear who can handle what. You can also throw difficult mechanic- encounters at the drall, that only this character will be able to solve efficiently. This will keep him busy at the things he is best skilled at and leaves all slicing that needs to be done to the droid. Of course those concepts will not work all the time and its allways best to convince the players to leave room for other pcs to shine.

I hope these ideas might help you.

Those setback dice (aswell as boon and bane dice from whfrp3d) never sat well with me because of situations like this. Wth other rpgs you could make things harder, but with these negative dice, it just stands out so much more. You (the GM) are literally handing out these cursed dice to eff up their roll. You keep giving them to the same player all the while they get upset and start to wonder "why me?"

it shouldn't just be "me" that is getting the setback dice, it should be everyone. Then the talents that get rid of them are actually being used for a great benefit.

The player sounds difficult. If he has a 5 in one stat, the rest are probably 2s, so it sounds like he needs to be regularly challenged in his weak areas. Shining in one area is all well and good, but don't let him take a back seat for stealth, social skills, or in combat.

I wouldn't have a problem at all with applying setback dice on untrained checks, especially with something technical like knowledge (education), astrogation, or computers. Things like Mechanics are often as much about seeing or feeling as intellect, and things like knowledge (underworld) can be picked up just be being particularly alert or aware. But of course this player sounds like he's going to feel singled out because he's probably the only one with a dice pool big enough to want to try things untrained.

As others have noted, lack of a specific tool kit will certainly grant at least one setback, if not more, or even a difficulty upgrade, but this player sounds like he'll want to "borrow" the other player's tool kit, or make buying one a big priority.

I had a similar, though opposite, situation in my group. One player had a lot of overlap with the others, but because his character was so broad his dice pools on the shared skills were always smaller. So he wasn't getting to roll much, just add a boost die to support here and there. He was rightly frustrated, so the next session I made sure to: try and have more than one thing to do to complete a task when there was skill overlap, and that those things had to be resolved simultaneously or within the same time frame; or make sure that a character with a higher dice pool was busy doing something unrelated. It wasn't that difficult to do.

To clarify, R2builder is basically correct. You can penalise everyone (which may play to the strengths of a dedicated slicer character), but you can't personally penalise the Intelligence 5 character in an attempt to hold him back.

The way this system works, there is no "untrained" penalty to skill checks. Having no ranks in a skill doesn't make a character any worse at that skill (he just doesn't get the bonuses of training). So the Intelligence 5 player is correct. His character's Computers checks should be no more difficult than the Computers checks of the slicer character.

If the Computers check is, say, Difficulty 3 with 1 setback die for trying to work while riding on a moving speeder, then both the Intelligence 5 character and the slicer character should be rolling against Difficulty 3 with 1 setback die. Now as R2 mentioned, the slicer character might have a slicer talent that will allow him to remove that setback die, giving him a small comparative advantage. But the basic difficulty of the check should be the same for both characters.

For better or worse, this system is designed so that characteristics are extremely powerful and grant a great deal of basic ability across a wide range of tasks. The Intelligence 5 character will be rolling at least 5 ability dice on every check involving an Intelligence skill, and he shouldn't be suffering any special penalties, even if he has no skills ranks.

However, as Whafrog mentioned, what you should be doing is finding ways to make him roll lots of checks based on characteristics other than Intelligence. With an Intelligence of 5, he probably has 2s and 1s for all of his other characteristics, plus very few skill ranks (at least in the early game). So while he is extremely competent at all the different Intelligence-based tasks, he's pretty lousy at everything else. If he's chosen to hyper-specialise in this way, then he should be made to regularly suffer the drawbacks.

There is many ways to deal with this within the game, but i beleave that conflics between players should be resolved outside the game. Talk with them and sort the "role" each one will fill within the party. This is cooperative game so make them think cooperatively.

There is many ways to deal with this within the game, but i beleave that conflics between players should be resolved outside the game. Talk with them and sort the "role" each one will fill within the party. This is cooperative game so make them think cooperatively.

Pretty much this

Let the slicing droid do the slicing, and the drall can be an "advisor". Doing in game rules fudging only makes players feel cheated.

One option might be to create situations that require a lot of slicing. Ask the players to consider what the specialties of their characters would be when it comes to slicing.

Similar to how ranged and melee are two separate combat styles, or how streetfighting is a different specialty than sophisticated martial arts.

Basically, you've got two PCs' worth of good slicers, so maybe give them a LOT of slicing challenges. Ones that can't all be done by one person.

Maybe they need to slice two computers at the same time, in different locations.

Maybe the Drall specializes in breaking into security systems and the Droid specializes in reprogramming computers. They might be able to work together to overcome some really sophisticated computer systems.

Maybe the Drall is slicing a computer and it 'gets wise' to him, recognizing his datapad's signature or something, which requires a second slicer to come in and finish the job. This could be similar to how you might not be able to just keep rolling Deception checks on the same person, after a while they might just figure out what you're doing.

Anyway, it's a tough situation but I feel your pain!

Make a list of all the players characterists and skills and when you are talking about slicing talk to the person who IS the slicer. You can take the choice away from the players somewhat this way and make sure that the intelligence of 5 guy doesn't just userp every dice roll where he has no skills.

I think you also have to stop the rules lawyering, as long as you are being fair, the setback dice are your choice and reasoning. Players should be able to check why the dice are in a pool, and the bad dice in a pool should be much the same from player to player. But asking for supporting rules is overstepping the line, at this point they are disrupting the game and causing problems.

You can just let them know you'll double check the rules between games and forge on, or let them know that you are trying to make the game fun and interesting for everyone at the table and they should step back and trust that this will happen.

Personally, I wouldn't bother telling this guy when the next session is...

EDIT: Or slap a Nemesis on him, waste the Drall and suggest that be make a more rounded character instead of being a min/maxing munchkin pain in the ass.

Also, you're the GM if you suddenly want Successes to be Failures and Triumphs to be negative, it's your prerogative.

I know this seems harsh, but that challenge of "show me where it says".... I'd hold up a blank piece of paper... "I'm the GM - It says it right here".

This shouldn't be a competition issue. He's a Drall. He works very well at providing skilled assistance. For slicing, use his 5 Intellect, the droid's Computer skill level (I assume that it's higher than that of the Drall), and then add the Drall's racial bonus of a Boost die. The issue is going to be that, working together, they have the ability to slice **** near anything that they can get access to.

Where Slicer's come into their own in regards to computers is two particular talents:

Codebreaker

Defensive Slicing

Neither of which an Outlaw tech has and they're very important for the following reasons.

Codebreaker gets you through encryption and anything worth knowing IS encrypted, heap on some black dice and watch the average computer user weep.

Defensive Slicing is important because it keeps people out of your stuff, namely any communications gear you have (you do encrypt your group comms don't you?... guys?), stops people kicking in the door of your spaceship and slicing your butt out of the sky.

Bypass Security

Another important skill for when your Slicer comes up against an advanced security system- knocking off black dice each rank from opening doors, safes, sensor nets etc.

Lastly, the big ace in the Slicer arsenal is Master Slicer , so when you're ripping down data from some imperial network or computer, its full of encryption and passwords adding a couple of blacks, difficult at about 5 Purples and Mr User has a go- even with 2-3 ranks and a couple of greens is probably going to fail.

Meanwhile, the Slicer with 2 ranks of codebreaker just removed the blacks by default, spent 2 strain and knocked the difficulty down to 4 purple with a much better chance of success.

The other thing the droid should capitalise on is that, they're a droid, they're everywhere and no one cares unless they pop out lots of guns, grenades and begin exterminating everything. So, the player needs to capitalise on the fact 'its just a droid jacking into a computer terminal and doing stuff', probably right under the noses of everyone. (If they ask, just beep at them)

Meanwhile, 1000's of Stormtroopers have PTSD from Endor and any furry midget running around needs to be shot.

Where Slicer's come into their own in regards to computers is two particular talents:

Codebreaker

Defensive Slicing

Neither of which an Outlaw tech has and they're very important for the following reasons.

Bypass Security

Master Slicer ,

The other thing the droid should capitalise on is that, they're a droid, they're everywhere and no one cares unless they pop out lots of guns, grenades and begin exterminating everything. So, the player needs to capitalise on the fact 'its just a droid jacking into a computer terminal and doing stuff', probably right under the noses of everyone. (If they ask, just beep at them)

Meanwhile, 1000's of Stormtroopers have PTSD from Endor and any furry midget running around needs to be shot.

Technical Aptitude is another useful (and low cost) Talent for Slicers, if you are including challenges where slicing is on a time limit. Extra successes can reduce the time taken, but having an automatic reduction is even better.

And about the dice. With a 5 Int, the Drall is probably rolling more dice, but isn't using Proficiency (Yellow) dice, which means there's no chance of a Triumph. Triumph can be used to cover up what you're doing. If they aren't taking that precaution, and keep slicing through computer locks, and control computers, there's an increased chance that even a standard network admin is going to see something and raise an alarm.

As was said before, setbacks should be added to the check, not the player, but there can be any number of reasons for Setback dice on a computer check.

• The database is using an unfamiliar, illogical, or confusing organization structure.
• You're sneaking in at night, and the system security locks out all lower level passwords after hours.
• Your earlier slicing to open the doors was noticed and all remote terminals are on lockdown.

Being a droid has other advantages too. Say the terminal they need to use is in a hangar that's exposed to vacuum, or the Gand who owns the computer has his office set up with an ammonia atmosphere. (just beware, as a mechanic (edit:) an outlaw tech, he'll probably find a way to shut that down) Also, try to come up with ways that having additional skills can give him better access or ways around challenges that the one trick Drall will have a harder time with. It's more difficult to come up with enough opportunities with 2 Technician characters. With multiple combat types, you can throw enough bad guys that they all have targets. This one's a little trickier.

Okay, so while he was right about the Setbacks, you do have the ability to put them in for any reason, as long as they apply equally to any character making the check. Hopefully, the Slicer has invested in the talents to remove setbacks. Beyond that, you still need to deal with a player who seems bent on hogging the spotlight. That's where the talk needs to happen. Okay, he's good with the rules, but it sounds like he's ruining the game for at least one other player, and possibly you too.

If he doesn't want to back down, find out if the droid player is interested in doing something else. If he really wants to be a slicer, you need to find a way to get them to agree, or let the droid slicer do a reboot and arrange his stats to better compete with the other player. (though personally, "compete with the other player" is a phrase I'd rather avoid in a cooperative game like this) OR, if there is still too much conflict, my recommendation would be a rebuild of the droid character as a Theif with computer and skulduggery skills, Indistinguishable, Bypass Security, and Hidden storage (on himself).

So, I keep XP level at each session; if you participate, you get the same XP as everyone else, using guidelines for how many encounters in a session. I also award a bonus for good roleplaying, with a number of criteria. Clever quotes and character voices go a long way, but the main one is playing the characters, not the stats. This Drall could essentially be costing the whole team a bonus, depending on how often it comes up in a session.

Beyond that, Digital Chicanery has a valid solution of excluding him from the game, as a last resort. Don't make that decision lightly, and don't make it by yourself. Personally, I have one group with a player who was really good at finding advantages in his vast collection of (d20) sourcebooks. He was also incredibly forgetful of any disadvantages that were present, and complained when I remembered one and put the game on hold to verify. The other players were annoyed with him but didn't want to do anything about it. We still game together, but not Star Wars, since I was the only one willing to GM it, and that is no longer the case.

Everyone has made excellent remarks on how to handle this player. I would like to add, your unskilled Drall has no chance for a triumph. Sure he may roll more successes and a few advantage, but without yellow dice he will never roll a triumph so his selfish behavior is actually robbing th party of a valuable resource. I would rather roll three Yellows than 5 Green any day of the week. If you point this out to him and he decides to take computers just to get that die, then he is obviously trying to hog the spotlight and doesn't care if the droid player is involved. At this point he needs a serious talking to with a second offense being ejection from the game.

You know, everyone is pointing out game mechanics to use against him or how to handle it at the table, but nobody has yet mentioned the most important thing: have you tried talking to him yet? Away from the group, away from the table, express your concerns, tell him that you want the game to be fun for everyone and see if you cant come to a compromise that lets him have fun and keeps the equilibrium at the table.

Do that first, before you deploy the in-game sanctions against him and his character. If you cant come to an understanding, THEN bring on the black dice and/or tell him he's not welcome.

There is many ways to deal with this within the game, but i beleave that conflics between players should be resolved outside the game. Talk with them and sort the "role" each one will fill within the party. This is cooperative game so make them think cooperatively.

This guy said it.