Missiles and Warheads no longer spend Target Lock, Ordnance get +1 attack die against large and huge ships (since they are larger targets and slower moving... in theory).

Oh yeah, Epic ship purchase to get C3PO, player has never played an epic game.

or use common sense and put another 1-3 ruler on top of a 1-3 ruler and shift it up two notches....

FFG as a matter of policy provides everything you need in a package and only assumes you have access to a single core set. So the only way they'd ever increase the range of missiles, is by including a range 5 ruler in a expansion and either creating a new missile/torpedo with range 5. Or perhaps some sort of upgrade that increases the range of them.

But they would never put new weapons or an upgrade that does that, without including the range 5 ruler.

Oh yeah, Epic ship purchase to get C3PO, player has never played an epic game.

or use common sense and put another 1-3 ruler on top of a 1-3 ruler and shift it up two notches....

FFG as a matter of policy provides everything you need in a package and only assumes you have access to a single core set. So the only way they'd ever increase the range of missiles, is by including a range 5 ruler in a expansion and either creating a new missile/torpedo with range 5. Or perhaps some sort of upgrade that increases the range of them.

But they would never put new weapons or an upgrade that does that, without including the range 5 ruler.

Thats not actually true, they publish missions as parts of packs that require you to have specific expansions. They dont make sure you can play anything they make out the box

to play the huge ship campaigns you need either multiple transports in the case of the RT or you have to have no end of set expansions (shuttle, advanced, falcon or slave 1, tie expansion) to play the scenarios given in the tantive box set.

So they've set a precedent against 'self contained expansions' there for a start.

Our group has tried four things:

We have said that all ordinance gains the ability to re-roll 1 blank die.

For range 2-3 ordinance add +1 attack die to all.

All ships targeted and hit by ordinance gain a stress token. Lets face it when someone shoots a missile at you it can be stressful. This was one of our favorite. And made abilities to break target lock a little better too

Any ships targeted by ordinance, must subtract 1 from their agility (Minimum of 0). Not only do they not get an extra die for range 3, but they must subtract 1 from their agility also. This was our second favorite

I like the rotate the card idea. Essentially cuts price in half but is easy to modify the game instead of every card

I like it. Well they use exhaust in Descent.

They dont make sure you can play anything they make out the box

Yes they do. There is nothing you need to play with that model that isn't included in either the package or the core set. You can use the ship, and every card that comes with it.

The fact that expansions require stuff you may not have, is no different than not being able to play a 100 point game, or fly a given list.

The problem with ordnance as I see it is that it's only really viable on ships that don't need it (i.e. high ps named pilots) and not really viable on ships that you do want to put it on (cheap low ps generics)

So how about a modification that cannot be put on any ship above ps 4?

Autolock - modification - 1pt

You may treat all secondary weapon attacks with the missile or torpedo header as having a target lock even if you do not have one.

This card may not be equipped by any pilot above ps 4

They dont make sure you can play anything they make out the box

Yes they do. There is nothing you need to play with that model that isn't included in either the package or the core set. You can use the ship, and every card that comes with it.

The fact that expansions require stuff you may not have, is no different than not being able to play a 100 point game, or fly a given list.

No they dont

to play the campaign which is about 50 per cent of the printed materials in there you need stuff that isnt in the tantive box or the core set.

Sorry but thats just a fact.

Sorry but thats just a fact.

All the upgrades, all the pilots, all the abilities that come with the expansion can be used with what comes in the expansion and the core set.

Missions aren't game components, and there's no game components included in an expansion pack that you can't use with what's comes in the expansion or core set.

That would not include an increased range ord upgrade if it didn't include a longer ruler.

The problem with ordnance as I see it is that it's only really viable on ships that don't need it (i.e. high ps named pilots) and not really viable on ships that you do want to put it on (cheap low ps generics)

So how about a modification that cannot be put on any ship above ps 4?

Autolock - modification - 1pt

You may treat all secondary weapon attacks with the missile or torpedo header as having a target lock even if you do not have one.

This card may not be equipped by any pilot above ps 4

EDIT: Maybe limit the target lock to a target in arc to make taking the action a bit more of a gamble in order to keep the price down.

was just thinking how pretty useless Missiles and torpedoes seem to be. What if one was allowed to take both a Missile and or torpedo shot AND a regular laser attack in the same combat phase? or at the vary least allow a ship to fire both missiles at the same time if they have 2 loaded!

Well if they put in those big ships like Nebulon-B and Star Destroyer I came up with some house rules for docking actions. If ship is docked in the docking bay roll an evade dice. On an evade recover one upgrade card with the attack heading that was discarded from that ship during this game. On a focus you may spend one energy to change it to an evade result.

The problem with ordnance as I see it is that it's only really viable on ships that don't need it (i.e. high ps named pilots) and not really viable on ships that you do want to put it on (cheap low ps generics)

So how about a modification that cannot be put on any ship above ps 4?

Autolock - modification - 1pt

You may treat all secondary weapon attacks with the missile or torpedo header as having a target lock even if you do not have one.

This card may not be equipped by any pilot above ps 4

I like the ps 4 or lower idea but I don't think it should cost anything. HLC costs 7 points and can be used over and over again. 4 points for one shot is enough cost like HLC you should be able to shoot them when you want

So Autolock or Auto guidance system

I think cost is the major factor. I think Concussion Missiles and Protons Torps at 3 points for have been fine, for example.

...but I think I would have designed ordnance dice (maybe blue dice) that are used instead of red dice.

There are a number of possible variations that are possible.

Blank, Blank, Focus, Focus, Crit, Crit, Crit, Crit

Blank, Focus, Focus, Hit, Hit, Hit, Crit, Crit

Blank, Blank, Focus, Hit, Hit, Hit, Crit, Crit

Of all the options I actually like the first one best. It does not invalidate any ordnance type (like protons triggering of focus). It increases the potential for damage, but not overwhelming only so, and gives the firer a tough choice, do you save them for after shields are down or not.

The other options increase the probability that you can get max hits with less intervention via modification (TL or focus), so it slightly elevates the average number of hits/crits rolled. For the middle option focus is still a big deal, for the second, focus is less important, but rerolls are more important, which helps some more than others.

I am sure there are other setups that would work equally well, but I like the idea of increasing the potential for crits off ordnance as standard. Of course short of an X-wing core set 2.0 we won't see a change like this.

Here's a quick one:

When an Ordinance card says to discard it, Tap the card instead (turn it 90 degrees to the right).

If an Ordinance card is already Tapped, discard it.

Munitions Failsafe prevents both Tapping and discarding in the event of a missed shot.

As others have said, change this from "Tap" to "Exhaust" and its perfect.

FFG has (wisely) tried to stay away from dramatic rules changes through FAQs. Having that sort of dynamic in the rules of a game encourages a high rate of turnover in what is usable and what is not. I'd like to point out that with a few exceptions almost everything in the game is quite competitive. Some combos are better (read: countered by less things) than others obviously but that is essentially impossible to avoid.

The Chardaan Refit card is a perfect example of the designers fixing something that was a tad out of whack and making it competitive again. I think we should focus on 'fixing' issues with new cards rather than rendering what we have written on the cards now no longer correct.

My vote would be a 1-2 point 'Expanded Magazine' modification card. "When an ordinance card specifics it be discarded, discard this card instead" or something similar. No new rules, no old cards voided (other than Munitions Failsafe perhaps), and the game goes right on not being the abomination that is Warhammer 40k.

FFG has (wisely) tried to stay away from dramatic rules changes through FAQs. Having that sort of dynamic in the rules of a game encourages a high rate of turnover in what is usable and what is not. I'd like to point out that with a few exceptions almost everything in the game is quite competitive. Some combos are better (read: countered by less things) than others obviously but that is essentially impossible to avoid.

The Chardaan Refit card is a perfect example of the designers fixing something that was a tad out of whack and making it competitive again. I think we should focus on 'fixing' issues with new cards rather than rendering what we have written on the cards now no longer correct.

My vote would be a 1-2 point 'Expanded Magazine' modification card. "When an ordinance card specifics it be discarded, discard this card instead" or something similar. No new rules, no old cards voided (other than Munitions Failsafe perhaps), and the game goes right on not being the abomination that is Warhammer 40k.

I like your wording for the Expanded Magazine. It is simple and works with the existing mechanics. This is the type of fix that I think we have seen a precedent for. I agree that dramatic overhauls should be avoided.

However, ID X T's idea about separate ordinance dice is an interesting fix also. I think the first option with all hits being crits is viable and thematically appropriate. Maybe make the dice yellow and associate them with scum (just because there is a color association pattern already). New dice would also fit nicely in the game without radical change to existing cards.

The only problem I see with ordinance dice that would make it difficult to implement is that the Core Set would need to change to include them so new players wouldn't need to buy extras right off the bat. Though this may give them an opportunity to release new 'core' sets. They could be 2-3 ships from one faction similar to Most Wanted but with all the dice, templates, rulers & damage cards. This is beginning to be a stretch, but I like where ID X T is going.

I dunno. The first time they start talking about 'Version 2' of the rules I am gonna start thinking about packing up my miniatures.... and wallet. At the risk of sounding like an oldtimer, I like the rules the way they are and introducing an entire new set of dice or whatever to fix a tiny unbalance in one completely extraneous aspect of the game is going to really put me off buying new stuff just to stay competitive.

While I would tolerate having old cards be 'nullified' by new ones (like Expanded Magazine nullifying Munitions Failsafe), I don't want to see entire ships and sets made obsolete. Rather than an FAQ about reducing Ordinance cards, simply release 'Heavy Rockets' which are exactly like Advanced Proton Torpedes just 2 pts cheaper with the Separatist Federation starter set or something. Perhaps 'Proton Torpedoes Mk II' which are better than Proton Torpedoes for the same price.

I think cost is the major factor. I think Concussion Missiles and Protons Torps at 3 points for have been fine, for example.

...but I think I would have designed ordnance dice (maybe blue dice) that are used instead of red dice.

There are a number of possible variations that are possible.

Blank, Blank, Focus, Focus, Crit, Crit, Crit, Crit

Blank, Focus, Focus, Hit, Hit, Hit, Crit, Crit

Blank, Blank, Focus, Hit, Hit, Hit, Crit, Crit

Of all the options I actually like the first one best. It does not invalidate any ordnance type (like protons triggering of focus). It increases the potential for damage, but not overwhelming only so, and gives the firer a tough choice, do you save them for after shields are down or not.

The other options increase the probability that you can get max hits with less intervention via modification (TL or focus), so it slightly elevates the average number of hits/crits rolled. For the middle option focus is still a big deal, for the second, focus is less important, but rerolls are more important, which helps some more than others.

I am sure there are other setups that would work equally well, but I like the idea of increasing the potential for crits off ordnance as standard. Of course short of an X-wing core set 2.0 we won't see a change like this.

I haven't done the math but a die with a 50% crit chance is potentially a big increase in damage that is biased against Imperials. Any big change to ordnance shouldn't make shields even more desirable over hull than they already are.

My favored easy fix is that Ordinance fires at PS 13. OR, and I'm liking this better as i type it, ordinance fired goes off at PS 0, but instead at the beginning of the Combat phase, you declare if a ship is using ordinance or not. Then the Ordinance is considered "used" and goes off even if the firing ship is destroyed. That way lower PS ships get to use their ordinance even if they get destroyed before they go. Also represents the "slower" missiles.
My other idea, and this might be easier to fit into the existing rules, is that when you declare the TL action, you don't perform the TL until the beginning of the Combat Phase.

wanting more discussion on my points so i am bringing it up again.. Why not allow ships to expend ALL their ordinance at once if so desired? or allow ships with ordinance to take a normal Laser shot AND expend ordinance at the same time. that way FFG doesn't have to change point costs for anything. and ships get a potentially devastating single shot or two shot punch if your loaded with multiple munitions. Would definitely increase munition builds!!! FFG could also release a couple of anti missile/ torpedo cards. "Chaff/Flare dispensers" if used. any target locks on your ship are discarded then discard this card... would be an action and a cheap one like one or two points. Another possible anti missile card could be "ECM" once per turn if your pilot skill is HIGHER then the opponents skill that has a Target lock on you, you may discard that target lock (only one target lock may be discarded). Would be an expensive card, 4 points maybe? (also was thinking that back in the early days jinking would sometimes allow a pilot to shake off a target lock or missile) Why not have something in the game to reflect that if the defensive player has chosen a RED maneuver ALL target locks are lost.. So one would be faced with the choice of losing an action or getting double tapped by a missile/laser attack!! Just my 2 cents.... ok maybe 3, 4 tops!!!

A fix for ordnance would break the game. To work for e. g. an X-Wing, a torpedo would have to be significantly better than the standard attack of 3 red dice at range 3. Such a torpedo would decide the game in the first round. Skip maneuvering, just roll the dice and that's it. You might as well play some trash from GW.

my "fix" would basically allow ships with ordinance to preform TWO attacks at once. and along with my anti Missile/torpedo devices brings a fair balance to everything... maybe.. lol just want to see what the experts think.. and I am NOT one of them...

How about this

All ordinance fires at +5 PS, so they shoot earlier and then most primary weapons and pilots, but not the expensive named pilots.

A fix for ordnance would break the game. To work for e. g. an X-Wing, a torpedo would have to be significantly better than the standard attack of 3 red dice at range 3. Such a torpedo would decide the game in the first round. Skip maneuvering, just roll the dice and that's it. You might as well play some trash from GW.

A fix shouldn't be concerned with making ordnance more appealing on an X-Wing, Defender, or YT-1300. It should make ordnance appealing on Ys, Bombers, and the Advanced.