So it looks like I'll be running "Armed to the Teeth" vs 4 heroes soon, and I've discovered what appears to be a flaw in this quest while strategizing. I'd appreciate a second pair of eyes on it though.

I have gone the Warlord path this time and just picked up Reinforce (the errata'd version, mind you). However, even with errata I think the quest might be busted because of it.

Basically this is my plan.

OL Turn 1: All Hybrid Sentinels double move towards Foundry.

OL Turn 2: All Hybrid Sentinels now in Foundry. Collect 3 Aurium Wargear. (3 total).

OL Turn 3: Collect 3 Aurium Wargear. (6 total).

OL Turn 4: Collect 2 Aurium Wargear (8 total).

OL Turn 5: All Hybrid Sentinels move to Lava Cave.

OL Turn 6: Move 2 Minion Hybrid Sentinels off the map. Leave Master on the Lava Cave. (2x fatigue tokens)

OL Turn 7: Place 1 minion Hybrid Sentinel on the Ruins (optional). Then, play Reinforce on the master on the Lava Cave. Master and new minion move off map. (4x fatigue tokens) Quest complete.

Notes: I don't really care about the outcome of Encounter 1, as Splig isn't required for the plan. That said, I will be aiming to acquire my two Dashes going into Encounter 2. That's not guaranteed of course, but if I get it, this can actually be won in 6 Overlord turns by getting 2 Aurium Wargear right on OL Turn 1.

It is certain I will get Reinforce by the end of OL Turn 6, as less than 10 turns is required for me to have drawn my whole deck over the two encounters.

==

I think this quest has an issue in that it was designed to require at least one Hybrid Sentinel to be forced to spawn all the way in the Ruins and then have to run to the Exit over multiple turns in order to complete the quest. This gives the heroes the ability to lockdown this Sentinel and have a chance to kill Valyndra.

However, Reinforce effectively bypasses this and allows the Overlord to complete the quest without ever having to respawn on the Ruins. It is very unlikely that the heroes can reach the Sentinels to stop them within 6-7 turns given they have to fight through the Ruins, find the key, get through multiple doors, and somehow slip past Valyndra herself to destroy/incapacitate heavily armored foes with Aurium Wargear buffs.

I wonder if this quest might require an errata. However, I'm not sure what can be done to fix it. As it is, the heroes' doom appears all but certain, which isn't as fun!

Thoughts?

The card should read, “Play this card at the end of your turn and choose a master monster on the map. Place minion monsters of that monster’s group in empty spaces adjacent to that monster, up to the group limit.”

If I understand this text correctly you ought to play Reinforce at end of your of your 6th turn to leave at the beginning of the 7th turn, but yes, your tactic is viable and puts lots of pressure on the heroes to move fast enough and kill your minions.

Possible errata:

-minions with aurium war gear can't be the target of a reinforce spell.

-sentinels may only re spawn on the ruins independent the type of the reinforcement

There are some possible responses by the heroes. If they have a wildlander or marshall, they can directly attack your overlord cards. If they don't, they can blitz and try to get there before you can manage it. If they can't manage either, then you've done wlel getting to this quest with the advantages you have with your chosen deck, and you deserve your win.

If they can't manage either, then you've done wlel getting to this quest with the advantages you have with your chosen deck, and you deserve your win.

I can't agree more with this.

Argggghhh !!! /BEGIN RANT

One of the things that surprises me with the majority of posts made within this forum, is the mistaken belief that each and every quest/encounter must be perfectly balanced. Both sides must have an exact 50-50 chance of winning.

This is not how this game was, nor how it should be, designed. There is randomness within the game that will affect how any given encounter plays out. This comes not only from the dice, but from the success (or lack thereof) of heroes drawing "good" shop items, winning quests with relics, makeup of the OL deck, OL deck choice, etc.

The beauty of this is that it allows an amazing amount of replay, as no two campaigns are going to play exactly the same, even with the same OL/deck and same heroes.

I just don't understand why most people see this issue as something being broken or over-powered.

In the case stated within this thread, the OP has correctly deduced a strategy that is going to make it exceedingly difficult for the heroes to win this encounter. So be it. That is the nature of the game. If you don't like this, and if you live in the world where "everyone should be equal, and we should all get trophies no matter how well we do", then don't play the game.

Sorry. The last statement may seem harsh, but I get very frustrated by certain gamers that expect all games and all scenarios within those games to lead to a perfect chance of both sides winning. IMHO that is decidedly NOT how these games should play out.

Just because one side devises a solid strategy for winning, does not mean that the encounter is broken.

/END RANT

I think the problem arises from a perception that regardless of gear/skills/OL cards that one side simply cannot win a quest 90% of the time regardless of how well they play.

That said, that is a complete perception issue or down to poor choices way back when.

My last play group decided that slow but tanky/powerful heroes where a good bet. Lots of race quests later they decided this was perhaps unwise.They blamed game balance until i pointed out that i told them ahead of time that speed was important.

Yeah, "Reinforce" on "Armed to the Teeth" is a great and nearly unbeatable strategy if you have that card and end up playing this quest. During a mini-campaign, you could end up losing one more quest than you thought, and suddenly you're playing "At the Forge" instead. Or, if you're playing this as a rumor, all the heroes have to do is pick this advanced quest before you've bought the "Reinforce" card- if you're going "Warlord" at all- are you going pick that deck and save your XP for that card just so that you can destroy this quest if and when it comes up? If so, that's your decision- I've got more important things to spend my XP on.

Sure, when playing this as a standalone map, the OL can always just purchase Reinforce- but that's one of the reasons I prefer to play campaigns instead of single maps- it avoids the pitfall of players customizing to win specific scenarios, and forces the experience process to be a learning/ adaptable one.

Yeah, "Reinforce" on "Armed to the Teeth" is a great and nearly unbeatable strategy if you have that card and end up playing this quest. During a mini-campaign, you could end up losing one more quest than you thought, and suddenly you're playing "At the Forge" instead. Or, if you're playing this as a rumor, all the heroes have to do is pick this advanced quest before you've bought the "Reinforce" card- if you're going "Warlord" at all- are you going pick that deck and save your XP for that card just so that you can destroy this quest if and when it comes up? If so, that's your decision- I've got more important things to spend my XP on.

Sure, when playing this as a standalone map, the OL can always just purchase Reinforce- but that's one of the reasons I prefer to play campaigns instead of single maps- it avoids the pitfall of players customizing to win specific scenarios, and forces the experience process to be a learning/ adaptable one.

Well stated.

The balance of the game is mostly built on that process of learning adaptability.

If a player is allowed to pick and choose his skills and gets all the exact items he wants, of course he could create an unbalanced monster of a hero.

Same with the O/L. If you're given the leisure of not spending any XP until that one card comes up, good for you. But, as a player, if I know your entire strategy focuses on using one card to turn me into a monkey (for example) I'm going to research the best ways to defeat that strategy, such as using Mok's heroic feat, the wildlander or Marshall's skills that allow them to affect the overlord's hand.

And even then, you have to take the randomness of the dice into account. I've personnaly played Descent one night when the number of X rolled on the blue die for ALL attacks that night was over 60% of the total rolls. It was NOT a good night to be a hero that night. (The OL also rolled a few legendary flubs that night, but nowhere

Now a quest that can be won on turn *6* is supposed to be broken? Don't you think the heroes could mess with your plans before you do so, maybe kill a couple of Sentinels, or even win the quest? What are your hero opponents doing usually, doodling around?

We complained when our OL won "The Wyrm Turns" on turn *2* that the quest was broken, maybe rightfully so. But a quest that can be won no earlier than turn 6 with an optimal strategy is definitely run-of-the-mill and needs no errata whatsoever.

The card should read, “Play this card at the end of your turn and choose a master monster on the map. Place minion monsters of that monster’s group in empty spaces adjacent to that monster, up to the group limit.”

Yes, you're absolutely right. Its 'at the end of the turn turn'. It doesn't make much of a difference for this strategy, but thanks for the correction

Possible errata:

-minions with aurium war gear can't be the target of a reinforce spell.

-sentinels may only re spawn on the ruins independent the type of the reinforcement

Yeah, those could work. Another could simply be adding a line to the Reinforcements paragraph saying, "This reinforcement method is the only way that Hybrid Sentinels can be reinforced in this encounter."

There are some possible responses by the heroes. If they have a wildlander or marshall, they can directly attack your overlord cards. If they don't, they can blitz and try to get there before you can manage it. If they can't manage either, then you've done wlel getting to this quest with the advantages you have with your chosen deck, and you deserve your win.

The heroes have neither of these classes this time, muhaha. I think they will try a blitz out of necessity, but I doubt it will succeed! I'll see about writing up a post mortem for this minicampaign once its played out.

Argggghhh !!! /BEGIN RANT

One of the things that surprises me with the majority of posts made within this forum, is the mistaken belief that each and every quest/encounter must be perfectly balanced. Both sides must have an exact 50-50 chance of winning.

Woah, relax :-)

I never said anything about 50-50 chance of winning or perfect balance. That is a strawman.

Sorry. The last statement may seem harsh, but I get very frustrated by certain gamers that expect all games and all scenarios within those games to lead to a perfect chance of both sides winning. IMHO that is decidedly NOT how these games should play out.

Agreed.

I simply pointed out this quest in particular because it stood out to me as a case in which a single card can turn the quest into a near certain loss for the heroes as it bypasses a specific balancing feature (the reinforcement location on the sentinels). FFG noticed this exact problem with the original Reinforce. It completely broke many of the quests in Shadow Rune and made it possible for the overlord to win so early that the heroes never stood any chance!

Did they just cross their arms and state, "The game shouldn't be perfectly balanced. The overlord found the right strategy and thus he should win. If the heroes don't like it they should roll up a Marshall or don't pick that quest, or keep him from getting the exp to acquire that card."

No.

They nerfed the heck out of Reinforce to fix the bug. And good on them for doing it! This is just another example of that, imo. Choosing appropriate monsters, cards, relics, etc. to make a quest is easier is one thing. Bypassing a quest balancing mechanism is another.

During a mini-campaign, you could end up losing one more quest than you thought, and suddenly you're playing "At the Forge" instead. Or, if you're playing this as a rumor, all the heroes have to do is pick this advanced quest before you've bought the "Reinforce" card- if you're going "Warlord" at all- are you going pick that deck and save your XP for that card just so that you can destroy this quest if and when it comes up? If so, that's your decision- I've got more important things to spend my XP on.

This is a mini-campaign I'm playing through right now, but I had already decided on a Warlord playstyle. It works well with Bel'thir's deck, which is quite aggressive.

I've won every single quest so far up to Armed to the Teeth, so we're doing this one as the finale. I picked up Reinforce before "What's Yours is Mine" because I wanted to try it with my new Sorcerer minis and Death Wish! It was almost as fun as I thought it would be XD

I agree though that with Reinforce in its current state, it's hard to justify the exp cost in most campaigns. It isn't the easiest card to find an opportunity to use given all its new restrictions.

And even then, you have to take the randomness of the dice into account. I've personnaly played Descent one night when the number of X rolled on the blue die for ALL attacks that night was over 60% of the total rolls. It was NOT a good night to be a hero that night. (The OL also rolled a few legendary flubs that night, but nowhere

Oh I've had horrendous strings of "X's" with the best of em, so I know this pain well!

Part of the problem with the scenario I've outlined though is that it is not luck dependent. I bet if the Overlord rolled nothing but 'X's the entire quest, the heroes still wouldn't win this, as they just have too much ground to cover barring certain super mobile characters. And then they still have to take down multiple hybrid sentinels.

Now a quest that can be won on turn *6* is supposed to be broken? Don't you think the heroes could mess with your plans before you do so, maybe kill a couple of Sentinels, or even win the quest? What are your hero opponents doing usually, doodling around?

We complained when our OL won "The Wyrm Turns" on turn *2* that the quest was broken, maybe rightfully so. But a quest that can be won no earlier than turn 6 with an optimal strategy is definitely run-of-the-mill and needs no errata whatsoever.

I'm sorry, but this is just an ignorant post. You cannot possibly compare a quest like this to "The Wyrm Turns". It is apples and oranges. Quests vary hugely in size and complexity in this game and some quests are specifically designed to take 8-10+ turns for either side to complete. This is one of them.

Argggghhh !!! /BEGIN RANT

One of the things that surprises me with the majority of posts made within this forum, is the mistaken belief that each and every quest/encounter must be perfectly balanced. Both sides must have an exact 50-50 chance of winning.

Woah, relax :-)

Now how the hell am I suppose to get a good RANT going, if you just go and tell me to take a chill pill and relax?

I realize that you are a regular player, and regular poster. I think my rant was more for others that tend to latch on to someone else's analysis and then run with it. It becomes a "game is unbalanced, object is OP, etc.". Just trying to stop that before it starts.

I think you found a very good strategy. I think you should use it, punish your heroes, laugh in their face, and tell them there is a reason you are called "OVERLORD". Mwahh hahh haa ha ha ...

I was just searching for some info about this quest (I will play as Overlord tomorrow) and found out this thread. What bothers me, instead of sneaky way to win for Overlord, is potential for stalemate in this quest. If I understood this quest text correctly, without reinforcements and without "Reinforce" card Overlord can collect only 3 fatigue tokens (in 4 heroes game), thus if heroes won't search for hidden key Overlord will never be able to win this quest. Do I understand correctly?

I was just searching for some info about this quest (I will play as Overlord tomorrow) and found out this thread. What bothers me, instead of sneaky way to win for Overlord, is potential for stalemate in this quest. If I understood this quest text correctly, without reinforcements and without "Reinforce" card Overlord can collect only 3 fatigue tokens (in 4 heroes game), thus if heroes won't search for hidden key Overlord will never be able to win this quest. Do I understand correctly?

On the second turn, the hybrids that are still alive could equip themselves again (I need to actually look at the quest guide.) As long as you have hybrids available, you can win. If you're wondering "if the heroes kill all my hybrids and kill them when they reinforce, will I lose?" Yes, of course you will.

The problem lies in the fact that Hybrids in order to give Overlord fatigue tokens must move off the map. Thus, without reinforcements, Overlord will always be 1 fatigue token short of winning, unless heroes will open locked door and enable Overlord to reinforce with another hybrids.

The problem lies in the fact that Hybrids in order to give Overlord fatigue tokens must move off the map. Thus, without reinforcements, Overlord will always be 1 fatigue token short of winning, unless heroes will open locked door and enable Overlord to reinforce with another hybrids.

Ah, ok. I didn't realize that the reinforcements were behind the locked door. I'll look at my quest guide later today and get back to you. It's possible that there is actually a stalemate situation. If there is though, stalemates only ever benefit the OL. He can draw all of his cards and then absolutely punish the heroes whenever they finally decide to let the quest move forward.

The problem is what if players decide to never search for the key - it means that Quest will never end because as Overlord you have no way to win without players move. Also because I play this quest as mini campaign finale it is pretty bad spot to know that heroes can force a draw.

In all other quests that I read Overlord can win without players intervention, but not in this one- it is pretty big flaw if u ask me.

The problem is what if players decide to never search for the key - it means that Quest will never end because as Overlord you have no way to win without players move. Also because I play this quest as mini campaign finale it is pretty bad spot to know that heroes can force a draw.

In all other quests that I read Overlord can win without players intervention, but not in this one- it is pretty big flaw if u ask me.

I understand your issue- I'm going to check the quest guide to see if there's a way around it. My point is that even if the quest can't end unless the heroes search for the key, there is no such thing as "forcing a draw" in Descent. Neither side can forfeit, and the map won't end until the heroes search for the key, and one party or another wins. So, even if your reading of the rules is correct, the heroes will merely be delaying the inevitable- the door must open. If they've allowed a large number of turns to pass, it will only be to their disadvantage, since the OL will have drawn most or all of his deck into his hand, and reinforced his entire group of hybrid sentinels.

It is a quest design flaw, but really if the heroes try something like that I think they're just being sore losers.

Yes, if they leave it locked forever the OL can't win by RAW, but earn turn that passes only worsens their tactical situation.

Furthermore, if they considered the thematic elements even a little they'd realize that what they're doing makes no sense. This is Valyndra's locked fortress. If the heroes refuse to invade then she has all the time in the world to use her Hybrids to collect and move the Aurium Wargear through the back exit. Not very heroic!

I do agree that an errata might help though.. perhaps something like

"Hybrid Sentinels may move through locked doors as if they weren't a locked door."

and

"After a locked door has been opened, OR t he first time there are no Hybrid Sentinels on the map , the Overlord may place a damage token near the Overlord deck to indicate that he may now receive reinforcements."

There is a precedent for the first statement from "What's Yours is Mine", and they probably would have written it in if they had considered this problem when designing the quest.

Embir, yes. RAW, the OL can't win before the heroes find the key. However, the heroes can't win either. If the heroes want to sit outside the fortress, the OL can just draw his entire deck, and he can be 1 fatigue token from winning. As long as the OL moves Valyndra up toward the door on the ruins, once the heroes give up and decide to find the key, the hybrid that spawns can make it off the map (using the 2 dash cards the OL will have) in 3 turns with a 4th wargear. The OL just needs to be able to protect Valyndra and/or defeat the heroes, which he'll be able to do with his frenzy cards, dark might, dark fortune, and trap cards, not to mention any nonbasic cards and plot cards he may have. Stalling is not a good strategy for the heroes.

I totally agree with the comment above.

How could be a quest won in 6 turns be broken ???

Anyway, well geared heroes will only need up to 4-5 turns to kill valindra

*facepalm* I am sorry, but you obviously have not played this quest if you think 4-5 turns is enough to even reach Valyndra, let alone kill her.

Yes we played it. And maybe it takes a little more, but we managed to kill valyndra before any draconian manages to go out. Maybe it was the OL fault not to keep valyndra sitting down near the exit. But with the free actions our team had (syndrael,jain,kellen feats, treasure hunter and apotecary free atacks) smart usage of fatigue potions, necro undead multi atack, ballista moving poor valyndra to us and the ******* aawesome maximiced atack of the treasure hunter (8-14 dmg plus pierce 4 x attack...) trust me is doable

So when do you play it? I mean was it at the beginning of act 2 or closer to a final? I mean, that quest seems to be quite hard for OL (though I think it's relatively easy to win Encounter 1. We're gonna play this quest soon and I'm planning to win interlude and then force heroes to go there asap when they have no act2 items.

First half of second act.

If you manage to play it before any other act two quest, you could have a chance. Just remember to try keep valyndra safe

Now a quest that can be won on turn *6* is supposed to be broken? Don't you think the heroes could mess with your plans before you do so, maybe kill a couple of Sentinels, or even win the quest? What are your hero opponents doing usually, doodling around?

We complained when our OL won "The Wyrm Turns" on turn *2* that the quest was broken, maybe rightfully so. But a quest that can be won no earlier than turn 6 with an optimal strategy is definitely run-of-the-mill and needs no errata whatsoever.

I'm sorry, but this is just an ignorant post. You cannot possibly compare a quest like this to "The Wyrm Turns". It is apples and oranges. Quests vary hugely in size and complexity in this game and some quests are specifically designed to take 8-10+ turns for either side to complete. This is one of them.

Pardon my ignorance, but I'd sure like to know which quests are designed to take over 8 rounds. I make a write-up of all the quests we play (I also take pictures, which allow me to turn them into small stories), and the only encounter in which we reached round 8 was the first part of Reclamation. I couldn't find any where we reached round 7, and then we had quite a few where we reached round 6.

We never reached round 9 or 10, ever.