I wanted to get people opinions about this... Have people found Bind to be a satisfying power choice for PCs in there groups?

Does it accomplish what you want it to?

Is it effective in it's realm?

Does it stand up as a choice to the other combat oriented force powers, Not just in damage, but in overall effect?

Has Bind been taken by a PC in your group?

In our group, we have found Bind to be a less than compelling choice as a force power. We found the power of minimal use, being nice, but generally a waste of actions, until the mastery upgrade was selected. Once the mastery upgrade was taken, the power becomes almost too good, both for light and dark characters.

I'm curious to see what impressions others have had of the power at the table, and if it feels satisfying as written for pcs.

EDIT: I suppose I should have clarified, I mean for PCs to purchase with xp and use in play over several sessions. I'm not looking for one off NPC use, but as an established part of a PC character, is Bind a satisfying use of XP.

I'm going to be using it on my players tomorrow...I'll let you know the results

I find it's useful as more of an intimidation power than any sort of direct-damage/DPS effect.

I used Bind with a few upgrades for an Imperial Dark Jedi NPC during a FaD session, and the fact that with a single gesture he was able to inflict three wounds on the target as well as apply setback dice and negate the ability to use maneuvers went pretty far to underline that this guy was a serious threat to the party, as much if not more so than his drawing and igniting a red-bladed lightsaber.

I find it's useful as more of an intimidation power than any sort of direct-damage/DPS effect.

I used Bind with a few upgrades for an Imperial Dark Jedi NPC during a FaD session, and the fact that with a single gesture he was able to inflict three wounds on the target as well as apply setback dice and negate the ability to use maneuvers went pretty far to underline that this guy was a serious threat to the party, as much if not more so than his drawing and igniting a red-bladed lightsaber.

This. The point is that one need neither upset the perfect creases in one's haute couture nor develop an unslightly perspiration on the brow in order to put lesser beings in their proper place -- the universe does it for you. It's symbolic.

I suppose I should have clarified, I mean for PCs to purchase with xp and use in play over several sessions. I'm not looking for one off NPC use, but as an established part of a PC character, is Bind a satisfying use of XP.

My mistake for not being more specific.

It's going to depend ultimately on what the PC wants out of the power. You could ask the same question about any of the Force powers and get very different answers.

if they want to simply inflict damage, then no, it's not a satisfying use of XP, as there are better options if the only thing you're after is damage output. From a lot of your posts on the topic, it seems much of your focus is on how Bind is of less use than Harm or Unleash simply based upon it's sub-par damage output. Maybe that's not your intent, but that's very much the impression you're giving on this.

But for a PC that's generally trying to stay on the light side and wants a way to limit the effectiveness of their opponents in combat without dealing damage (I know this may be a foreign concept to some types of players), then Bind can be quite satisfying since it makes one or more opponents less effective in a fight. The lack of a maneuver can mean the target doesn't get to Aim or draw a new weapon or even get within attacking range, and the Strength Upgrades means that even if the target does get to attack, they're adding a setback die as well as possibly taking strain equal to the user's Willpower if the Control Upgrade was activated. Use it on a BBEG that your party is not equipped to fight, and the fact he's stuck at his current location makes getting away a lot easier, or at the very least gives the party a significant head start. Heck, the Control Upgrade to change the target's current range band in relation to you is quite helpful in either pulling the target into range of your party's melee experts (useful of the target isn't suited for melee combat) or keeping an NPC melee monster away from the party so that the ranged experts can pick them off.

In short, it's the difference between wanting to play a "blaster caster" (D&D wizard that focuses on damage-dealing spells) or a "control caster" (D&D wizard that focuses on battlefield control and utility). One style is very flashy, the other relies more on planning and being a support role to the group's success in an encounter. Some players are going to lean towards the former because it's flashy and deals lots of damage (though the community at large sees this as being a waste of what a wizard is truly capable of), others will prefer the later for the sense of control it provides over their enemies.

Did I forground this question with a question of "do you think Bind does enough damage?" No. The questions I asked are inquiriies into what people wanted out of the power, how has it met the expectations, etc.

I asked is it satisfying. Maybe you should let other people answer, or actually answer the question. Not just try and answer for others.

Here's question one, has anyone in your group as a PC taken Bind?

I don't think I have genuinely made that suggestion in a long time. instead, I've argued that it should have it's control options expanded, made more effective, and not be one dimensional as the immobilize/stagger combo can generate.

From a lot of your posts on the topic, it seems much of your focus is on how Bind is of less use than Harm or Unleash simply based upon it's sub-par damage output. Maybe that's not your intent, but that's very much the impression you're giving on this.

Actually most of my posts are about how I think Harm is still too strong and over shadows this, how I think three strength upgrades to disorient a target is overkill, and (per the original post) that the mastery upgrade is VERY effective (causing a different kind of dissatisfaction with our Bind player.

If you can provide a genuine, semi recent quote (aka from september on) that actually says I think Bind should deal more damage outright, then let me know. otherwise, just let a curiosity put out to the community live or die on it's own merit, and stop trying to brow beat some one who you don't even read their posts.

Why, so you can continue to claim that I don't read your posts or that I'm taking what you've said out of context? Not really any point, since you'll just keep on doing the same no matter what examples I waste my time digging out. And given the 'tude, I'm really inclined to actually not read your posts and put them in the same category of "crap to be ignored" right alongside ErikB/Sylpheed and evileeyore back when those two trolls were haunting these forums. At least that way you can actually be correct when you accuse me of not bothering to read your posts.

As for the players in my ongoing campaign, only one of them qualifies at the moment to take Bind, and he's got zero interest in doing so because he's already got the two Force powers he wants that fit his concept (Gand Findsman using Seeker/Hunter), those being Foresee and Seek; for him, none of the other Force powers are a "satisfying" investment of XP because they don't fit within his concept.

I've got one player that's expressed an interest in eventually taking Bind simply for the image of the iconic Force choke (and wiling to accept the Conflict that would come from doing so), but he's taking the long way towards increasing his Force rating at the moment, and he may well change his mind down the road. If Bind had a requirement of only Force Rating 1, he might have taken it already, or he might not, as he's one of those players that advances his character based off the events of the prior sessions instead the "plan my PC build out to the next 100/300/500 XP" type of players.

I've run some test sessions with various Knight-level PCs, and in the couple that had a Consular/Sage with the Bind power, it proved quite useful from the player's perspective without ever doing anything more than inflicting setback dice for multiple rounds or limiting the target (who was built as a melee monster) to just an action on their turn, particularly when the Sage wasn't in melee range. But then said player is of the type that enjoys playing control-based casters who dish out various status conditions and debuffs. It even proved useful against the BFG-wielding guilded bounty hunter simply for the setback dice along with forcing the hunter to stay at medium range and have to deal with cover as well as suffer strain if they wanted to use their Action (which being a Rival meant taking wounds). The only concern raised was that in a one-on-one confrontation such as those used in the test sessions, relying on Bind tends to draw out an encounter, particularly if the target is a Nemesis with their own strain threshold... which is what tends to happen with any kind of predominantly support power in just about any RPG.

So to repeat my earlier answer to your question of "is Bind a satisfying power for PCs?" that you've glossed over, it depends on the player and the character they have in mind. If they want to limit the options and effectiveness of their opponents via the Force, then yes Bind is a satisfying power for the XP. If a PC wants straight-up damage output, then Bind won't be a satisfying power for the XP. If a PC wants Force powers to be a minimal aspect of the character and preferring more subtle effects like Enhance, Foresee, or Sense, then all of the other powers, from Bind to Protect/Unleash to Heal/Harm to Move are not going to be satisfying powers for the XP regardless of their utility to other players.

As for the players in my ongoing campaign, only one of them qualifies at the moment to take Bind, and he's got zero interest in doing so because he's already got the two Force powers he wants that fit his concept (Gand Findsman using Seeker/Hunter), those being Foresee and Seek; for him, none of the other Force powers are a "satisfying" investment of XP because they don't fit within his concept.

I've got one player that's expressed an interest in eventually taking Bind simply for the image of the iconic Force choke (and wiling to accept the Conflict that would come from doing so), but he's taking the long way towards increasing his Force rating at the moment, and he may well change his mind down the road. If Bind had a requirement of only Force Rating 1, he might have taken it already, or he might not, as he's one of those players that advances his character based off the events of the prior sessions instead the "plan my PC build out to the next 100/300/500 XP" type of players.

I've run some test sessions with various Knight-level PCs, and in the couple that had a Consular/Sage with the Bind power, it proved quite useful from the player's perspective without ever doing anything more than inflicting setback dice for multiple rounds or limiting the target (who was built as a melee monster) to just an action on their turn, particularly when the Sage wasn't in melee range. But then said player is of the type that enjoys playing control-based casters who dish out various status conditions and debuffs. It even proved useful against the BFG-wielding guilded bounty hunter simply for the setback dice along with forcing the hunter to stay at medium range and have to deal with cover as well as suffer strain if they wanted to use their Action (which being a Rival meant taking wounds). The only concern raised was that in a one-on-one confrontation such as those used in the test sessions, relying on Bind tends to draw out an encounter, particularly if the target is a Nemesis with their own strain threshold... which is what tends to happen with any kind of predominantly support power in just about any RPG.

The above is interesting and the kind of thing I was looking for when I asked the question in the first place. given your own examples, in actual campaign play, no one has taken it. that isn't really indicative of anything, but it is interesting to know. The power not fitting the concept is a certainly a valid reason not to take it.

If I was trolling, or seeking self validation, I wouldn't have asked this question, as most people don't seem to think Bind is lacking. I asked because I was genuinely interested to see (in a non-statistical and purely self selecting way) if other groups have had campaign characters taking Bind, and how satisfying the choice was, to see some other view points.

So to repeat my earlier answer to your question of "is Bind a satisfying power for PCs?" that you've glossed over, it depends on the player and the character they have in mind. If they want to limit the options and effectiveness of their opponents via the Force, then yes Bind is a satisfying power for the XP. If a PC wants straight-up damage output, then Bind won't be a satisfying power for the XP. If a PC wants Force powers to be a minimal aspect of the character and preferring more subtle effects like Enhance, Foresee, or Sense, then all of the other powers, from Bind to Protect/Unleash to Heal/Harm to Move are not going to be satisfying powers for the XP regardless of their utility to other players.

Part of why I ask as well (bold emphasis mine) is because I have a player that found move very unsatisfying, despite it being part of his concept. I don't think he realized, fully, how the force in this system worked, so he came away from his character (this was in an edge campaign) pretty unsatisfied with his choice. When the rebellion beta finished up, we started a different campaign, and he was much happier with an infiltrator concept with enhance.

I had another player that back in our edge campaign wanted to be a sort of vibro blade samurai. he took sense and thought that he would love it, being that his character concept was that he didn't realize he was using the force. He liked it ok, but in the end he found it unsatisfying because it felt almost like a meta-addition to his character. Force for the sake of force, even though it was part of his concept. In the rebellion game, he instead took a diplomat with influence, and was much happier, even though he had the same "I use the force but don't know it's the force" concept.

Just because a power "fits a concept" doesn't mean that it will be satisfying. Expectations vs actual play experience over a campaign is something else, and some times if that can be articulated, it can help one find the root of their dissatisfaction.

Today's session was...odd. One of my PCs (a Bothan Spy) encountered a fallen Jedi on Dxun, who attacked her in a crazed state. It's part of a larger mystery arc that I've just started.

My plan was to have the Jedi be directing a zakkeg to do his bidding (Animal Bond), but the other two PCs had decided to ditch the Bothan, even though they knew she was in trouble, due to some perceived slight in a previous session. That's a separate issue that I'm going to have to deal with...but to the matter at hand...

I sent an allied NPC after the Bothan right after she disappeared, which ended up meaning that she had to last two rounds with this crazed Jedi. She ended up running, ducking a vicious lightsaber swing before climbing up a nearby tree. But then it got real when the Jedi grabbed the Bothan with the Bind power, dangling her several feet above the ground. He only rolled one black pip, so it was just 1 wound for the time being. It was clear that he was just toying with her.

Then the allied NPC, a beast rider, came crashing through the jungle canopy on his ruping. He flew for the dark Jedi, but the Jedi brought his lightsaber up to ward off the ruping and precluded the attack. The Bothan fired her blaster at the Jedi, but he handily deflected it. He then used the Move Power to bring the Bothan down to the ground, which I ruled to cause her to take falling damage (which she mitigated with a Triumphant Coordination roll). The beast rider attempted to engage the Jedi, but again he was too quick, and the lightsaber met the wooden spear, slicing it in half. However, rolling quickly to her feet, the Bothan lashed out in a frenzy and sliced off the Jedi's saber-wielding hand in one quick motion (excellent critical roll). The Jedi then slammed her against the nearby tree with the Move power and again tried to focus his attention on the beast rider.

The Bothan pretended to be unconscious, but once the attention was on her beast rider ally, she snuck up behind the Jedi and stabbed him in the stomach. He used the Bind power on both the beast rider and the Bothan for one more round, crushing their wind pipes, before the Bothan struck with all her might, slitting the crazy human's throat and ending his grip on the both of them.

Later recounting of the story to the rest of the party was met with disbelief, then with grudging belief after being shown the lightsaber, and then with amazement when the two told about being choked and lifted off the ground.

The Bind power really did everything it needed to do. My players loved it, even though they weren't the ones using it.

The Bothan pretended to be unconscious, but once the attention was on her beast rider ally, she snuck up behind the Jedi and stabbed him in the stomach. He used the Bind power on both the beast rider and the Bothan for one more round, crushing their wind pipes, before the Bothan struck with all her might, slitting the crazy human's throat and ending his grip on the both of them.

The Bind power really did everything it needed to do. My players loved it, even though they weren't the ones using it.

That's cool that the player/s enjoyed the experience.. that really is the goal.

The bolded part, what was the actual game effect of crushing the wind pipe? Was it a crit with mastery, or a large damage activation, or some other aspect?

"Crushing their wind pipes" was the Wounds inflicted by Force pips, 1 per. The fallen Jedi took some strain to use some white pips for Force points at that juncture, in addition to the 1 black pip he rolled. The Bothan had already sustained a good amount of damage from the Move attack, so it didn't stretch credulity much to narrate that she was "at the brink."

Also, the Bothan player took 4 strain to make the last Melee attack. I forgot to inflict the 4 strain for the earlier blaster attack

it happens.

Ok. Just wanted to know if the mastery upgrade was being used or not.

it happens.

Ok. Just wanted to know if the mastery upgrade was being used or not.

Yeah, no I didn't even give him the Mastery upgrade. Didn't feel quite right...yet....

...mwahahaha....mwhahahaha!!!

Did you do opposed checks for the uses of Bind?

The first one I did, because the Jedi pulled the Bothan off the tree she was trying to climb. But he other time he just made a straight power check.

Good call. It's up to the GM when/if he allows resistance rolls, and you stopped allowing them once their justification (holding on to a tree --> opposed check vs. Athletics) had fallen away.

I think Bind can be very dramatic for the feeling of being at another character's mercy. That's why it's one of the few force powers where I occasionally* disallow opposed rolls to resist, because it increases the dramatic tension.

*I reserve the right to be perfectly inconsistent...

Saw bind in use in our previous session. The PC just has the main power, even still he liked it...ended up using it to flee an Emperor's Hand. I made this an opposed discipline roll since both were force users. He did end up taking some conflict to activate the power once, but all in all quite useful as 2 uses of bind kept him out of range and allowed for a fast retreat on a waiting swoop.

Saw bind in use in our previous session. The PC just has the main power, even still he liked it...ended up using it to flee an Emperor's Hand. I made this an opposed discipline roll since both were force users. He did end up taking some conflict to activate the power once, but all in all quite useful as 2 uses of bind kept him out of range and allowed for a fast retreat on a waiting swoop.

Yeah, Bind really shines in its stopping power. The wounds/critical injuries are really just icing on the cake

Exactly, he plans on taking the control upgrade that deals strain damage equal to his willpower if the target takes an action....Being a consular with 5 willpower that will definately ensure it stays viable.