Oh I full expect to get thumped around by ya this Sunday Kin if you play JT lol. They're good games that require a lot of thought which is nice. It's good to see that ya threw in the Soul Fist and Darkness Blade's, as it gives more threats for yer opponent to look for than just Spike.

Talbain does fun things. So much that it's basic when you get right down to it. So much that I might build it XD.

You never have to symbol chain, except when, on the rare occassion, you need to block. A Talbain deck is the perfect example of a deck that you don't build based on his symbols-you build him based on whatever cards you need (of course those cards still need to share symbols).

Now, of course you can say oh well what about blocking what do you do if you cant symbol chain. well, if you look at the things his three symbols have access to, you'll notice that there's some redux and life gain packed in there (most noticeable Battle Prowess) . Plus, the assets you play are the aspect of the deck where symbol chaining occurs,

Seriously, it's so easy to build a great b3 Talbain deck. The problem is that a lot of people don't realize this. Like i said-look for the things you need, do NOT make symbol chaining on foundations your top priority (though you will find that this will happen in some cases). also, remember the dude gets an alba effect-so that deck can be stacked up a bit if your heart so desires. I think Goo's world's deck was around 80 cards or something.

Throw in some momentum gen for Spike (which is the easiest and best kill condition for him come b3). Defender is nice but I don't think is necessary. Get your damage redux/life gain. FoF for shenanigans, then just fill up the rest of your deck slots with what you need.

Also, another fun thing to remember, that in an EXTREMELY unorthodox deck like Talbain, you can have EXTREMELY unorthodox ratios. Think back to Omar's nats winning deck. Look at some of the card ratios for the deck. Looks strange, but it's actually pure genius. Need only one or two of a certain foundation? Go ahead, put one or two in. Doet.

And a big BIG thing that he has, something that i look at as his biggest pro that was not mentioned:

His Foundations are pretty much immune to CC Hax

Those BRTs and Forethoughts are going to be sitting there waiting for the Spikes to come flying. By that time, you'll be screwed by the fact that you have all you need on your board to shut those down.

I'm interested now. I;m gonna go make a deck list.

I'm going to go ahead and post the core of my deck that i have been messing with since spinning beat was revealed:

Talbain
4 x Ocladans
4 x Natural Leader
4 x Budddhist Devotion
4 x Lynette's Shop
4 x Seal of Cessation
4 x Lord of the Makai
4 x Tag along
4 x chesters backings
4 x Bitter Rivals
4 x Feline Spikes
4 x Soul of Ling-Sheung Su
4 x Shooting Capoeras
1 x Giradots Leadership
1 x Pigeon Games
3 x Rejection
3 x Side Harp
3 x Spinning Beat

have fun with that. Buddhist devotion alone can drop you natural leader and bitter or somethign and then all you need to to play spike for the win against some people.

Why the Side Harpes?

Multiple one for spinnign beat to be playable on the split side with decent numbers. Assets are useful for talbain just to fill the discard pile with control checks sometimes, and E commit: +3 speed for the first spike is pretty ok in my book.

to be honest i don't see the need for both spike and spinning beat-in a deck that can turtle out like talbain, i'd say the only attack you need is spike.

But then again, it's all a matter of opinion. There are so many different ways you can build a working Talbain.

Protoaddict said:

I was wondering, and this might be a dumb question, but...

Wasn't it mentioned at one point that, after a Multiple copy resolves, it becomes a blank card? Thus not counting for the requisite number of attacks for Spinning Beat (because it specifies attacks, as opposed to say Ultimate Volcano which only mentioned another card before it)

Homme Chapeau said:

I think your way off on this. Multiples dont have printed values, that much hasent changed but they are absolutley still attacks and never become "just blank cards".

Wait...doesn't spinning beat say it has to have two non-multiple attacks preceeding it?

HolyDragonCloud said:

i think it was non-throws *runs to look the pic*

right, non throws. i knew it was something.

JT was and still is highly OVERrated. His game is simple and easy to pick apart. With the loss of Addes, along with the release of more asset control, he loses alot of what made running worthwhile.

All you have to do is play his game, hold out on the foundations, and play out your assets. This won me my match against him at Worlds, and I guarantee you that it will win yours.

The issue, for me, isn't so much that he's unplayable against, but the fact that he breaks NEARLY every rule this game has in place to limit degenerate card interaction.

His static ability allows for you to get around the need to necessarily build off of one symbol, allows you to mill at a slower rate than opponent (since you don't really want to play cards pretty much), and allows you to play cards on your opponent's turn.

Not to mention that he draws cards at a degenerate speed due to the same power, and can feasibly grip more cards than most characters can hope to.

Let's face it, his power actually goes against the general thing that you must do to win a card game: Play cards.

His ability allows you to get around your cards being able to be countered, in the fact that they are not really being played, so any CC Hax (for the most part as close as this game gets to card negation), or any reactions to "when a card is played" are fairly useless against Mr. Wolf, except for the assets that he will inevitably run. So, the only chance you will get to use these are when the Talbain player is looking to kill you anyway, or when they are playing their green cards.

Elena and Yun Seong still required that you actually play cards in the way, and for the cost, that the game requires you to. Talbain gets around this.

It's my opinion that he should be banned, not so much because he has already dominated in a tournament scene or anything in that manner, but for the fact that he breaks so many fundamental rules of the game that he will, if not soon, be eventually exploited to nearly the extent that Hugo was.

(i'd like to point out that i didn't even go into a discussion about symbols or his health, both of which only make his restriction busting abilities even worse of an idea)

I've always looked at Talbain and thought about playing him, but his playstyle is extremely odd, and from looking at other people's decks, difficult to get your head around. I mainly thought about runnning purely because Yoga Adept is nasty with him (You don't get a foundation, but I do?!) I wouldn't say that he needs to go by any means. I very much like that he changes the pace of the game, as it makes him a very unique character. I don't like, however, how he changes the game so much that he forces the player at the other end of the table to play the way he does. It does warp the game mechanics somewhat. Don't get me wrong, I've always found it's great fun to play against a good Talbain deck, as I believe it makes you think in ways you don't normally do in order to face off against him well. If anything, I think there should be more characters like him in the sense that they make you think differently about how to play the game. It would mean that a truly well built deck would be able to tackle any of these situations. Characters like Talbain3, Sagat1, M. Bison1 etc are what makes my world go round

What makes me laugh is that theres always a character to complain about. And it shifts almost all the time. Come to think of it, I don't think I remeber hearing any complaints about Ibuki recently. I mean, she was THE character to run once upon a time, and when the buzz wore down about her, it turned to Alex. And now boredom has ensued on his part, so apparantly now it's Talbain's turn. At least when Cassandra was complained about it was consistent. Tira broke the game mechanic of blocking. So did Tycho. Even Sagat did something unique with his damage output once upon a time. (Anyone remember taking 11-14 damage turn 2 by a repeated Glass Slippers? That hurt.) It's gotten to the point now where I begin to wonder who the next character up for the stand. As much as I think it's fine that people don't like some of the characters for whatever reason, I mean, people are more than entitled to their own opinion, but I do hope that bannings/erratas are EXTREMELY well thought out before they issued (which I assume they are, as otherwise we would have had a lot more of them by now), lest we end up with no characters left!

Havoc said:

I cant help but feel that this statment violently understates things. What assets are you playing out to play his game? Ocaladans is uesless unless a foundation hits the table, as is lynettes.Valerias will accelerate your assets base but you still cant play foundations less he get one.

Your also making the assumpiton that your otherwise viable deck would have so many assets to play. I would say that playing talbains game is more along the lines of using ibuki, playing 2 foundations and letting him play out his 2, and then infiltrating using her ability to pass the check. But then again she can play that game, who else can?

Havoc said:

In this years tournament scene JT can and will be in pretty much every top cut , and has already top-cutted in pretty much every major tournament where he was legal. If your playing the right kind of deck, you have a chance, if your not, he's practically a auto-loss, and there is no such thing as a good matchup with JT.

Viewtiful_Joe said:

I don't totally disagree with this, but I was never on 90% of those ban wagons, Yes Cassie/Zas/Dhal and Hugo all needed to go. Ibuki was a product of her era, she wasn't neccessarily the problem so much as the perfect blend of cards came out around her(block 2's evil base) to make her nearly unstoppable, Ibuki brought home the MWCC and Can Nats, then got banned and still managed to take home Worlds 2008. Tira I never loved but never felt ban worthy, Tycho never bothered me, Sagat I always thought was good for the game even, Alex is a bit of a tweener because in the block 3 era chars are weaker then they were in the other banned chars heyday and he needs to show some sort of dominance over everyone else before he can really be taken seriously as a bannable char. JT tho is a all new kind of problem, Cassie/Zas/Hugo/Dhal all didn't let you play the game really, they took the game out of your hands. Ibuki just played the game better then everyone else on such a level it was banworthy. JT forces the opponent to play his game or die trying, you can still attempt to play the way you would normally play against anyone else, but the odds of success are super stacked against you. The closest comparision would be someone like donovan, who also forces you to play his game, but his ability is targetable/negateable, meaning there is counters you can play for him, JT has no counter.

How come no one has mentioned discard? If Talbain has no cards in hand he can't do his thing as well.

Just a thought.

it might bu underrated.. but The Beat Whitin protect him pretty much. and talbain got 2 action cards that give him moon tokens. So, if you got bad luck once, you're pretty scewed

i just read the post and i thought it was a very interesting theory that JT would be a porblem in block 3 which i would have to disagree. the reason i picked Jt because of his ability to shave damage and place foundations into the staging area without having to worry about control hacks. I believe control hack is getting out of hand as of current even in block 3. the reason he's really playable at the time is because everything that currently good is on the all symbol and even now the water symbol make him unreal. i made to the top only because no one saw it coming until after teams, i lost at the top 8 because their certain cards i left out that i did'nt have to assist me better.

I want to just say one more thing like any character has a flaw and a bad matchup. this is why people need to take it into consideration that when your playing a specific symbol and you don't add that very card in your deck that you know has alot of answers to your problems it's your fault for being a bad player. IGNORE THE 60 CARD DECK RULE this is not yugioh so your cards that you want to draw come up faster which more then likely for you to be deck out quickly.

Goo said:

This thread gets locked Monday. Just a heads up.

Tagrineth said:

lolwat. is there something we can do overhere? i tought (even if there are the forbidden "ban" word in here) it was a cards discussion

aslum said:

Ineffective in B3 yet. The only solid discard card is The Ways of Punishment, and not only does that require an attack, it also strips you of your hand. Jivatma cannot be used on your opponent's turn, The Glare of the Abyss will cost you two committals and can only be used on your attack, hell, all traditional discard is E only. Alternative discard MAY be a solution but I wouldn't throw my weight behind that. Honestly I don't know why it's being brought up. Only viable thing discard can do right now is prevent blocking/reversing/selective.

Captain Ren said:

This isn't the place for ban discussion. This should've been PMed to Paul or James, if anything.