Rexler Brath - Push the Limit

Colonel Vessery - Veteran Instincts

Captain Yorr

....worth it?

It can work and put out some terrific damage, but only against non-arc-dodging lists. And falcons and outriders and phantoms and even decimators are run as arc dodgers.

If you run ptl on Brath, give him an engine upgrade so his green straight still allows him to face the enemy.

I can't help but be disappointed that the two named defender pilots have abilities without synergie. Rex wants to take focus, and Vas wants someone target locking for him. I'd almost say FF missed a trick on this one, It would be so awesome if they gelled, but try as I might with upgrades I cant get past that fundamental conflict As a side note, perhaps IG-88 will provide the big game hunting pair that these two cant quite become, if there are four abilities to chose from there has to be a couple of killer combos.

The biggest reason Rex and Vess don't gel is their PS. Even if Rex TLs, you don't want to use it.

Also, since Rex shoots early, you often need to hold that focus for defense, or at least consider it.

That said, I really like both of them, I just feel a bit like their abilities/

PS are flipped.

I think that you guys are looking at it backwards. Braths ability has never triggered for me. And especially in this instance it's not his ability that you utilize it's his PS8. People had said before and I agree that brath and Vessery both get their abilities for 0 points. They are both cost just for their stats and pilot skill in progression from the generics. Baths ability while nice is not a key to any list, it's an added benefit that may trigger.

That being said I use brath more than Vessery and I have never had the chance to spend the focus for flipping damage. I usually just get overkill.

I think they are at appropriate points costs and PS level, and I want to see more unique Defender pilots in the future.

I'm not arguing about their costs. I'm saying that there would be more synergy and use with their abilities or PS flipped. But one of the reasons you don't worry about Brath's ability in term of cost is that it would actually be more useful on a ship with a lower PS:)

It's very simple. If Vess were the PS 8 to start, you can actually make him a 10, which makes him a phantom counter since he really doesn't need a EPT other than VI. If Brath is at 6, he can use PTL and Focus. Vessery and Brath can both use the same TL. You're also likely to have more shields stripped with Vess going first, so Brath could make better use of his ability.

As it is now, with Brath at a higher PS, he can't use his own TL if you want Vess to use it. Also, since Brath really wants focus, you really need PTL on him with Vessery since focus is ideal for him (for reasons that go beyond his ability) This leaves you with two 8s in your entire list and vulnerable to a couple of key ships in the game that you're sure to face.

Bottom line is this: Vessery is suite to higher PS so that he can make use of lower PS ships target locks. Otherwise, higher PS ships have to choose between using the lock or saving it for themselves. Brath would be better able to use his ability in a list with higher PS ships since they both strip their shields and you have more knowledge about whether you need his focus for defense. At 8 or 10, most of the enemy squad (and your own) has yet to fire. This is what I mean when I say their abilities would be better flipped and lists with just the two of them would benefit from that as well. Not that they are currently awful but there's no way their current setup is less than ideal.

And, maybe that's on purpose, but it's still pretty clear difference in synergy. Saying we have it backwards implies that it's ideal in the current setup, but it's not really even close.

I see your point but I don't fully agree with it.

The next 4 months are going to do strange things to the PS bid which Vessery will benefit from. And while not what we are talking about here, Vessery has major synergy with Echo and Whisper. Throw FCS on the phantoms and weapons engineer and you'll have all sorts of choices for him to benefit from.

I think overall though Imperials are not intended to be overly synergistic. But my claim of you guys havin it backwards is wrong, I fail engrish...

No one's suggesting this is a tournament list it's just fun in a casual setting to test your piloting skills against superior numbers, there are plenty of hard counters.

If you do pair them up its with the understanding that vessery is going to do most of the damage as you will get three solid hits a turn and quite often four, however end game when shields are gone rexler May get to bring his ability into play.

But how many two small base ship lists are even semi viable?

Very few. Corran and Ebaht? Maybe?

really the ship would be loads better if its 2 slights were green. taht would probably be all it needed

No. Stress is hard to shed on a Defender as they only have green straights. You rarely go straight as a Defender after the first two turns.

...hence Captain Yorr. Why, hello Captain Yorr.

really the ship would be loads better if its 2 slights were green. taht would probably be all it needed

Why on earth would the ship need to be "loads better"? Who's saying it "needs" anything?

I think the defender is a great example of FFGs play testing, it's strong but not unbeatable, works with and without canons, and is a great fighter for late game matches where it's one on one that k turn becomes lethal.

I know some wanted 3366 to reflect the tie fighter version but that would of really been broken.

It's not an interceptor it works best at range but when things do get hairy and personal it's got the moves to cope.

No. Stress is hard to shed on a Defender as they only have green straights. You rarely go straight as a Defender after the first two turns.

...hence Captain Yorr. Why, hello Captain Yorr.

really the ship would be loads better if its 2 slights were green. taht would probably be all it needed

Why on earth would the ship need to be "loads better"? Who's saying it "needs" anything?

yorr is on my competitive list.

i am. im almost ready to give up and play a meta list. Its too expensive for most choices. And depending on your luck it can really suck, as the opponent is much more likely to be able to focus it because they have more ships than you can have with the costly defender and any other meta counters you need to add to compensate for taking a defender... such as soontir PTL, minimum 30.

No. Stress is hard to shed on a Defender as they only have green straights. You rarely go straight as a Defender after the first two turns.

...hence Captain Yorr. Why, hello Captain Yorr.

really the ship would be loads better if its 2 slights were green. taht would probably be all it needed

Why on earth would the ship need to be "loads better"? Who's saying it "needs" anything?

Well, for starters, it seems to need Yorr, as you yourself pointed...

Also, Vessery needs (in fact requires) external Target Locks to even work, and Brath needs extra Focus tokens or actions to have a decent chance of using its ability more than once in a blue moon.

Not to mention that it is perfectly arguable the need of equipping a cannon to justify its deployment over other options. And I won't even enter the debate about the need of equipping Engine Upgrade.

So, it seems to me that Defenders actually do need a lot of things...

i am. im almost ready to give up and play a meta list. Its too expensive for most choices. And depending on your luck it can really suck, as the opponent is much more likely to be able to focus it because they have more ships than you can have with the costly defender and any other meta counters you need to add to compensate for taking a defender... such as soontir PTL, minimum 30.

Well, if you're looking for a "one list beats all" affair, you're playing the wrong game. X-Wing is a balanced game - whatever build you go for, you'll find it can most likely dominate some lists but will face bad match ups against others. Must be really frustrating if you're a WAAC player, I guess, but a lot of fun for the rest of us.

As for "your opponent having more ships than you can", welcome to the Rebel world, where being outnumbered has been a thing since... well, since the Core Set was released. If you want to outnumber your opponent, make yourself a list of cheap, basic ships. Complaining that you can't outnumber your opponent when you're fielding powerful, elite ships with upgrades is a bit of a joke, really.

Well, for starters, it seems to need Yorr, as you yourself pointed...

Er, no, wrong I'm afraid. The Defender doesn't "need" Yorr - far from it. the build I proposed utilises Yorr, however, as you would have known if you'd followed the conversation from the start. That's a big difference, buddy.

So, it seems to me that Defenders actually do need a lot of things...

Well, a pilot (read: player) who understands their role and their abilities is usually a very good start.

Defenders actually "need" very little compared to many other ships in the game. Whisper "needs" VI and ACD. Almost all named Interceptors "need" Push the Limit. Y-Wings and HWKs "need" a turret. That's just off the top of my head - there's plenty more examples. So even if your point was correct (hint: it's not, naked Defenders are very effective as it is without piling on the points), it's hardly a legitimate criticism when a large proportion of ships in the game are in a similar situation.

No. Stress is hard to shed on a Defender as they only have green straights. You rarely go straight as a Defender after the first two turns.

...hence Captain Yorr. Why, hello Captain Yorr.

Also, Black Squadron Wingmen.

They fly beautifully with Defenders.

What's red on the Defender isn't on the Fighters, so they peel the stress off the defenders.

What's red on the Fighters isn't on the Defenders, so they peel the stress off of each other.

Try this list on for size:

2x Delta

+ Engine Upgrade

34 Each

2x Black Squadron

+ Wingman

16 Each

.-=::100::=-.

Also, Black Squadron Wingmen.

Boosh, yes, that works as well. Although I must note the main reason I had a "stress relief" mechanic in my list is due to the inclusion of PtL. Barring enemy attack effects, Defenders don't find themselves suffering from stress all that often.

Also, Black Squadron Wingmen.

Boosh, yes, that works as well. Although I must note the main reason I had a "stress relief" mechanic in my list is due to the inclusion of PtL. Barring enemy attack effects, Defenders don't find themselves suffering from stress all that often.

They're the first ship in the game with all 12 turn/bank options. Even at a low PS, with Engine Upgrade, they're high-mobility.

Not hypermobile. Not yet.

The Defender is truly an amazing ship that doesn't get much credit, unfortunately.

A lot of people complain about the dial, but the dial is pretty good - if you fly it like a Defender. The Defender just doesn't like to be used the way that most other ships in the game fly.

They want to be far away from the ship they are shooting at most of the time. That way they can use their cannons most effectively. They are the best cannon platforms in the game, after-all.

If a ship gets too close, it's time to get them out of dodge. But, they can still take a beating if they need to.

I personally like Ion Cannons best on my Defenders. Ion a ship, they k-turn behind it where you can't get shot and you can just lay into them with your primary.

Defenders are really, really good ships I just think it's going to take people a while to figure that out.

...The Defender just doesn't like to be used the way that most other ships in the game fly.

They want to be far away from the ship they are shooting at most of the time. That way they can use their cannons most effectively. They are the best cannon platforms in the game, after-all.

If a ship gets too close, it's time to get them out of dodge. But, they can still take a beating if they need to...

I agree with the above. Unfortunately, the computer games Tie Defender and the FFG Tie Defender are very different ships. It took me 3 months to come to the same conclusions that you did! The FFG T/D really likes fighting at Range 3, no knife fighting.

That being said, the lvl 1 and 3 T/Ds are still extremely bland for me for a 30 point ship; compare to 35 points for a scum firespray with elite slot, rear firing arc, and a passenger slot; customization options abound!