Just to throw in some Defender love. I played in a four person 200 vs 200 game last night. Rebels split their forces, so we rushed one side that was 3 E-wings. In the first pass, the Phantom was utterly destroyed. The Defender lived through a couple rounds of concentrated fire and took out 2 ships. It lived to the end.

More random defender love:

Finally got to play against a Tie Phantom list (Whisper, VI, Rebel Captive, Sensor Jammer) and named Tie Fighters for support.

I had Rexler Brath, Lone Wolf, Heavy Laser Cannon, x3 Alpha Tie Interceptors (lvl 1).

On turn 3 Rexler got Whisper at range 3 and delivered a perfect 4 hit volley which shredded the phantom. Rex blew up to a Tie Fighter but Whisper went under to a Tie Interceptor in the same turn. For its points, Whisper is the much better competitive choice but it was nice to see that Rexler can at least inflict some damage on the phantom!

There are still more durable ships in the absolute sense, and especially for the cost. 1 Defender takes slightly less hits to kill, on average, than 2 TIE Fighters.

I'd love to see how you come to this conclusion, MJ, because it's not been my experience at all, what with the Defender being less susceptible to critical hits. Are we looking at the TIE's being able to evade where the Defender can only focus?

I'm not doubting you, just interested in the reasoning.

Shields do in fact help the Defender's durability against critical hits, and that is taken into account.

The reason it takes slightly less shots to kill 1 TIE Defender vs 2 TIE Fighters (slightly - as in ~5% less), is because now you need 2 kill shots. Everytime you make a kill shot, the attacker has a chance to "waste" some extra hits compared to what the statistical average damage should be.

Think of it this way: if you had a super-TIE Fighter with a 2/3/6/0 stat line, would it take exactly twice as many shots to kill it as two TIE Fighters? No. It would take slightly less.

An extreme example: you have suffered 2 damage already. Now a TIE Phantom comes in and shoots your weakened ship at range 1, doing 4 damage.

Scenario 1: You have 2 TIE Fighters, one with 1 HP. The Phantom kills the one with 1 HP. You have 1 TIE Fighter remaining.

Scenario 2: You have 1 TIE Defender, with 3 hull and 1 shield. The TIE Phantom lays all 4 hits onto you, and the Defender is dead.

Oh. So we're talking overkill then.

And here I was anticipating some complex mathematical equation!

Overkill potential damage wasted is bigger than potential damage from crits with 3 shields. Basically.

Oh. So we're talking overkill then.

And here I was anticipating some complex mathematical equation!

Well... the derivation even by brute force calculation is not trivial, so I'll save you the pain of explaining the methodology for calculating the probability density functions.

Overkill potential damage wasted is bigger than potential damage from crits with 3 shields. Basically.

Pretty much. Although it will be somewhat dependant on what is shooting you. If you are only getting shot at by 2 attack TIE Fighters, then the potential for overkill is much lower. In general shields are worth around 15% more than hull according to my numbers.

And 2 TIE Fighters got 2 actions, so it's > 1 Defender's action.

But we can't think about it that way, as it is 2 very different ships !

Well... the derivation even by brute force calculation is not trivial, so I'll save you the pain of explaining the methodology for calculating the probability density functions.

And 2 TIE Fighters got 2 actions, so it's > 1 Defender's action.

But we can't think about it that way, as it is 2 very different ships !

Exactly like where i was duelling with jake using vessery, where with the defender i can k turn and use my action to boost my attack while getting myself out of his arc, the tie fighter could not and would need a green manoeuvre in the near future to lose the stress.

He is too easy to kill though. Just my honest opinion.

If Keyan was by himself then yes however it depends on how you run him. Biggs or with the crew slot mod adding c3po ups his survivability a great deal. He just has more options then a defender has imo. Plus you get the bump in pilot skill over a basic 2 ps defender.

Keyan's good, but you definitely have to make some special considerations for him. Defender's good. The green Koiogran 5 turn is really what scare's me. Could make me play Empire every once in a while.

He is too easy to kill though. Just my honest opinion.

If Keyan was by himself then yes however it depends on how you run him. Biggs or with the crew slot mod adding c3po ups his survivability a great deal. He just has more options then a defender has imo. Plus you get the bump in pilot skill over a basic 2 ps defender.

I like Keyan, but I think he is going to be a lot easier to isolate and destroy than a defender. So you have to build a squad around him. He also can get extremely expensive, even more so than a defender for a ship that, as cool as it is, is still easier to kill than a defender point for point.

With that said, if you run him, put a Chewie crew card instead of Creepio, since I doubt he will live long enough to make Creepio better.

He is too easy to kill though. Just my honest opinion.

If Keyan was by himself then yes however it depends on how you run him. Biggs or with the crew slot mod adding c3po ups his survivability a great deal. He just has more options then a defender has imo. Plus you get the bump in pilot skill over a basic 2 ps defender.

I like Keyan, but I think he is going to be a lot easier to isolate and destroy than a defender. So you have to build a squad around him. He also can get extremely expensive, even more so than a defender for a ship that, as cool as it is, is still easier to kill than a defender point for point.

With that said, if you run him, put a Chewie crew card instead of Creepio, since I doubt he will live long enough to make Creepio better.

Really you just get more bang for your buck with Keyan and actually comparing dice numbers Keyan comes out ahead of the defender. However if the defender used focus for defense his expected damage taken goes down dramatically. Also both Keyan and the lowest point defender which is 30 points is a third of your squad points so both scenarios your building around them. As far as isolating goes the defender is def more mobile as far as getting away quicker when in trouble however the bwing is more mobile close quarters. I can say however that I've played both and every time ive played as the defender he goes out quick whereas Keyan has lasted at least a few turns longer. Could be different playing styles and all kinds of other things but for me green dice have never been my friend haha so ive had better luck running lists with more hp/firepower over lists with more evade dice. Whatever works tho right? Certain lists and ships work better for how you play. That's cool your defenders were able to do well tho i just wish I could make them work for me haha just never had luck with them.

Given that a Defender is easier to hit than a TIE fighter, his mythical survivability is probably consequence of not being considered a primary target, rather than being truly "survivable".

I bet more often than not, there are simply juicier targets than the defender to fire at.

Given that a Defender is easier to hit than a TIE fighter, his mythical survivability is probably consequence of not being considered a primary target, rather than being truly "survivable".

I bet more often than not, there are simply juicier targets than the defender to fire at.

Defenders are easier to hit than TIE fighters? Since when?

Given that a Defender is easier to hit than a TIE fighter, his mythical survivability is probably consequence of not being considered a primary target, rather than being truly "survivable".

I bet more often than not, there are simply juicier targets than the defender to fire at.

Defenders are easier to hit than TIE fighters? Since when?

I think we need to stage an intervention those death sticks are rotting his brain.

They are not a target because ussually you prefer to kill stuff that you can actually kill in one turn, to diminish return fire, or to get your opponent's list to a manageable numbers.

Actually, defenders well played are all about engaging, forcing your opponent to divide fire by bumping, then K-turn. What makes them tankier is not only their agility, or the 3Shields 3 Hitpoints, but that they have a really easy time bumping enemy ships while keeping the focus.

Shooting at 3 agility ships withouth any kind of dice modifier is a PITA.

They are not a target because ussually you prefer to kill stuff that you can actually kill in one turn, to diminish return fire, or to get your opponent's list to a manageable numbers.

Actually, defenders well played are all about engaging, forcing your opponent to divide fire by bumping, then K-turn. What makes them tankier is not only their agility, or the 3Shields 3 Hitpoints, but that they have a really easy time bumping enemy ships while keeping the focus.

Shooting at 3 agility ships withouth any kind of dice modifier is a PITA.

The unparalleled ability to disengage without loss of fire is also hugely in their favor.

That's cool your defenders were able to do well tho i just wish I could make them work for me haha just never had luck with them.

I know what you mean, I never made them work well lol.

I can't help but be disappointed that the two named defender pilots have abilities without synergie. Rex wants to take focus, and Vas wants someone target locking for him. I'd almost say FF missed a trick on this one, It would be so awesome if they gelled, but try as I might with upgrades I cant get past that fundamental conflict As a side note, perhaps IG-88 will provide the big game hunting pair that these two cant quite become, if there are four abilities to chose from there has to be a couple of killer combos.

...perhaps IG-88 will provide the big game hunting pair that these two cant quite become, if there are four abilities to chose from there has to be a couple of killer combos.

A prospect that I am positively thrilled about.

I can't help but be disappointed that the two named defender pilots have abilities without synergie. Rex wants to take focus, and Vas wants someone target locking for him. I'd almost say FF missed a trick on this one, It would be so awesome if they gelled, but try as I might with upgrades I cant get past that fundamental conflict As a side note, perhaps IG-88 will provide the big game hunting pair that these two cant quite become, if there are four abilities to chose from there has to be a couple of killer combos.

You need VI for Vessery and PTL for Rexler ... but then Rex gets stress and Defender pilots don't want to get stressed.

Having Yorr nearby means you can't equip HLCs.

Vessery with Wingman would help with stress, but then he fires after Rexler, so Rexler can't use his TL.

Those Defenders would need a second elite training slot to synergize.

Maybe there wil be an 'A-Wing fix' for Tie Defenders sometime .... far far in a dark future

I can't help but be disappointed that the two named defender pilots have abilities without synergie. Rex wants to take focus, and Vas wants someone target locking for him. I'd almost say FF missed a trick on this one, It would be so awesome if they gelled, but try as I might with upgrades I cant get past that fundamental conflict As a side note, perhaps IG-88 will provide the big game hunting pair that these two cant quite become, if there are four abilities to chose from there has to be a couple of killer combos.

The biggest reason Rex and Vess don't gel is their PS. Even if Rex TLs, you don't want to use it.

Also, since Rex shoots early, you often need to hold that focus for defense, or at least consider it.

That said, I really like both of them, I just feel a bit like their abilities/

PS are flipped.

Yesterday I played this list and it was an ugly fight.

Bath

-PTL, HLC, Shield Upgrade

Vessery

-VI, HLC, Shield Upgrade

Came to 98 points.

My opponent ran 2 blue squadron pilots and chewie with c3p0 and expert handling I think. Might have been more on chewy.

Game went like 7 rounds. I took 6 damage on Vessery and I killed everything of his. Both blues got 2 shotted. I like this list

I can't help but be disappointed that the two named defender pilots have abilities without synergie. Rex wants to take focus, and Vas wants someone target locking for him. I'd almost say FF missed a trick on this one, It would be so awesome if they gelled, but try as I might with upgrades I cant get past that fundamental conflict As a side note, perhaps IG-88 will provide the big game hunting pair that these two cant quite become, if there are four abilities to chose from there has to be a couple of killer combos.

The biggest reason Rex and Vess don't gel is their PS. Even if Rex TLs, you don't want to use it.

Also, since Rex shoots early, you often need to hold that focus for defense, or at least consider it.

That said, I really like both of them, I just feel a bit like their abilities/

PS are flipped.

I think that you guys are looking at it backwards. Braths ability has never triggered for me. And especially in this instance it's not his ability that you utilize it's his PS8. People had said before and I agree that brath and Vessery both get their abilities for 0 points. They are both cost just for their stats and pilot skill in progression from the generics. Baths ability while nice is not a key to any list, it's an added benefit that may trigger.

That being said I use brath more than Vessery and I have never had the chance to spend the focus for flipping damage. I usually just get overkill.

I think they are at appropriate points costs and PS level, and I want to see more unique Defender pilots in the future.