Okay, so you're clearly not on board with making X-Wing more inclusive. So, why did you bother to weigh in on this thread, unless your interest is to prevent X-Wing from becoming more inclusive? Clearly you've spent time wading through the thread and replying at length.

Mikael, I would reassess this assumption...to me, it doesn't look like you're being attacked or that ANYONE is making this claim.

I just think people are questioning the comparison of:

Diversity of the X-Wing Player Pool

and

Social Justice

Having a socially just society could result in diversity in the player pool , but having a diverse player pool does not make our society socially just .

It's like comparing a bus seat and a nation. We can work and work to make the bus seat the way we want it, but it won't affect the rest of the nation that still has the problem. No one is going to get upset if a surge of women increase the player pool. I (along with others) are skeptical of this happening without some severe paradigm shift happening in our societal norms.

And just in case I'm misunderstanding....Does anyone here have a problem with more women playing x-wing? Anyone?

I don't think anyone is arguing for fewer women. That sort of argument would be socially unacceptable. However, if you're arguing against women's inclusion (goal, not tactic), then what does that say? Now, I'll take Rithrin at his word that he's trying to prevent damage by do-gooders. I totally embrace his argument in this regard.

But a ton of the nay-sayer argument here has been against the premise that more inclusion of women is desirable.

Cultural change towards a socially just society happens one interaction at a time. Women knowing that men think their inclusion is natural, and their absence is bizarre, is a part of that cultural change.

Resisting culturally-imbedded sexism is a laudable life long goal, but to think some design element of this game needs to be changed is a strangely paternalistic red herring.

Women are not, statistically speaking, drawn to war games it seems. Endeavouring to change this by changing a single game which we all happen to be players of,is a strange and frankly quite condescending effort at best.

And - once again - NOBODY is arguing that the game should be changed.

If your position is simply "gender stereotypes should be diminished" then i fail to understand what this thread even exists for.

But a ton of the nay-sayer argument here has been against the premise that more inclusion of women is desirable.

Quotes please. Pretty sure the argument hasn't been "against it".

But a ton of the nay-sayer argument here has been against the premise that more inclusion of women is desirable.

Quotes please. Pretty sure the argument hasn't been "against it".

Yes show use these posts.

But a ton of the nay-sayer argument here has been against the premise that more inclusion of women is desirable.

Quotes please. Pretty sure the argument hasn't been "against it".

I think there is a misunderstanding of terms going on here....I might be wrong, but I believe the OP is defining "inclusion of women" as an action; actively trying to recruit and bring women into the X-Wing community.

It is not simply the "presence" of women. Mikael is not saying everyone is arguing against the presence of women in the game, but arguing against actively recruiting women.

OP: Not to put words in your mouth, but this is my understanding of it. Am I on base?

Does this really have to devolve into ANOTHER discussion of gamergate? Or can we just have people who want to talk about getting females into the game talk about it? Anything other than that is just going to slide downward and get locked.

This is the first time I've heard GG mentioned in a X wing post. I'm actually surprised there is more.

It tends to be the flag that starts the real aggressive arguing and results in the thread getting locked.

Edit: realized part of my comment might re-spark the thread locking behavior. So I deleted it. Sorry.

Blail Blerg:

If any of you are going to reference GamerGate, I challenge you to bring substantive evidence that comparable actions are happening in the Xwing community. I think at this point, if things are as dire as they are being portrayed there should be at least once well documented case of abuse or harassment.

Stop hiding behind righteous talk and show us some proof.

I brought up gamergate because other people were talking about it. Also I can't tell if you are pro or anti GG so I don't understand which proof I should backup for whose righteous talk. I don't think it has a great connection to X wing or this forum topic per say, but I have the right to post my views on things. Even if you think it may have nothing to do with it.

Okay. Be careful. Your quotation is wrong. I think redzap said that. Not I.

Second it's part of the bigger problem. We can avoid that particular topic exactly if you want.

But a ton of the nay-sayer argument here has been against the premise that more inclusion of women is desirable.

Quotes please. Pretty sure the argument hasn't been "against it".

I think there is a misunderstanding of terms going on here....I might be wrong, but I believe the OP is defining "inclusion of women" as an action; actively trying to recruit and bring women into the X-Wing community.

It is not simply the "presence" of women. Mikael is not saying everyone is arguing against the presence of women in the game, but arguing against actively recruiting women.

OP: Not to put words in your mouth, but this is my understanding of it. Am I on base?

No side stepping or redefining the argument. Quotes.

I understand that Cody, but that means we don't actively try to recruit (in general, not only women or men), which is something most people i know who play the game do. Only last month i taught the game 2 guys and 2 girls. One of the guys sticked up for the league we were going to start, and one of the girls already ordered a few cores.

My problem is the premise that we are not being inclusive because there are more men than women playing a miniature game. It is an obvious flawed argument from the beginning, things don't change one day to another, even if we try to. 15 years ago you wouldn't see a women even come remotely close to a LGS, now i see and play with them regularly, even if it is not miniature games (even tho there are a few who plays infinity). Step by step.

So i am completely baffled when i read something as "since there are more men than women it must be we are not being inclusive".

So at the risk of annoying everyone - I'm not 100% on what Gamergate actually is...I remember what's-her-faces video and not really seeing the big deal, I agreed with some points, not others, and then hearing people had absolutely lost their **** over it and there were even celebrity ***-for-tats on Twitter. Can someone who understands the thing give me an unbiased set of cliff notes?

Okay, so you're clearly not on board with making X-Wing more inclusive. So, why did you bother to weigh in on this thread, unless your interest is to prevent X-Wing from becoming more inclusive? Clearly you've spent time wading through the thread and replying at length.

Mikael, I would reassess this assumption...to me, it doesn't look like you're being attacked or that ANYONE is making this claim.

I just think people are questioning the comparison of:

Diversity of the X-Wing Player Pool

and

Social Justice

Having a socially just society could result in diversity in the player pool , but having a diverse player pool does not make our society socially just .

It's like comparing a bus seat and a nation. We can work and work to make the bus seat the way we want it, but it won't affect the rest of the nation that still has the problem. No one is going to get upset if a surge of women increase the player pool. I (along with others) are skeptical of this happening without some severe paradigm shift happening in our societal norms.

And just in case I'm misunderstanding....Does anyone here have a problem with more women playing x-wing? Anyone?

I don't think anyone is arguing for fewer women. That sort of argument would be socially unacceptable. However, if you're arguing against women's inclusion (goal, not tactic), then what does that say? Now, I'll take Rithrin at his word that he's trying to prevent damage by do-gooders. I totally embrace his argument in this regard.

But a ton of the nay-sayer argument here has been against the premise that more inclusion of women is desirable.

Cultural change towards a socially just society happens one interaction at a time. Women knowing that men think their inclusion is natural, and their absence is bizarre, is a part of that cultural change.

Resisting culturally-imbedded sexism is a laudable life long goal, but to think some design element of this game needs to be changed is a strangely paternalistic red herring.

Women are not, statistically speaking, drawn to war games it seems. Endeavouring to change this by changing a single game which we all happen to be players of,is a strange and frankly quite condescending effort at best.

And - once again - NOBODY is arguing that the game should be changed.

False. Ffg clearly states in the opening post that discussion not relating to their specific products will be deleted or locked. Every post after the first one - in a thread specifically about how to encourage gender inclusivity -is in reference to this fact.

If your position is simply "gender stereotypes should be diminished" then i fail to understand what this thread even exists for.

The premise isn't about changing the game. It's about evaluating how we the majority of players act when we play this game.

I've written above in my previous posts a few things that this community does.

What good does it entail? At least people's awareness is raised and we become more communal and inviting. Sadly that has diminished recently. Also then women who post on the forums can feel more comfortable and less attacked. A lot of responses they get back are highly aggressively charged. Here it is really easier to get by if your name doesn't specify your gender.

So at the risk of annoying everyone - I'm not 100% on what Gamergate actually is...I remember what's-her-faces video and not really seeing the big deal, I agreed with some points, not others, and then hearing people had absolutely lost their **** over it and there were even celebrity ***-for-tats on Twitter. Can someone who understands the thing give me an unbiased set of cliff notes?

It's about ethics in journalism on the one hand, and sexism in video games on the other. And then there were all the threats of death and [forced sex]* that ensued. Absolutely none of that has anything to do with X-Wing, and should be as far removed from the conversation as possible.

*Apparently the r-word is censored.

So at the risk of annoying everyone - I'm not 100% on what Gamergate actually is...I remember what's-her-faces video and not really seeing the big deal, I agreed with some points, not others, and then hearing people had absolutely lost their **** over it and there were even celebrity ***-for-tats on Twitter. Can someone who understands the thing give me an unbiased set of cliff notes?

It's about ethics in journalism on the one hand, and sexism in video games on the other. And then there's the **** and death threats that ensued. Absolutely none of that has anything to do with X-Wing, and should be as far removed from the conversation as possible.

Ok I'll drop it, thanks droopey-ears.

I just PM'ed you Bakura. It is better to leave it outside the public forums imho.

And just in case I'm misunderstanding....Does anyone here have a problem with more women playing x-wing? Anyone?

To go back a few pages:

"Why women ?" you ask? Because they're the missing demographic. For my sake, yes, social justice is my motivation for this thread. However, as seen in other spheres of life, there are economic rationales for wanting the inclusion of women. I don't see why that rationale should not apply here.

Are they the missing demographic, or a missing demographic? I see just as few African Americans playing X-Wing as I do females. I could enumerate the various other races/ethnicities that are ostensibly missing from our community, but I don't suppose I need to get hyperbolic here to reinforce my point.* Suffice it to say, any attempts at being more inclusive are disingenuous at best if you're just going to cherry-pick (doesn't that seem to be a hot phrase today?) your preferred minority group. I say leave justice to the professionals.

*Sorry, but I have to indulge myself after all. Where's the How can we be more Jewish inclusive in X-Wing? thread?

Actually yeah, let me ask that question. I rarely see anyone who isn't white playing x-wing, and minature games in general. Gamers, in my experience, are some of the least racist people out there, so I don't think that is the cause. What could it be?

Oh we talked about the race thing a few pages back too. Funny, almost sounds like a white-male republican only club in here. hmm. 1970s hollywood, gee i wonder.

Most importantly people have the right to choose not to play.

It is like saying why don't more guys read romance novels.

Oh we talked about the race thing a few pages back too. Funny, almost sounds like a white-male republican only club in here. hmm. 1970s hollywood, gee i wonder.

Sorry, I have poor memory. What do you mean white male republican club? You have no idea what race or gender most of these posters are, I know I sure don't. And my political leanings are definitely not republican.

That's cool though, I appreciate when the conversation dissolves into mindless stereotyping.

Most importantly people have the right to choose not to play.

It is like saying why don't more guys read romance novels.

I never got invited to go crafting by sorority girls back in college, even though I can craft stuff better than any of them ever could. Stop gender stereotyping.

Oh we talked about the race thing a few pages back too. Funny, almost sounds like a white-male republican only club in here. hmm. 1970s hollywood, gee i wonder.

You mean except for the woman who actually said "... to answer the question of how to address the imbalance of gender due to it not reflecting our social times - I would say that it is an attempt to fix something not necessarily broken." That was quite a few pages back as well, and yet the thread continues unabated.

While I can appreciate your sarcasm, I find it to be sorely misplaced. I would give you a further primer on the skills involved in argumentation, but you don't seem to be overly interested in being taken seriously - and that's too bad, because you don't strike me as an altogether unintelligent person.

So, what's the point of this thread? Are we trying to figure out ways to draw more women in?

It's a thread with a bunch of guys bitching about no girls at the game store. That about sums it up.

Oh we talked about the race thing a few pages back too. Funny, almost sounds like a white-male republican only club in here. hmm. 1970s hollywood, gee i wonder.

You say that like it is an insult...

....it was

So, what's the point of this thread? Are we trying to figure out ways to draw more women in?

It's a thread with a bunch of guys bitching about no girls at the game store. That about sums it up.

I can't stop thinking about this video: