I think the answer to this question all boils down to something two very wise people said about 25 years ago:

"Be excellent to each other."

"And party on, dudes!"

Everyone treat anyone with respect and kindness (yes, even here on the forum; anonymity can be a dangerous weapon that destroys humanity), and everything would be much better. If that is done by all (or even most) and there are still fewer women playing than men, then it isn't the gamer community, nor is it FFGs fault. I honestly don't know if this is a serious problem because I don't have it in my area. However, if it is, even if the numbers do not change dramatically by our displaying basic consideration for others, the fact remains that the community will gain a few people who otherwise would not have played this wonderful game. If it isn't a problem, then what harm will there be in treating others with respect?I feel that is a win-win all-around, don't you?

So here's a question: not that its their job alone, but what do female x-wing players do to encourage other females to play?

What works?

If they can't get their female friends to play, what can dudes who are stangers expect to do?

It depends, most women that happen to play, or atleast the ones i had met, started because their group of friends played it and they gave it a go. It is very rare that you will happen to meet women just coming to try out the game by themselves. If they do, they normally will come with company. Meanwhile, most men don't have that problem. Yes, if our group of friends play it, it will help towards us trying it out, but we also decide on our own, and go to the LGS looking for players no problem.

The problem is mostly rooted on our infancy, while hidatom seems to be mocking the "boys play with gi-joes, girls with barbies", it is truth, and it ends up affecting our interests later on. At the end, education is more important than whatever positive discrimination at your LGS you want to try to encourage women to play miniature games (also let's be clear about this, because NONE has been proposed yet). So why not promote education instead of trying to force guilt feeling unto others.

Do you think women don't play miniature games because we make them feel left out ?

Do you think men don't dance at ballroom because women makes us feel left out ?

It is a pretty sad thread, because it is completely outsourced from the core values which are the root problems about gender differences on hobbies.

...... which are the root problems about gender differences on hobbies.

Why are gender differences in hobbies a problem?

Earlier I asked anyone to point me to a thread anywhere on the internet where women post worrying about how to include men in their leisure activities. I have not seen a response.

Why is different by necessity a problem?

I am sorry, my english isn't really decent. When i mean root problems, i mean real problems which are promoted by our society since we are introduced to it (even tho we have been doing a lot of advancements), not that women not being interested into miniature gaming is a problem. Whenever i use problem, i am talking about the issue being discussed, not that i perceive it as a problem.

As i said, men not being interested on ballroom dance isn't considered a gender issue where men are excluded either, or atleast, it is not perceived that way, so why Xwing should be perceived as such. The double morality is what annoys me the most.

oops - misread you. Thx.

As i said, men not being interested on ballroom dance isn't considered a gender issue where men are excluded either, or atleast, it is not perceived that way, so why Xwing should be perceived as such. The double morality is what annoys me the most.

Because we know that we'd be more than welcome at a ballroom dancing event, whereas women might not feel as welcome at an X-Wing event. As I said (all along), we're probably quite happy to have them at our gaming tables, but as long as it remains an event that has a ten-to-none ratio women are probably much less likely to feel welcome, except in unsavory ways.

Now, I do get your meaning. Ballroom dancing was probably not the best choice of event to use as an equivalent, because there is something about ballroom that inherently prefers a gender balance. However, someone else mentioned knitting.

Here's the problem with posing the equivalence: it ignores history and reality . Women have historically been treated as inferior, and when things go very wrong, women are far more likely to suffer the violent consequences. Because we haven't been made to suffer by either, we don't think about it as a fact of life in the same way that women have to do. Sure, there are plenty of strong women who can hold their own, but there are also many women who feel they need to be much more security conscious than men do.

Here's the problem with posing the equivalence: it ignores history and reality . Women have historically been treated as inferior, and when things go very wrong, women are far more likely to suffer the violent consequences. Because we haven't been made to suffer by either, we don't think about it as a fact of life in the same way that women have to do. Sure, there are plenty of strong women who can hold their own, but there are also many women who feel they need to be much more security conscious than men do.

Okay - I get you, but are you extrapolating that this type of violent consequence will be visited upon a woman who tries to play x-wing or any game if "things go very wrong" at an LGS? Is this what you are postulating? Have you had any actual real women tell you first hand they fear this , or are you assuming this?

Has anyone ever heard of a woman suffering any kind of violence at a game store? I've never seen ANY VIOLENCE at a game store between any players, even the self appointed alpha males. I know it happens in the world, so I am not dismissive of violence towards women (or men, for that matter), but taking a fact and then assuming that same thing can occur in any environment is a huge stretch.

Violence against women is a real problem, and you are right to stand against it. Assuming it will occur at a game store simply because a woman walks in to play a game? That is where you lose me, and I suspect , many others. You also risk being taken seriously IF this is what you're truly saying will occur, and that would not help your cause. In effect, you are practically accusing those in the gaming community of being latent women beaters, only waiting for the opportunity.

Please tell me I am reading you wrong. Again, IF I misread you, please correct me. I'm open to understanding what you meant.

I know why women don't just hop in to try out games with random people like we do Mikael, thanks anyways for pointing it out.

Then why do you ignore that historically women and men have been drawn different interests ? And we are gender blocked for them. Women and men alike. Anything considered feminine has to be considered taboo by men.

Certainly, telling a bunch of people on a forum, that they can do better because men outnumber women as Xwing players, withouth any knowledge of what they are actually doing, or if there is a big enough demography of women with interest to be drawn into Xwing, or any real solution on what and how to improve is something i find baffling, maybe you can explain it to me.

Here's the problem with posing the equivalence: it ignores history and reality . Women have historically been treated as inferior, and when things go very wrong, women are far more likely to suffer the violent consequences. Because we haven't been made to suffer by either, we don't think about it as a fact of life in the same way that women have to do. Sure, there are plenty of strong women who can hold their own, but there are also many women who feel they need to be much more security conscious than men do.

Okay - I get you, but are you extrapolating that this type of violent consequence will be visited upon a woman who tries to play x-wing or any game if "things go very wrong" at an LGS? Is this what you are postulating? Have you had any actual real women tell you first hand they fear this , or are you assuming this?

I am not saying anything specific about the LGS or X-Wing. What I am saying is that it's a mistake to draw the parallel pictures of women-majority activities and men-majority activities as being different sides of the same coin in terms of inclusion/exclusion.

Yes, I have women tell me that issues of personal security are very different for women than they are for men. A man walking into a women-majority activity does not have the same sorts of concerns that a woman has approaching a man-majority activity.

Yes, I am 'extrapolating' from the general to the particular when I posit that the concerns that women generally have when approaching men-majority activities is applicable to tabletop gaming and X-Wing. Now, clearly, I'm not saying that women feel the threat of physical violence when they walk into a gaming store, or approach a group of guys at a gaming table. I'm saying that women in general feel the need to be more careful, and all-guy events are much more likely to be intimidating to a woman than going to a ballroom event or a knitting circle is for a guy (even if knitting needles are more serious weapons than toy TIE fighters are ).

I want to draw a line to something else here, F1. Start of the year people were banging on about there being no female drivers ( there are female drivers in other motorsports ). After a month or so of fuss it was finally accepted that no one was pushing woman out of F1 they just didn't make the cut ( lots of men don't too ) or weren't really interested in being F1 drivers. They asked a few female drivers from other motorsports and most said they didn't care one way or another. X-wing is the same, no one is pushing woman away ( at least I have never seen them do it ) it's just not something they really care about.

18 pages or horse dung...

There is no conspiracy or sexist at work here. I was trying to be pleasant skip this part but I guess this endless drivel won't stop, so here it is:

You want more female gamers? Go take a bath and brush your teeth. Seriously, some gamers really suffer from gamer-funk rather badly. Some real acute cases out there too.

But despite what delusional modern and enlightened PC crowd want to tell you, men and women are different. We have some things in common but we are still different. And there is nothing wrong with that.

...no one is pushing woman away ( at least I have never seen them do it ) it's just not something they really care about.

That may indeed be the case. I'm not saying that we do push women away. I'm just wondering if there's a way to attract more women to X-Wing than are currently being attracted to it.

However, as you said, some women do go for other motorsports. In the range of tabletop gaming, I imagine that X-Wing would be one of the more likely games to bring women in rather than the least likely. And maybe it is! I don't know how the ratios stack up in comparison to other games.

There is no conspiracy or sexist at work here. I was trying to be pleasant skip this part but I guess this endless drivel won't stop....

And nobody is saying there is sexism or a conspiracy in our game. If you'll go back to my OP, you'll see that I praised FFG and trusted in our community for not being sexist.

But, if the thread is so annoying to you - why are you participating in it? Drown me out with a better thread. Distract me from my alleged feminazi jihad with a great debate about Decimators vs. Fat Dashes or how Scum is going to break up the meta (or not).

Don't be mean to women who play. That's pretty self-explanatory.

Don't raise your daughters to play exclusively with "girly" toys. Throw in a few dinosaurs, legos, and model airplanes. See what they like and give them more of whatever that is. Same goes for boys too, by the way.

Don't expect a majority of women to flock to X-wing and similar games overnight. If I grew up playing the sort of games that many women did, I would probably not be very interested, either. There will be many individual exceptions, but in general, upbringing has a big effect on what we like to do in adulthood.

You have a great point with this regarding exposing daughters to things other than traditional girl toys. That does help however I think in all honesty a big reason you don't see a lot of female gamers is simply because of a sense of unease they get in that environment. Lets be honest here gaming is largely a male audience and finding a woman that is open to the idea of gaming is like the holy grail much less finding one that tolerates their SO wanting to playing with plastic toys. Now couple a majorly out of skew ratio of men to women and you have bad things happen. The few female friends of mine that used to game got turned off of it due to constantly being hit on by lonely gamers. You want to be more inclusive then perhaps the male community needs to limit their flirtation's and rather than staring at her naughty bits actually make eye contact. Imagine going to a game store full of women and having to suffer the reverse when you really just came in to play a game of what your choice is. I am willing to bet they feel like a deer being pursued by a pack of ravenous wolves. Sorry but that is my honest observation from what I have seen in stores and from what I have heard talking to friends and even my Wife who used to play Vampire the RPG.

I've only seen two women at my LGS playing miniatures games, both of whom were there last night. Neither of them would be playing at all if it wasn't for their boyfriends. Does that say something about the hobby on a larger scale?

I've only seen two women at my LGS playing miniatures games, both of whom were there last night. Neither of them would be playing at all if it wasn't for their boyfriends. Does that say something about the hobby on a larger scale?

Let me put it this way.

Even I, a nerdy dude, don't want to be stuck in a hot room with another dozen even nerdier guys who smell faintly or strongly of gamer funk, take the game way too seriously, and absolutely eyef*ck any woman that walks by.

I've experienced this at the miniatures store I visit every now and then. Dad walks in with wife? Stares everywhere. Getting stared at is damned uncomfortable.

Especially if it's by a bunch of people, guy or not, who are very likely thinking rather undesirable things about you.

Especially if you just so happen to be that rare woman who genuinely enjoys the stuff, but you're constantly having to prove it to guys who doubt you actually enjoy it and just want attention. (From them, for some inexplicable reason?)

So, yeah. I can kind of see why women would generally not want to be too heavily involved with the miniatures scene. It isn't too female friendly- entirely due to the players you expect and not so infrequently meet.

The best thing we can do is to be examples for others, making sure we're clean, flying casual, not eyebanging every woman we see and ensuring that we do all we can to be socially acceptable.

I mean I really can't blame anyone for keeping a safe distance from comic/miniature shops. Even I, a Brony megaf*ckingnerd step into the store with caution and trepidation, mostly just wanting to get my stuff and go.

That's how, as a guy I feel about the scene. Sorry to offend anyone.

I've only seen two women at my LGS playing miniatures games, both of whom were there last night. Neither of them would be playing at all if it wasn't for their boyfriends. Does that say something about the hobby on a larger scale?

Let me put it this way.

Even I, a nerdy dude, don't want to be stuck in a hot room with another dozen even nerdier guys who smell faintly or strongly of gamer funk, take the game way too seriously, and absolutely eyef*ck any woman that walks by.

I've experienced this at the miniatures store I visit every now and then. Dad walks in with wife? Stares everywhere. Getting stared at is damned uncomfortable.

Especially if it's by a bunch of people, guy or not, who are very likely thinking rather undesirable things about you.

Especially if you just so happen to be that rare woman who genuinely enjoys the stuff, but you're constantly having to prove it to guys who doubt you actually enjoy it and just want attention. (From them, for some inexplicable reason?)

Had to delete some of your post but wanted to say that I am in 100% agreement with you. As my above post had stated similar things. However I did forget about the part that I put in bold from your post. Not sure why but it does seem that any female that is remotely interested in something not mainstream does get that interrogation. Oh so you like X when tell me something about an event that happened in the X. Or what type of gear does X use? Rather than just accept them and it seems that the same guys that are eyebanging girls feel threatened by a girl being interested in the subculture item.

I am somewhat surprised. Do you guys think that only guys at a gaming stores look at women and, what did he say above, "eye-bang" them (new term for me, anyways)? Walk through the mall, the haven of shopping women everywhere, and tell me that same behavior doesn't occur. Or at a beach. Or an office. Or at ___________ .

I think men most places do this to varying degrees of subtlety. Doesn't make it right, but perhaps the average LGS crowd isn't very subtle, so perhaps it would intensify the effect. Also, do you think women never look at men? Really?

I appreciate the conversation, but I'll bow out here. Rewriting the biological drives of humanity (both female and male) is above my pay scale.

I am somewhat surprised. Do you guys think that only guys at a gaming stores look at women and, what did he say above, "eye-bang" them (new term for me, anyways)? Walk through the mall, the haven of shopping women everywhere, and tell me that same behavior doesn't occur. Or at a beach. Or an office. Or at ___________ .

I think men most places do this to varying degrees of subtlety. Doesn't make it right, but perhaps the average LGS crowd isn't very subtle, so perhaps it would intensify the effect. Also, do you think women never look at men? Really?

I appreciate the conversation, but I'll bow out here. Rewriting the biological drives of humanity (both female and male) is above my pay scale.

There is a difference from looking at a woman at a mall and from a woman being in a gaming store and guys staring at her the entire time. I have seen this quite a few times and I can understand why a woman would not be happy with that. So yes checking a woman out I can see as acceptable but be an adult and don't over do it.

I will throw my opinion in for what it's worth. I'm almost 36 now and have been gaming since my first D&D session at about the age of 12. Since middle high, I have had 7 fairly serious relationships, 3 of the women I had lived with for a couple years each or more, and have had quite a few close women friends, some of whom I also dated, in non-serious manner. Almost all of these women I have tried to get involved in gaming. Also, I have tried to get some of their friends involved as well. Some took to it, but only in a casual, small group manner, and never in a serious or competitive way. Also, I have had the imput of a lot of my close guy friends speaking on the matter as to their gf's or spouses views on the topic. I only state all this to express that I do have a fair bit of experience involved with the matter, although I will admit I am no expert on the topic.

I think there are many different reasons why most women don't take an interest. I think many of the points made so far are valid. I know some women don't care to get involved in gaming because they are just uncomfortable being outnumbered by so many men. Also some don't want to feel like they are interfering with an event that they feel men want for themselves. I know some women who have said that there presents makes them feel that the men can't be themselves. Someone mentioned poor gamer hygiene. I know that I myself have been agitated by the poor state of hygiene of SOME gamers at almost every moderate to large gaming event I have attended, and I have heard women who were with me say the same. Plus, there is the common social awkwardness of many gamers, and the oogling, the being hit on, or just plain being ignored. I'm sure there is the odd sexist behavior as well, although I have yet to see it.

I really don't think there is a simple answer to the question of how to get more women involved. I think shy of more women just wanting to get involved on there own accord, there is little else that can be done, IMHO. The only thing that I think would catch more womens interest, is there being more women involved in the first place. But that would be like trying to get to step B without first taking step A. I also believe that if a lot of guys starting changing the way they are to attract more women gamers, I think that it would only add to comment I made above about how some women feel their presents is unwanted. But thats just my theory. I think it is the way it is because that's just the way it is.

Wow, I take a week off and look at the fun I miss. I'm 38 and I've been gaming since grade school. Once I hit college gaming, was a all genders included thing. I have not had a single gender role playing experience since the 90's.

If you want to encourage more women to enter your games then be a feminist. I proudly wear the label. See women as the people they are and call out your friends when they reduce a woman, or a character of one, to a sex object.

Women aren't puzzles, aliens or even all that different from guys, except that there is an entire layer of extra BS fed to them by our society which tells them to stay away from 'boy stuff' and competition. Especially competition with boys. If you doubt that ask yourself why is you do X 'like a girl' an insult? Talk to women you are friends with and who trust you enough to give you a straight answer, then listen to the answer you get.

Also, those of you who think gaming is all guys, it isn't. Hasn't been for a long time, but the perception is skewed, partially because gaming is a word that means different things to different folks, and partly because there is a lot of sexist crap out there and it be hooves them to keep their heads down. Again if you don't see it ask friends who are women. They can help you see it if you listen.

I agree with you Stellar7. Only problem is that the environment, for the most part, is already mostly male oriented and will take some time for gender balancing to take place, if it happens at all, even if all men became feminists. I don't believe that it mostly has to do with women being objectified. I have seen quite a few women interested in gaming, but for the most part it's been mostly guys. Most of the women I have gamed with only really did it as something to do, not as a hobby. I think if every gamer looked like prince charming, was a feminist, and had excellent hygiene, then I think there would still be a lack of interest on a large scale like with men. And if the games were tailored to suit womens interests on an equal level with mens, then I think you would lose the interests of a lot more men gamers then you would attract women gamers. I'm sure these big gaming companies have probably looked into some form of marketing studies on the subject. Like I said, I think it just is the way it is. Nothing is preventing women from getting involved if they choose too. But, for the most part, they seem to choose not to, and thats their choice, not ours.

This all speaking from my own personal experience of course.

I can only speak from my experience, and those of the women who have told me why they don't join these types of communities and games. It isn't lack of interest or adding "women's interests". There is no such thing. It's that stupid enculturation we all get that tells us there are boy things and girl things. It's insidious.

I can only speak from my experience, and those of the women who have told me why they don't join these types of communities and games. It isn't lack of interest or adding "women's interests". There is no such thing. It's that stupid enculturation we all get that tells us there are boy things and girl things. It's insidious.

Well, I don't know about that exactly. I think there most definitely are things that appeal more to one sex over another. How many men do you know that are really into knitting and sewing, or candle making/collecting. Aroma therapy, or making flower arrangments? Hair dressing and make up artistry? These are all examples of hobbies dominated by women, and not because the men feel sexually discriminated out of. I believe it goes the same as for gaming, in that most women just don't give a **** about it. It starts from childhood. Most girls gravitate to dolls, while boys do to toy soldiers and guns. I have 3 kids of my own, 2 boys and a girl, and have dozens of way younger cousins, none of whom have been forced to play with spacific toys. It's just the nature of things, for the most part. On a general consensus, men and women are not the same. Sure they do share a lot of common interests, most in fact, but in order to really "see" a woman, I think you have to accept that they, on average, are not the same as men. I think it's like saying "I'm not racist, I don't see skin color." If you don't see someone for their differences, then how can you accept them for who they are? I think that what your saying is like saying that women are like men and should be treated like men. Well I for one can tell you from my personal experience, that most women I have known do not like to be treated like one of the guys. But thats not to say that you can't treat women with respect. A lot of women find mens behaviour with each other to be vulgar or just plain immature, generally speaking. That's my 2 cents.

My apologies to Mikael for not replying sooner. Busy life of being a single Mom in the big city. LOL.

I honestly haven't read all the messages here, and I hadn't read anything that followed my message in the last thread.

Vorpal Sword hit the nail on the head, if you don't think there is a problem you are part of the problem. Privilege blinds, basically. Of course if you are so blind you cannot even see or believe that privilege exists, well you can join Bill O'Reily in that category.

I do think that FFG wants to do a good job and I think that they do. Echo and Whisper are women, as per FAQ but the little war that's waged against that could be resolved by FFG making a clear message.

I understand that they are working more diligently on maintaining control of the forums, which also helps. A great many aggressive messages are pointed towards women here, as with many forums with a mostly white hetero-normative male demographic. I have received many messages or public replies that focus more on attacking my character or dismissing notions of gender inequality. You've all seen it. The 'problem' people just pretend it doesn't exist.

The singular argument that these problem community members wield is that tired old trope about how the Galactic Empire is racist and sexist and so it should stay that way.

Here's the thing - Star Wars was created in the 70s by a bunch of white guys. It definitely skews that way, no denying that. Having the Galactic Empire so directly mirror the Nazis was also a blatant attempt to make us sympathize with the rebels, which we all understand.

That said, it doesn't have to be static in time. The prequels changed a lot of things, Episode 7 surely will, and the EU content introduced many strong female characters: Mara Jade, Ysanne Isard, Admiral Daala (swoon), that solo daughter, and more!

Behold! Star Wars is suddenly less sexist. Which crew members have been included in the recent Wave 5 release? Several women. In wave 4? Phantom ladies. FFG seems to be on the ball with this.

Placating a stagnant notion of the Empire being sexist doesn't help FFG earn more money or FLGS have more ladies at their X-Wing events buying stuff.

The Galactic Empire remains sexist and racist, but that doesn't mean women don't exist in it! Even in Mad Men, a terribly sexist show/time in life, there were still women characters. They were not invisible, they had stories, and they faced struggles. Howlrunner had it tough, but she was such an Ace she shined through.

The overwhelming majority of Star Wars characters are white guys. It doesn't cheapen the game for FFG to, in their warmest wisdom, make up more girls like Echo and Whisper so ladies can see the appeal of making purchases and helping the economy.