Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

I agree

I agree

I disagree and everything from Bokor Haram to Gamergate shows we need to continue to fight for equal rights for women.

X-Wing already has equal rights for women. This thread appears to be arguing that we should **** well force them to take up their right to play X-Wing whether they want to or not.

If you want a different example: I'm all for people having the right to gender reassignment if they so wish - that doesn't mean I want someone strapping me down to a table and chopping my **** off against my will

>Still worrying about in/exclusivity in anything
>Not just welcoming new people
>Not just treating everyone the same
>Not just treating people like human beings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhrd1R8-dBg

Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

I agree

I agree

I disagree and everything from Bokor Haram to Gamergate shows we need to continue to fight for equal rights for women.

X-Wing already has equal rights for women. This thread appears to be arguing that we should **** well force them to take up their right to play X-Wing whether they want to or not.

If you want a different example: I'm all for people having the right to gender reassignment if they so wish - that doesn't mean I want someone strapping me down to a table and chopping my **** off against my will

I guess we read different original posts...the OP was pretty clear he just wanted to have a discussion about how we can get more females in the game. The only absolutes I have seen are from critics of this thread.

Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

I agree

I agree

I disagree and everything from Bokor Haram to Gamergate shows we need to continue to fight for equal rights for women.

X-Wing already has equal rights for women. This thread appears to be arguing that we should **** well force them to take up their right to play X-Wing whether they want to or not.

If you want a different example: I'm all for people having the right to gender reassignment if they so wish - that doesn't mean I want someone strapping me down to a table and chopping my **** off against my will

I guess we read different original posts...the OP was pretty clear he just wanted to have a discussion about how we can get more females in the game. The only absolutes I have seen are from critics of this thread.

I'm seeing a good chunks of the userbase saying that they just want to play the game against likeminded people, and it really doesn't matter two bits to them whether their opponents are male or female. I'm then seeing others slamming said userbase as trying to oppress women. Supposedly for treating women as mere equals.

Well said!

I'm seeing a good chunks of the userbase saying that they just want to play the game against likeminded people, and it really doesn't matter two bits to them whether their opponents are male or female. I'm then seeing others slamming said userbase as trying to oppress women. Supposedly for treating women as mere equals.

Horsehockey.

Myself and those on my side have not said that the male players are oppressing women, nor have we advocated for changing the game as some others have alleged. Also, I'm not advocating for treating women as more than equals. If you honestly think that this is what we've been advocating, then let me just say: it ain't so .

I do think that there are subtle barriers for women's inclusion. It isn't about the 'userbase' being sexist or doing anything to willfully exclude. It's about the presumption that it's a boys-only club, and women don't feel invited to join.

I think that we could do more to let women know that they're welcome. Full stop.

But I'm guessing you're just using a rhetorical device to marginalize our argument by mischaracterization, the way so many others have also done in this thread. Why can't you read my arguments for what they are, rather than stuff them full of junk that I did not argue for? Frankly, that raises a lot of questions with me about what your motives are. I'm glad that at least Old Adept is up front about his motives.

I honestly didn't think anything else needed to be said on the topic and was done discussing it. Now all of a sudden there's 4 or 5 threads bashing on this one? Just because some people don't like the content of it?

This paragraph was rather harsh, but I decided to edit it down and just leave it at "wow."

To all you people trashing on this: all of you (or most) claim you don't have a problem with more women playing x-wing. Imagine if you were a woman following this thread. There is some harsh discussion, then you see a bunch of joke threads and memes trying to "derail" the thread? Would that make you feel good? Would you feel welcome or feel like you're being "treated like everyone else?"

Just because someone is posting doesn't mean they're not reading.

I think that we could do more to let women know that they're welcome. Full stop.

I will say this, that wouldn't be so bad. The only issue is, how the hell do we do that?

It can't be done instantly. I'd argue it has to be done gradually, and the biggest thing people need to stop doing..?

"She's not a real gamer, she's just doing it for attention."

That needs to end forever and anyone who does it needs to get kicked in the john.

If you have a problem with the discussion, then just stop reading the thread. It doesn't make sense to dirty up this thread, then start a bunch of garbage ones as well.

I honestly didn't think anything else needed to be said on the topic and was done discussing it. Now all of a sudden there's 4 or 5 threads bashing on this one? Just because some people don't like the content of it?

This paragraph was rather harsh, but I decided to edit it down and just leave it at "wow."

To all you people trashing on this: all of you (or most) claim you don't have a problem with more women playing x-wing. Imagine if you were a woman following this thread. There is home harsh discussion, then you see a bunch of joke threads and memes trying to "derail" the thread? Would that make you feel good? Would you feel welcome or feel like you're being "treated like everyone else?"

Just because someone is posting doesn't mean they're not reading.

I dunno man, I don't think I'm the person you should be complaining at. Robin Graves posted a picture of a funny looking lock, and I thought a bank vault would be an amusing reply to it.

And I haven't made any of the goofy parody threads, and reported 3 of them as unneccessary and spam posts.

Yeah, lots of complaints about the parody threads, so I was suprised to see the originals are still going.

Didn't mean they should get locked, but...

And the pic of the Hell lockseed (with the flame details - flame war, get it?) from Kamen Rider Gaim looked aproriate,so i posted it.

Here's an idea - everyone invite 10 women you know to play X-wing. Report back how it goes, what was said if the answer was a "no", and if you were able to change anyone's mind if initially it was a no.

I'm game, and I'd be happy to play anyone, man or woman, but if they say no, so be it, right?

Meanwhile, please someone point me to a thread anywhere on the internet where women wonder and worry about how to include men in their leisure time pursuits. I am actually serious about this - not being snarky.

10 women you know

BUT THERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM

A girl I know won't play unless she can play with Spaceball One, or Lone Star's Winnebago.

That's what happens when you get into star wars by watching "Spaceballs".

10 women you know

BUT THERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM

Assuming you're joking, but if not, why is knowing 10 females an issue?

Could this be A reason why no one invites them to play?

Meanwhile, please someone point me to a thread anywhere on the internet where women wonder and worry about how to include men in their leisure time pursuits. I am actually serious about this - not being snarky.

I asked exactly the same the past thread (yeah, there has been 2 more of this).

Someone spoke about ballroom dance. But they actually need a man and a women to do it, so i don't know how legitimate is to really bring that up. We don't have that neccessity on Xwing.

Don't be mean to women who play. That's pretty self-explanatory.

Don't raise your daughters to play exclusively with "girly" toys. Throw in a few dinosaurs, legos, and model airplanes. See what they like and give them more of whatever that is. Same goes for boys too, by the way.

Don't expect a majority of women to flock to X-wing and similar games overnight. If I grew up playing the sort of games that many women did, I would probably not be very interested, either. There will be many individual exceptions, but in general, upbringing has a big effect on what we like to do in adulthood.

Did Babaganoosh win the thread when someone wasn't looking? It kinds looks like he won the thread...

I'm seeing a good chunks of the userbase saying that they just want to play the game against likeminded people, and it really doesn't matter two bits to them whether their opponents are male or female. I'm then seeing others slamming said userbase as trying to oppress women. Supposedly for treating women as mere equals.

Horsehockey.

Myself and those on my side have not said that the male players are oppressing women, nor have we advocated for changing the game as some others have alleged. Also, I'm not advocating for treating women as more than equals. If you honestly think that this is what we've been advocating, then let me just say: it ain't so .

Maybe not you personally, but you do have people "on your side" (or at least claiming to be) who are making claims that we're trying to limit women from joining the X-Wing community. If you want to do something positive for "your side", try shutting them up. Maybe they'll take the hint if even their own side is trying to shut them down. Assuming that they aren't just deliberately trying to make you look bad...

If you want an alternative approach, stop looking at those members as being on "your side". If someone says something against them, don't jump to their defence as being "one of you". Instead join in the attack on them, weed them out, and those of us left may well be able to have a sane discussion.

I do think that there are subtle barriers for women's inclusion. It isn't about the 'userbase' being sexist or doing anything to willfully exclude. It's about the presumption that it's a boys-only club, and women don't feel invited to join.

I think that we could do more to let women know that they're welcome. Full stop.

Which is a trigger of the problem.

That arguement ultimately boils down to the women in question being sexist about the X-Wing userbase. A lot of us are saying that we're happy being just as welcoming towards women who want to play as we are towards men. To be more welcoming towards women therefore means being more welcoming towards women than we are towards me. Which is sexism. Which is against what a lot of us see as equality.

Of course, when we say that, you have people on your side (or claiming to be on your side) who come up with stuff like:

"Please direct your attention to people's actual arguments,"

There are "actual Arguments" for limiting/excluding women from playing X-wing?

please link.

Oh look, we're supposedly excluding women from playing X-Wing by merely treating them as equals

As I've said above, stop jumping to such people's defence - it really just makes you look like you do agree with them.

But I'm guessing you're just using a rhetorical device to marginalize our argument by mischaracterization, the way so many others have also done in this thread. Why can't you read my arguments for what they are, rather than stuff them full of junk that I did not argue for? Frankly, that raises a lot of questions with me about what your motives are. I'm glad that at least Old Adept is up front about his motives.

You have your own guys mischaracterizing your arguements quite enough on your own by the looks of it. Mind you, that's been the problem with feminism in general far as I can tell. Whilst I get on just fine with the egalitarians in the feminist community, you also have those who think that women should have rights weighted in their favour, and those who just plain hate men. Just like the situation here, it's the latter elements of the feminist movement that give all feminists a bad name.

Tell you what, how about some background on me. I'm an egalitarian. I'm all for equal rights for women, but I'm equally for equal rights for men. As well as the usual "masculine" interests (wargames, martial arts, etc), I also have a spread of "feminine" interests (dolls, My Little Pony, gothic lolita fashion, etc). Do I think that doll groups and gothic lolita groups should go out of their way to be more welcoming to me than they are with ladies? Hell no.

I'll let you into a secret: I'd get upset before too long if I started getting the feeling that I was getting special treatment just because "Oh look it's a guy who plays with dolls! Let's give the special snowflake an extra big welcome!"

How is it that some people can't accept that men will do what they want and women will do what they want?

They aren't always the same things so what, if you were to ask random ladies on the street I would bet most would say " no thanks, not my sort of thing ". I haven't seen in any group I have ever been a part of that has told woman that they can't join in.

10 women you know

BUT THERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM

Mom, grandma, that aunt I never talk to, that girl from Facebook, the girl at the McDonals drive thru....man, this is harder than I thought it would be.

10 women you know

BUT THERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM

Mom, grandma, that aunt I never talk to, that girl from Facebook, the girl at the McDonals drive thru....man, this is harder than I thought it would be.

MUST. GET. OUT. MORE. WITHOUT. PITHY. SCI-FI. REFERENCING. T-SHIRT.

10 women you know

BUT THERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM

Mom, grandma, that aunt I never talk to, that girl from Facebook, the girl at the McDonals drive thru....man, this is harder than I thought it would be.

MUST. GET. OUT. MORE. WITHOUT. PITHY. SCI-FI. REFERENCING. T-SHIRT.

I'll go buy a nice polo and some pants that aren't cargo shorts here, soon, i swear

"Oh look, we're supposedly excluding women from playing X-Wing by merely treating them as equals

As I've said above, stop jumping to such people's defence - it really just makes you look like you do agree with them."

the OP wants to try to get more women into X-wing...what is the counter argument? I was clearly responding to someone who was ARGUING with the OP...please tell me what a logical argument against including more women in X-wing looks like.

is it:

"People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop."

or

"'m totally for banning those who detract from actual gameplay and product critiques."

or

"Most girls don't play with tonka trucks, or hot wheels cars, etc as boys. It's a GENDER thing. People have certain gender specific interests"

or

"Things shouldn't be diluted and gender neutral. Boys like the color blue and trucks and cars Girls like the color pink and dolls"

or

"Can we stop trying to solve something that really is not a problem in the first place?"

or

"If the above about spatial awareness is true, that in itself could be one reason why less women would want to play the game: Most people I know (both male and female) tend not to enjoy things they're not as good at."

or

"Women aren't conditioned to crave the sort of conflict that X-Wing provides:"

or

"What if the issue isn't men excluding women from this hobby, but women negatively stereotyping the men who participate in it?"

it's probably:

"I like miniatures games because there are nearly ZERO women that play them."

there is more but I got tired of cutting and pasting (

my comment about people excluding women was rhetorical, based on the fact that people are arguing with the OP. In no way was I stating people were actively advocating less women in the game.

my comment about people excluding women was rhetorical, based on the fact that people are arguing with the OP. In no way was I stating people were actively advocating less women in the game.

Riiiight, so why were you claiming that people are advocating "limiting/excluding women from playing X-wing" then? Because when asked to pay attention to what people's actual arguments, that's what you claimed in response.

the OP wants to try to get more women into X-wing...what is the counter argument?

- Why is it a problem?

- Is it even a problem in the first place?

- What's wrong with just letting women play as and when they want to?

- Can't we just treat women as equals for once?

- Is the suggested "cure" worth the fact that it's further promoting sexism? Especially considering that the beneficiaries of said sexism are being put forward as the potential problem in the first place?

If you actually paid attention to the actual arguments rather than attacking everyone as wanting to hold back women you'd know this.

I just hope everyone reading this thread looking for actual discussion hits the report button on everyone of the other threads trying to cover this one up. Sure, it'll get em more views but it's the only way the mods will whip out the Ban stick.

I reported you, does that count?

17 posts...most of them in this post...hmmm.

A girl I know won't play unless she can play with Spaceball One, or Lone Star's Winnebago.

That's what happens when you get into star wars by watching "Spaceballs".

I would totally field LoneStar's Winnebego...

Don't want to dwell on Spaceball One too long or we'll start another Huge Imperial Ships thread.....