I think this is a non issue with this game. Boys and girls are different and like different things. I don't know why people can't accept that.

I think the reason behind this particular problem is that "Men and women are different" or "White and black people are different" or other similar reasonings have been misused before now as justifications for discrimination. As a result a fair chunk of society have now swung too far in the opposite direction and now think even acknowledging any differences between the genders is sexism.

I suspect that part of the problem also lies in how bad most people are in understanding statistics. If we take for example the studies that have suggested that on average males have better spatial awareness (we won't argue whether or not they're true for the moment, but for the sake of example let's give them the benefit of the doubt):

- Some people have taken this to mean that all men are better than all women at tasks that require spatial awareness (and therefore claim that women can't drive, etc.)

- Some people claim that such studies are sexist, and that men and women can't possibly be any different from each other in such a way.

- Someone with a grasp of statistics would understand that if these studies are true, all it would mean is that the "average man" has better spatial awareness than possibly 51% of women, that the "average woman" could still have better spatial awareness than 49% of men, and that at the end of the day if a woman is still a better driver than a man they should be recognised as such.

Relating this to the game, it may be that less women are interested in this style of game than is the case with men. My answer to that is that there will still be plenty of women who are interested - as far as I'm concerned they're just as welcome to play the game as any guy, I'll try to beat them just as hard as I would any male opponent, and I'll accept my ass-whoopings off them just as graciously as I would from any male opponent.

Yes, agreed.

...with one exception - that being your analogy to the spatial awareness. I think with the spatial awareness you're talking about an aspect of nature, something which is much less malleable (but not totally unmalleable) than culture is.

I think this is a non issue with this game. Boys and girls are different and like different things. I don't know why people can't accept that.

Because it's just not that easy. 'What boys want' and 'what girls want' is not fixed. It's changing. I don't know why you can't accept that.

If this is the case the this is a non issue. People are going to do the things that they want to.

I have 4 kids of my own and coached, mentored, and cared for hundreds of other kids over the last 25 years. I'm sorry but boys and girls aren't that different now than when I was a kid. At least not as different as as some people would like to lead us or want people to believe.

Hmmm..... here's the thing. People are not that independent. They learn. If you've coached and mentored and found them to be the same, maybe it's you who are the constant in the equation.

I don't mean to say that kids don't have an independent will. Of course they do. But, at the same time that will is not 100% independent. If it were, your mentoring (and my teaching) would be futile.

What's X-Wing doing that is being gender exclusive? The only thing I can think of is just being a wargame.

My FLGS supports a lot of diverse player bases that come through. I've seen some women playing in X-Wing and gotten some who are Star Wars nerds interested in the game. I think the reason we don't see more X-Wing players is because culturally it is boys who are running around those back yards with action figures going 'pew pew'! X-Wing represents hardware in motion and women aren't usually drawn to hardware, I think. At least not from looking at the "girls aisle" in Target or Toys R Us.

I have the feeling that more women gamers might be drawn to D&D Attack wing simply because dragons are a more universal constant across both genders though ultimately rules complexity might push them away. We'll see?

Well, this is just the thread that refuses to die, isn't it? to disagree with the OP, I have a boy and a girl, boy age 7, girl age 4. They are different, very different. this should be obvious but we now live in a society where everything must be the same, but things are not the same, things can be different and still have equal value. My son loves to play at war, he loves things that are aggressive and dangerous, his friends are the same way. this is not something we have promoted, it is the nature of boys in general. my daughter likes pink, and dolls, and other things. yes, there is some overlap in things that they like as well, but she has no interest in playing war, unless it's in a tiara and a an evening gown, and that is ok. Women, for the most part, do not seem to have a lot of interest in this game, and that is ok. I am glad there are some that do, but they are the exception rather than the rule. It's a good thing that the sexes are different, and that by extension they like different things. Can we stop trying to solve something that really is not a problem in the first place? my unsolicited 2 cents.

No one was demanding girl only content, more female pilots (there are some already), or some kind of bizarre 'women always get initiative' rule.

Then why are you bringing it up? If no one is asking for that, and I agree no one has. Then why bring it up as if it has some bearing on this discussion.

Yet many of you seem to actively be opposed to that very idea.

I question your use of the word many. Because it seems most of us are quite willing to do what we can to make the community more inclusive. At most some of us don't believe the issue is with FFG so the discussion should be focused on what we can do.

We do have the capacity to speed up the degree to which our culture adapts to changing society.

I let my daughters play with whatever toy they wished to, and the same for my sons. I've done what I can. I have given demo's at my LGS and once one of them was a woman. I treated her exactly the same as I would any other person.

I fail to see how we can do anything more. If treating people with basic respect and courtesy isn't enough then there's nothing else we can do to attract them.

Well, you're clearly already doing what you can. Thanks!

To be fair, the OP placed the burden on FFG. And FFG can only really change the game and/or marketing (which is dedicated to niche markets). Luckily, it seems to have moved on beyond that for most posters.

Well, I do think that FFG might think about their marketing. If they take any message from this thread, I hope it's that.

Yes, the thread has diverted from its intent (somewhat), but what has surprised me has been the resistance. I'm not sure that this is a lucky thing, given that resistance. I had hoped that we would have been discussing more inventive ways to be more inclusive in the community.

In reply to the topic, the answer is simple. Invite your friends to play the game, regardless of gender.

Obviously, that it way oversimplified and it is by no means practical, but how often are you trying to coax a group of people into playing the game with you? I've met some very random types of people who play this game and for many, ( including myself) this is the first miniatures game they have played. Star Wars is almost universally considered popular and as such is considered "acceptable" to "like". It may just be that miniature games themselves have a way to go before people break the preconceived notion that only hard core nerds play miniatures games.

Remember, we as a community may be very accepting but the rest of modern culture has a long way to go before they can erase biases created before our time.

Well, this is just the thread that refuses to die, isn't it? to disagree with the OP, I have a boy and a girl, boy age 7, girl age 4. They are different, very different. this should be obvious but we now live in a society where everything must be the same, but things are not the same, things can be different and still have equal value. My son loves to play at war, he loves things that are aggressive and dangerous, his friends are the same way. this is not something we have promoted, it is the nature of boys in general. my daughter likes pink, and dolls, and other things. yes, there is some overlap in things that they like as well, but she has no interest in playing war, unless it's in a tiara and a an evening gown, and that is ok. Women, for the most part, do not seem to have a lot of interest in this game, and that is ok. I am glad there are some that do, but they are the exception rather than the rule. It's a good thing that the sexes are different, and that by extension they like different things. Can we stop trying to solve something that really is not a problem in the first place? my unsolicited 2 cents.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the two sexes are exactly the same. But, some of the differences that we take for granted may be a result of social conditioning. And it's perfectly normal for humans to socialize their kids. Society depends on it. I'm just saying that the differences between boys and girls may be coming from us, not from inherent, biological factors. For example, pink was not always a girly color

Yes, the thread has diverted from its intent (somewhat), but what has surprised me has been the resistance. I'm not sure that this is a lucky thing, given that resistance. I had hoped that we would have been discussing more inventive ways to be more inclusive in the community.

Not that surprising. It is similar to the true issue going on with video gaming. People get defensive when they are told something they like and enjoy is wrong and needs to be changed. Granted, I had a few higher expectations of the forum members, but I guess I forgot how the forum has been going down in quality for a while.

As for the marketing, how do they change what little of it they do. This is already a niche game. So, they have to market it to the niche. BGG is probably as good as it can get for women exposure.

I had hoped that we would have been discussing more inventive ways to be more inclusive in the community.

Well lets consider that... What can we do?

First and foremost, be respectful to everyone.

Use words and phrases that aren't in general offensive. I don't have to be a woman to find phrases like "I'm going to <blank>ing <blank> Wedge right in the <blank> kinda offensive.

I think that's to a point the extent of what we can do ourselves...

But here's a few ideas we could perhaps get LGS's to consider.

Better lighting and cleaner wide open playing areas. Walking into a game store that looks and sometimes smells like a dungeon isn't going to welcome anyone.

As a subset of that, being a guy in a small dark room filled with guys is unlikely to make me very uncomfortable. But the same is not true of most women. That's one thing that's nice about the FFG event center, it's wide open, clean and well lit, so it's less threatening to women in general I think.

Perhaps some sort of ladies night? Perhaps if you could get something going so it was 1 guy for every 3-4 or more woman, maybe they'd feel more comfortable. Or even better yet, find women who could demo the game, so it's all women that night.

As for the marketing, how do they change what little of it they do. This is already a niche game. So, they have to market it to the niche. BGG is probably as good as it can get for women exposure.

I think anything said about marketing here is really directed at the entertainment industries in general, not FFG specifically.

Not to mention having the staff dressed appropriately. And not have the entire store decorated like a teenager's room. Clean bathrooms are especially important.

Well, this is just the thread that refuses to die, isn't it?

Yup, it certainly is.

To disagree with the OP, I have a boy and a girl, boy age 7, girl age 4. They are different, very different. this should be obvious but we now live in a society where everything must be the same, but things are not the same, things can be different and still have equal value.

Look, don't paint me into a corner that I'm not inhabiting. I'm not calling for a must-be uniformity. I'm calling for the game to be more inclusive than it currently is. Nekomatafuyu 's post above makes the point of an imbalance of the statistics doesn't mean that there should be a dichotomous outcome. Just because more boys will naturally (or nurturally) be drawn to a wargame doesn't mean that no girls or women will be.

In my case, I was just as much boy as anyone, and my little sister was a girly-girl growing up. However, now she's wearing BDUs and showing army soldiers how to shoot. She talks about cars and trucks with more felicity than I can manage, whereas I'm being the feminist here.

I think this is a non issue with this game. Boys and girls are different and like different things. I don't know why people can't accept that.

I think the reason behind this particular problem is that "Men and women are different" or "White and black people are different" or other similar reasonings have been misused before now as justifications for discrimination. As a result a fair chunk of society have now swung too far in the opposite direction and now think even acknowledging any differences between the genders is sexism.

I suspect that part of the problem also lies in how bad most people are in understanding statistics. If we take for example the studies that have suggested that on average males have better spatial awareness (we won't argue whether or not they're true for the moment, but for the sake of example let's give them the benefit of the doubt):

- Some people have taken this to mean that all men are better than all women at tasks that require spatial awareness (and therefore claim that women can't drive, etc.)

- Some people claim that such studies are sexist, and that men and women can't possibly be any different from each other in such a way.

- Someone with a grasp of statistics would understand that if these studies are true, all it would mean is that the "average man" has better spatial awareness than possibly 51% of women, that the "average woman" could still have better spatial awareness than 49% of men, and that at the end of the day if a woman is still a better driver than a man they should be recognised as such.

Relating this to the game, it may be that less women are interested in this style of game than is the case with men. My answer to that is that there will still be plenty of women who are interested - as far as I'm concerned they're just as welcome to play the game as any guy, I'll try to beat them just as hard as I would any male opponent, and I'll accept my ass-whoopings off them just as graciously as I would from any male opponent.

Yes, agreed.

...with one exception - that being your analogy to the spatial awareness. I think with the spatial awareness you're talking about an aspect of nature, something which is much less malleable (but not totally unmalleable) than culture is.

Well, this game itself involves spatial awareness skill, as a good chunk of it comes down to maneuvering and being able to see when your and your opponents ships can be a turn ahead without being able to use your templates. If the above about spatial awareness is true, that in itself could be one reason why less women would want to play the game: Most people I know (both male and female) tend not to enjoy things they're not as good at.

That said, I do think more people should try things they're not as good at (or at least don't think they'll be good at). I've always been good at the sciences and poor at art, so for a good chunk of my life haven't even tried to do much art stuff. Since getting into My Little Pony (yes, I'm a guy into ponies ) I've started trying more art type activites: Some of which I still haven't gotten good at and which still frustrates me, but some of which I've actually turned out quite good at and which I now enjoy doing.

I'm calling for the game to be more inclusive than it currently is.

And I think here is where many people are calling 'shenanigans' - so perhaps we just need some clarity as to what exactly you are looking for.

Are you talking about player demographics? (if so, I think many people are answering that the issue is bigger than FFG or even Star Wars)

Are you talking about X-Wing as a game? (in terms of content, gameplay, etc...) - what does does 'inclusivity' look like in this case?

Well, this game itself involves spatial awareness skill, as a good chunk of it comes down to maneuvering and being able to see when your and your opponents ships can be a turn ahead without being able to use your templates. If the above about spatial awareness is true, that in itself could be one reason why less women would want to play the game: Most people I know (both male and female) tend not to enjoy things they're not as good at.

That's true, but not what I was getting at. Maybe we're talking past one another.

But, to cut to the chase on spatial awareness, I think that actually helps us get to an aspect of the problem we're dealing with - ' stereotype threat '. McGlone & Aronson (2006) suggest that the evidence that points to differences in spacial awareness may be the result of the female subjects being aware that they were being tested on something for which a stereotype exists, and performed less capably because of that notion.

According to them, as well as a host of others who study this subject, we could probably greatly diminish the stereotype threat that girls suffer by telling them that a) they don't have less spatial awareness, and that X-Wing players don't have that stereotype of women. (The latter, I hope, will be made be true.)

McGlone, M.S. & Aronson, J. (2006). Stereotype threat, identity salience, and spatial reasoning. Journal of Applied Developmental Psychology, 27 (5), 486–493.

I'm calling for the game to be more inclusive than it currently is.

And I think here is where many people are calling 'shenanigans' - so perhaps we just need some clarity as to what exactly you are looking for.

Are you talking about player demographics? (if so, I think many people are answering that the issue is bigger than FFG or even Star Wars)

Are you talking about X-Wing as a game? (in terms of content, gameplay, etc...) - again, I think most people are saying you need look no further than the fictional universe itself to find that it is a fairly white, male dominate universe. Short of creating new characters, what can they do?

To put my point as simply as I can: I want women to feel welcome playing our game.

I believe that the current imbalance is evidence that they don't. Yes, the issue is bigger, but I think that X-Wing is better poised to be more inclusive than most tabletop wargames are, and therefore I would like X-Wing to be in the vanguard of bringing more women into tabletop miniatures gaming. I think FFG have an interest in doing so, because it would mean more customers for them.

Also, Star Wars is changing, and as many posters above have already attested, whatever the flaws in the movies, women do feel drawn to the SWU. So, whatever flaws there may be in the SWU, those do not explain the imbalance we have in X-Wing.

The fact women pilots are at all included puts the game waaay ahead of the movies.

I would argue the bigger issue in gaming in general, not in the slightest exclusive to X-wing, is the general behaviours of a small portion of the population such as hyper aggression in gaming and poor hygiene. I have seen far more evidence that generally anti-social behavior prevents higher participation than anything overtly sexist.

That is not to say there are not ways to improve, just that there are likely bigger initial barriers which FFG is in no position to address in their product.

The fact women pilots are at all included puts the game waaay ahead of the movies.

I would argue the bigger issue in gaming in general, not in the slightest exclusive to X-wing, is the general behaviours of a small portion of the population such as hyper aggression in gaming and poor hygiene. I have seen far more evidence that generally anti-social behavior prevents higher participation than anything overtly sexist.

That is not to say there are not ways to improve, just that there are likely bigger initial barriers which FFG is in no position to address in their product.

Agreed - and I'm not calling on them to change their product, but do I think they could employ some smart scholars or marketing experts to help them in their marketing.

Again, I think that X-Wing is in a great place to be the tabletop game that can attract the female market. The SWU is already well-known to a much broader public in a way that the Warhammer IPs have no prayer of doing. X-Wing is also generally more accessible because it is cheaper and simpler to understand. (By 'generally', I do mean that this is not a gendered factor, but it lowers the overall barrier to entry.)

How can you relate the tabletop gaming experience and be short sighted enough to use the population that plays it as a "proof" that the game is not inclusive enough, instead of taking into account all the background that inherently barriers the interest of the majority of women, included SW fans, towards gaming, competitiveness and obvious already sausage fests activities.

If you think, there is something in the mechanichs of the game that actually makes it non inclusive to women, why don't you speak about it ? Because they don't exist.

@Vorpal About physical intimination, most men have suffered that in their lives too. If you meant sexual harassment, yes, that's true, and words as **** can be a big deterrent for women (i had met a few that felt that way, and while gaming i had to re-learn how to express myself even tho i didn't meant it that way). Of course this has nothing to do with the game, and society. We as a community can embrace being more inclusive, but we would only accept it if societal rules deems it is acceptable first.

If you meant fart ****, or bus **** and the kind of stupid ideas that has been some feminist spouting out of their mouths lately, consider me baffled.

I believe that the current imbalance is evidence that they don't.

I don't disagree, but I'm not sure I agree completely either. Would be quite happy to see more people enjoy this game. I also don't doubt that there are women out there who would like X-Wing but won't try it for a host of reasons.

Even then, it's simply a truism that not everyone will like this game regardless of any other factor. I mean neither of my sons have any interest in the game, even though they're both gamers like me. It's kinda like the number of jerks who play WoW... As a % it's no worse than any other MMO out there, but when you have 10,000,000 people even 4% is a large number.

So likewise when you have a fairly niche hobby like TT miniature gaming, a healthy % of women is still a fairly small number.

How can you relate the tabletop gaming experience and be short sighted enough to use the population that plays it as a "proof" that the game is not inclusive enough, instead of taking into account all the background that inherently barriers the interest of the majority of women, included SW fans, towards gaming, competitiveness and obvious already sausage fests activities.

If you think, there is something in the mechanichs of the game that actually makes it non inclusive to women, why don't you speak about it ? Because they don't exist.

Dude - you're clearly not reading what I am writing. I have on numerous occasions said that I don't think this has anything to do with the game. I do not want the mechanics changed (except as the game itself requires, by way of errata, etc.).

Also, it's quite evident that SW is not exclusive. SW has TONS of female fans. That's what we've also been saying. To add it on top, SW more generally (see Rebels) is also becoming more inclusive.

Regarding 'proof', maybe you're not witnessing what I am witnessing. Sure, I would expect there to be an imbalance - but the imbalance that we have is just overwhelming. The other factors you mention were also the case with other competitive-sausage-fest gaming hobbies, which have since opened up. There's no reason to believe why the same shouldn't be happening in our game.

I believe that the current imbalance is evidence that they don't.

I don't disagree, but I'm not sure I agree completely either. Would be quite happy to see more people enjoy this game. I also don't doubt that there are women out there who would like X-Wing but won't try it for a host of reasons.

Even then, it's simply a truism that not everyone will like this game regardless of any other factor. I mean neither of my sons have any interest in the game, even though they're both gamers like me. It's kinda like the number of jerks who play WoW... As a % it's no worse than any other MMO out there, but when you have 10,000,000 people even 4% is a large number.

So likewise when you have a fairly niche hobby like TT miniature gaming, a healthy % of women is still a fairly small number.

There's a ton of women who do play WoW. I have a female friend approaching 70 years old who LOVES WoW.

Okay, so I'm getting flack on the evidential aspect of my argument. Okay, so granted, it's hard to prove that we are out of balance because a) we don't have firm statistics about the actual ratio of play, or b) how many women would play if the game was as inclusive as it possibly could be. That said, my observation is that the ratio is about ten-to-none. The rest of the evidence of a lack of inclusivity is anecdotal. Whatever evidence I lack is also the case on the nay-sayer side. I believe we should err on the side of inclusivity, rather than the reverse.

Beyond that, my social-sciency sense (and I do have an advanced degree in this stuff) is telling me gender inclusivity is a global issue that has huge implications on society, and our society is not as far in the vanguard as we could be. There are no concrete reasons to believe that women wouldn't get the same fun out of this game as guys get, and there are plenty of reasons to believe that if we were more inclusive, more women would be attracted to playing the game.

Well, this game itself involves spatial awareness skill, as a good chunk of it comes down to maneuvering and being able to see when your and your opponents ships can be a turn ahead without being able to use your templates. If the above about spatial awareness is true, that in itself could be one reason why less women would want to play the game: Most people I know (both male and female) tend not to enjoy things they're not as good at.

That's true, but not what I was getting at. Maybe we're talking past one another.

But, to cut to the chase on spatial awareness, I think that actually helps us get to an aspect of the problem we're dealing with - ' stereotype threat '. McGlone & Aronson (2006) suggest that the evidence that points to differences in spacial awareness may be the result of the female subjects being aware that they were being tested on something for which a stereotype exists, and performed less capably because of that notion.

According to them, as well as a host of others who study this subject, we could probably greatly diminish the stereotype threat that girls suffer by telling them that a) they don't have less spatial awareness, and that X-Wing players don't have that stereotype of women. (The latter, I hope, will be made be true.)

McGlone, M.S. & Aronson, J. (2006). Stereotype threat, identity salience, and spatial reasoning. Journal of Applied Developmental Psychology, 27 (5), 486–493.

Ah, in which case yes, there may well be issues with those studies - I was trying to stress that I wasn't necessarily stating those specific studies as fact, but rather using them as examples that men and women can be different, and how that can be without necessarily being discrimination.

That said, I really don't think that the gaming community itself is the major source of such stereotype threats, but rather parents and other guardians, followed by the person's peer group as they grow older.

Interesting story I read about a while back (sadly, I can't remember where):

One parent had the attitude towards his son that his son had access to both "male" and "female" toys, and he could play with whatever he like. When invited to a fancy dress party, the son wanted to go as a princess, and so he did. The interesting part it which reactions came from which people: all the kids were all "woah, nice dress!" and loved the costume to bits, whilst it was the parents who were all full of indignation and telling the father what a terrible parent he was.

Sadly, it's the parents who are usually the true criminals in such matters

The other factors you mention were also the case with other competitive-sausage-fest gaming hobbies, which have since opened up.

Have they?

Do more women play video games now, then in the 1980's or 90's? Sure there's no question. But what types of games are they playing?

The Sims was a massive success because it reached an untapped market, women who had at least a passing interest in video games. I knew a number of them who played and enjoyed the Sim's but had zero interest in other games.

MMO's also has tapped into the female market, but again I know a number of women who play MMO's but wouldn't even consider playing Call of Duty.

So saying women are into competitive games is something you'll need to provide some evidence for, because while you see a lot of them playing MMO's and such, I don't think there's all that many playing FPS, MOBA, or even RTS type games.

Edit: RPG's on the other hand, I think were largely boys only due in large part to how women were portrayed in the marketing and artwork... When that changed you started to see more women playing them.

The point, is that imbalance is actually perfectly normal with any other gaming areas where there is competition and nerdiness, like videogames. There is absolutely nothing that tells you "it is proof" that it is not inclusive enough, because you are putting the fault at the small ecosystem instead of the big one that drives them out. But meh, i am done with this trash threads.

If you want to look statistics about 1on1 games female population , and for example MMORPGs (PvE of course) or team oriented games population, you will see a massive disparity. Do you think it is also the games themselves (and the ones playing them) at fault ? Or could you possibly imagine that there is something bigger at the background in our society that makes women not as competitive ? (And by competitive i don't mean that they can't compete, but that is a trait which is regarded negatively for women in our society for the most part)

Or could you possibly imagine that there is something bigger at the background in our society that makes women not as competitive ? (And by competitive i don't mean that they can't compete, but that is a trait which is regarded negatively for women in our society for the most part)

I think one only has to look at the participation numbers of females in all levels of athletics and sports to see that this might be conflating the issue a bit. We should not be asking 'are women not as competitive' but - 'why aren't women as "apparently" interested in competitive table top war games with tiny toy spaceships?"