Again a lot of the analysis is built of a play group as a whole is going to spend monely on cards invidually or as a group for the betterment of a team to advance people in high level tournaments. That is unrealistic for a lot of us. My playgroup is four people. We do not have that type of economic flexablity. I have spent the most out of all of them which is about 200 dollars. Out of what I have I couldn't hand over my cards to any vet and them go 50/50 at any tournament. I didn't go out and research 5 ways to sunday what was in the cutting edge and domination starters and packs. I just bought some boosters with characters I liked. When I went online I went for cards I heard on the podcast that were must haves. I soon found myself with a close to 300 dollar card bill. To get myself some type of diversity in my collection and to build my Chae deck I dropped a lot of power rares so I could get more options. I got down to close to a 100 dollars to be resonable. Thing was ebay was charging a dollar per card minum because of EBay's bull rules on pricing. I've looked at various options and it still very costly to get good cards. Like I said before its hard to believe the game can be creative and cheap or even threaten top meta when it is not modeled. It is then easy to believe it can't be done. One can invest little to have fun. One has to invest a ton to win.

Tuesday said:

Just a heads-up dawg, I was saying you don't deeply investigate people's arguments as to why certain cards are troublesome. The fact that you did nothing more than list your UFS history only makes you look like that much more of an ignorant ******.

Also, try listing some RECENT events. I'm so happy to hear of your constant globetrotting back in the day, but if you're going to list your history, try to make it time-relevant, mostly because I haven't ever heard of you until one of the regionals reports.

It's admirable you are constantly seeking challenges. Really, I'm not being facetious, I appreciate your general love for facing uphill battles.

However, you are in the minority who feel the same way. Most people don't like facing such game-disparaging cards if they otherwise wouldn't have to. Sure, I've defeated countless F&G Hugos and Higher Calibur **Ibuki**s with **Genjuro**. GENJURO of all characters! ...but...that isn't to say that the match was fun .

There will be SOME new players who, eating a ton of cheap, undercosted, unfair asshattery will respond with such comments as, "Dude, this game is so fast-paced, sign me up!"

Most, however, will be discouraged from joining due to the BS. Let's not forget the price increase, and the fact that we don't have reliable customer service ever since STG left.

darklogos said:

Your last statement is logical, this isn't a dice off. investment=time=money=investment... + effort=sucess, without this formula there would be more complaints, trust me on this.

The first statement I bet I can prove you wrong. With what you have (you spent $200 all willy nilly?), and a directed $100 (which is less than most dates), I would argue any vet (I'm not a vet, so if I am confident I can do it, you should think vets could) could build a deck that could go 50/50 or better at a major tourney. All we'd have to do is sit on the side of the effort seesaw above and I gaurantee it is more than possible. And that is why UFS is a great game.

Actually, if you want to take me up on it, I will do it for the regional here in Calgary in a month's time - that would actually be kind of fun. (Sorry, I won't run Chae, becuase I can't make a bad card good <no offense>, but I can make a good deck with cheap stuff, there are a ton of great cheap character cards). And believe you me, all the other players in my group will be running the money cards.

Regarding playgroups, there is the whole forums - so it is realistic. What do you think you 'need'? I have extras of a lot of what I think you might not have. In a lot of cases all you have to do is ask. i.e. I'd send you 4 Makai High Noble, 4 psycho style, other uncommons or starter exclusives etc. no questions asked. I also have like 4+ Olcadon's that I need to get rid of (I have 10 for two people, and I am maxing at 2-3 in most competitive decks recently). Sorry for derailing, but sersly, email me and expand your playgroup into the realm of the interveb for shares and trades.

- dut

MarcoPulleaux said:

Even then, we didn't have it there either.

how much money you spend on the game also depends on the symbol you are running i have 3 decks built right now 2 of which i actually have with me(the other is at my gamestore).....anyways though i figured out how much each of them are worth so to speack and my sigfried deck running off of earth was only about 50 bucks for all the cards and the only real hard to get cards it runs are amys assistance and rev's calling most of the other cards are commons and uncommons...ive also won the last 3 tourneys i played with that deck its beastin

second is my evil/chaos zhao deck its an evil deck which im fairly sure is one of the money symbols right now and the deck is somewhere in the 200-250 dollar range with the chesters and the owl faces and the rejections and such.....but i dont have a playset of BRTs like i would want to run in the deck so that would make it more like 350ish

what im saying though is that if your trying to build cheaply then you have to figure out what the best symbols are to run a decent cheap deck you cant expect to play any deck or any symbol with such a limited card pool it just doesnt work focus on one thing and get what you need

Trading online is a great way to get cards for your playgroup thats what i do and it got my 2 of my chesters and 2 darkness blades i traded cards that i didnt even care about running or that i wouldnt run in the future to make my decks better it can be done it just takes patience

its like if i just started skateboarding last week and i practiced everyday for that week i might be getting good but im still not goin 2 compete with the guys that have been doing it for years it just wont happen and thats the same way in card games you just have to take your time

I hope some of this helps at all

I payed about 200 total including the starters and stuff in the store and online. Thing is i like earth. Earth plays like how i play. The problem is that Earth is not a prime symbol to play but some cards I want from earth cost more then I expected. I like damage reduction and healing. Earth has a lot of cards like that. Picking up evil cards are expensive because evil is really strong. I saw Chae and I thought that healing and damage buff would be cool. I even saw the article on the candadian site and I tried to get as many of those cards as possible. Then everyone says she sucks. So now I've wasted money on cards for a character that is not worth playing. I got a Sakura deck , Sagat deck, and a Homamru deck. Hom deck is more of a fun deck. Thing is that I can't even find out what I need to do to get promo's for my shop. I emailed Hata and got no feedback. If he is the wrong guy then who do I need to contact? There are a lot of frustrating things.

MarcoPulleaux said:

CAN nats and UK potm not recent enough for you?

darklogos said:

I'm pretty sure you need to register as a Scout and operate a league/OP system. I'm not a Scout and can't say for sure though.

Sagat (I assume starter) is definately competitive off of Earth, very much so.

From what it sounds like you have my offer still stands to build a deck out of your cards + very little money and try it out at a regional. If it performs well, who knows maybe I will update it a bit more (and with little money) and take it to worlds ^^

i.e. I like Earth too

The cards you have aren't a waste of money, they likely go well in any Earth deck, and if you bought the ones I think you should have you probably have a decent fire deck in wait, and maybe even another symbol you just don't see yet.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind working with you and what you have to build a competitive deck, it is always fun to build decks and share thoughts with new players.

- dut

I got aproved as a scout and i got no feedback in how to get prize support or qualify for it. I'm a bit lost on what to do.

Moaning about moaning is funny.

Trolls is now outdated. Zombie should be the name for board moaners. No thought, no intent just "Baaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnssssssss". Followed by gratuitous splattering of bodily fluids.

Cetonis said:

Couple things.

1. You're wrong. Ask the event organizers to get some numbers to you on that. I know the MWCC has numbers on every card run. Care to average out the number of attacks run? And, if they still exist, I know I can get my hands on the one from our regional, since the organizer is my roommate. As an additional rebuttal - I'll do you one better, so as to quote our top 8. Not one of the decks was running 3-7 attacks. I know of at least one that was running around 20 (made top 4), the second place deck had 16, and so on. The winning deck was using 11 attacks.

As such, it's a safe bet, if your aim is to lose said bet.

2. Why should they be any less successful than decks with many attacks? UNIVERSAL Fighting System refers to more than just the licences. Different options is what makes things interesting. "Different strokes to rule the world".

3. Wrong. Those cards were banned because they were ridiculously overpowered, not because they backed a OTKO theory.

Yes, the ideal is that the game get back toward its roots, with decks running more attacks. However, there's no reason why decks packing fewer attacks shouldn't be successful. If the aim is to steer things towards more orange, then logically, it's HARDER to win with less of it, and, as such, the player who does so must obviously be very, very good.

This goal was also created AFTER those cards were banned, soooo...that argument lacks any merit whatsoever.

Nothing personal, of course. I just find this particular mindset frustrating and annoying. It reminds me of our player who quit (our ONE player who quit) because he said he "wasn't impressed with set 12 and that it did nothing to make the game any better". The way he backed out still ticks me off, and I've yet to tear him the new one he so richly deserves for doing so. (yes, YOU, Robert)

Anyway. This is silly.

Matt is very right - people are nothing in person like they are on the boards, from what I've seen. Except Omar. Omar's exactly how you'd imagine him, except moreso, and with a hat and blinged out Voldo necklace.

Lastly - lol @ Duckman

MegaGeese said:

1. Omar's mill deck ran 11 attacks? Okay, fair enough. I had assumed that wasn't the case. However - taking nothing away from the players who placed of course - from the card breakdown it doesn't appear that the low-attack loop/lock decks were out in any kind of force. (though there was a 4 attack defender loop Kyoshiro that took third, despite defender loop being generally the least reliable option) So of course the attack heavy decks would top since there were very few attack light decks. And just because people at that particular regional didn't play them, doesn't mean the best decks in the format aren't still comprised mostly of 3-7 attack builds. At least, that's what I've been led to believe over the past couple months of tourney reports. If you disagree then we simply disagree, but I can only see so many kick loop, spinta lock, spiral lock, spike, combo mill, etc. decks before coming to believe they're the cream of the crop right now in addition to ML/KB decks and a certain style of ChunLi/Mignon air decks.

2/3. Actually, I recall Steve talking about getting the game away from control as early as last year's US nats, it was the CSS and mill decks there that basically triggered that ideal. (though that's semantics) And I also recall him saying things roughly along the lines of decks with 3 or 6 attacks shouldn't be widely successful. I simply take him at his word, and feel that if that's a goal they want to see happen in block 3 than it appears evident that something needs to be done besides printing good-but-reasonable attack-encouraging cards.

If it makes you feel any better, I am impressed with set 12 and do think it's going to do a lot to help this game, albeit moreso next rotation (or post-potential-future-bannings) than right now. Though still it has brought us one set of attacks that have been able to compete, some solid techy stuff, a favorite underdog in Astrid and a couple other things.

You know based on what he said in the very first post I feel 100% comfortable in agreeing with you! People often complain when its to hard to deal with. I was around for Higher Calibur and Ibuki and CSS. You know what I did? RAN Impetious to blow up Calibur, Used Night Terror and Tag along to deal with Ibuki, and Power of the Edge and *Nightmare* to deal with CSS! People the answers are out there to cards! YOU NEED to LOOK for them! which is the point of a fun game! To become smarter than the avrage player! Look people complain about Chester's Backing, My answer to it? Intolerant of Failure People complain about bitter Rivals, COMMIT IT. BRT? COMMIT IT! Or blow it up. Feline Spike? with power of the edge being put back into play I LOL WUT at it. Spinta? LOL WUT. When I teach people how to play I do let them know what cards are most popular in tournaments, Why? Because it makes them want to BUY this game to play it! If they know Knight Breaker is Super Hard to get! then they buy 3 maybe 4 box's. So what if they are doing a cookie cutter deck! Magic has survived this and I feel UFS can to. Stop with all the bannings and Errata's because with the 4 mark cycling out next year Everyone will be happy! So just deal with it until then...

MegaGeese said:

Geese, you are extremely quiet. Holy crap >_> XD

Also, at Worlds, you have to wear a pink gi. No complaining now.

sir_shajir said:

*whistles innocently*

Cetonis said:

Sadly the whole "Grin and bear it" mentality makes it seem like something is wrong and that its better to wait out the bad then to fight the bad. Thing that has been proven by the last few tourney reports I've seen is that counter meta isn't strong. Not playing certain symbols and not playing certain attacks seem to be more costly then running anti-meta cards. This leads me to believe that something needs tinkering. There have been good arguments to why stuff shouldn't be banned but at the same time there is an indication that some things in the current meta aren't positive. I will say that waiting almost a whole year can cost the game more new players then it may be worth. The two strongest arguments I've seen is the social effects of banning x card (ie how many people will walk if this card is banned) and banning before major tournaments is bad because of all the play testing that has been done. One thing I think the game needs to look at is either reducing hp or increasing it. You can increase it to stop one shots or decrese it to make attacks that have nice effects and low damage worth playing. Sadly I keep having still dragon come up in my head. The last thing that needs to be restricted greatly is effects that don't require an attack to land. By making effects take place if the attack lands it makes people have to pack more attacks and it makes it so that lock out and control is automatically guranteed.

Interesting thoughts DL. Grin and bear it is bull. As often as I preach patience, I am really saying it will become 'even' better. And therefore, those that can't stand the here and now will adequately have a chance to enjoy it in the future.

Walking isn't a good argument. It is an ultimatum. If these people are so close that walking is their only option... Well they need to try something new with different cards and to begin with. There are some strongest deck types out there , but you need to experiment and understand what works for you and what doesn't to truly be a top player, because the meta will always change, and you need to know every card and strategy to be the best.

The biggest part of any game is knowing your priorities. I hope your priorities are the following:

1. Have fun. Who cares if you win, if you just used a commonly known the 'best of the best' and didn't have fun, what did you really earn? You need to push yourself to find a 'better' in any game you play. There is always a better, that is the number one rule of life. This is what will set you apart from your peers, your constant struggle to enjoy yourself will payoff the greatest dividends.

2. Help other people have fun. We aren't selfish creatures, the more people that enjoy themselves, the more people that will play and the more you can satisfy your #1 priority.

3. Suceed with dignity and respect. Some of the best UFS players I know, from Olexa to Herr, Hata, Tuesday, Nixon, MegaGeese, Polka. Kohls, Ray, Shajir, Macek, Nick, (whoever) and countless others - these people are the face of UFS and play and win with attitudes that stem from hard work. You can't be a part of the hall of fame without earning your fame from others and yourself.

There isn't a great need to change the rules, there is always a great need to change the attitude of certain players that don't have the gumption to suceed. If you are truly coming into this game wanting to do your best, you will do your best, and regardless of the result, regardless of your placement, you will be fulfilled. Change is sometimes good, and sometimes bad, but 'rarely' is it needed to fulfill your own desires... Bannings and erratas are a function of a gaming society and and don't reflect that there is something wrong, but merely indicate the common desire for change brought forth by vocal individuals and common results (to both you need to respect).

I hope that I'm not just rambling idealistic pixies, what I trust Tuesday intended to accomplish with this thread, and what I know is what this game and all 'games' need, is a strong breath of optimism. No one likes a moaner, hell - the moaner can't even stand himself (we've all been there). As a relatively new player you need to understand that the game is mature enough to breed opinions, and you are either a) able to grin and bear the opinions, or b) satisfy your first priority, which is what Fantasy Flight and their games are all about, a reprieve from the day-to-day, a challenge and a dose of fun - one that I hope I and many others will get to share with you. (also, I am an avid video game fan, hence the love for UFS)

- dut

Cetonis said:

O no, I've no idea about the MWCC. I meant our regional here in Texas xD (my Donovan that took it ran 11 attacks)

Eh...I don't remember back that far, so I'll concede that one xD

Also, low attack count decks WILL fail on the merit of just two cards at this point - the Wonderworld RFG asset (I can never remember which is which) and the soon-to-be-back Power of the Edge. Booyah. Personally, I don't like superlow attack counts myself, but I do like my actual number of checks 3 and lower to be no higher than about 15. But I like control, soooo...it's to be expected that I normally run about 11 attacks plus Seal in my decks, and occasionally techy bits like Yoga Adept or Turnabout (which is insanely awesome, and I love Kirk for bringing it to the forefront).

Shinji - eh, more or less. I'm like that when left to my own devices...really only talk when I've something to say to someone, and I only get super chatty when I'm excited about something/having fun/whatever. Hence my sequestered jury silences when we got home the one night, and my chattiness the next day at venue.

Dut - to quote James Hata: "I'm just a bad player..." Thanks for the kind words, though. I definitely agree with your three priorities, and the order in which they come, too. Having fun should be paramount, and helping people comes next. It's impossible to have fun if the other guy isn't. And the most fun of all comes from those heart-pounding moments that come from games that are won and lost on who makes the first mistake - two people going all out and giving it everything they've got. Playing your best doesn't require the expensive cards and crap like that - all it requires is hard work and some faith in yourself and your deck. The game is 15% the deck, 5% chance, and 80% mental. If you got a crappy night's sleep, or didn't sleep at all, it's gonna affect your playing. If you've been under a lot of stress, that does, too. If you've psyched yourself out thinking "oman, I'm gonna lose", that doesn't help. And the psychological mind games of getting into your opponent's head and keeping them out of yours falls into this category as well.

Stuff like this is why I really don't care about bannings. It alters the play environment, which forces people to adjust. That's never bad. I don't like losing my tools, but I always get over it. They banned a bunch of my favorites last year, and I'm not pissed about it (but I'd love it if they brought Rank and Revitalize back, haha). I'd be annoyed if iSpin was banned, but I'd just find a new attack to abuse. All part of the game!

MegaGeese said:

sorry to say, but some decks do not have the tools to compete. To say it is 15% the deck is doing a disservice to deckbuilding.

Ah, moaning...

How can you suggest getting rid of such a time honoured tradition in the UFS community?!

In all seriousness, it does seem like public outcry leads bannings/errata in this game. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mean that in a critical way - who better to judge the cards than the people that play with them? Understanding fully that FFG's resources are far from infinite and are split between a large array of products, I think it's perfectly understandable (and arguably even necessary for the game to survive) that they use the consumers to do the majority of playtesting for their cards. When I'm buying a booster pack, to my knowledge I'm not signing some sort of contract that says that they can't do that.

Because of this, I think it's reasonable to assume that at least in part the moaning is necessary in order for cards that need attention to get looked at. It can certainly be suggested that some people could post their criticisms in a more constructive, calculated way, but that really isn't for me to judge.

I personally like the challenge of playing in a format with cards that people consider to be 'broken' whether I'm playing with them or finding a way to counter them. Usually banning one thing leads to something else becomes overly prominent, especially in a large card pool so I just don't waste my time and try to enjoy the game as is. At the end of the day, it is just a game of cards and certainly in my opinion nothing to get too rattled about. That said, I understand totally that some people are much more serious about the game and want to take things into their own hands when they feel that the 'meta' is taking a turn for the worse.

On a side note, there have been dozens of these threads over the years, and the only thing they ever led to is a load of moaning (ironic, huh?). Getting people to put down their moan-mallets is a lost cause - trust me. Just roll with it.

"Matt is very right - people are nothing in person like they are on the boards, from what I've seen."

I have Asperger Syndrome, so I actually often wonder about this. I know I come off as more of a **** on forums than I mean to. A lot .

edit: I guess you could call this post "The Reveal" since something like that isn't really something you assume about a person, no matter how much you interact with them... though I'm pretty sure at least a few people here think I'm not quite right in the head.

Tagrineth said:

we're posting on the forums. we're ALL not quite right in the head.

Tagrineth said:

Let me be the first to say - Yes you do.

Zombies moans a lot.