i understand that a lot of people like to troll forums and moan continusly about cards that should be banned/errata's, because they are broken,stupid,boring,they don't own any. i do understand that stronger decks will put new players off a game if they see a certain deck just win, however when introducing new players to the game play a couple of fun deck tournaments. i never play my tournament level decks at locals if i can help it however when it comes to the big events (potm final, nats, team nats, regonals) i wanna do well which means playing with my best deck.

just because we have seen a large number of the same charaters in the big tournaments in the last few months when has that been any different, would it change with bans, no we would find new strong characters and decks to run, then there would be more moaning. Every game has a meta and this is another one with a meta, a meta that will change at the latest every year which i now look forward to because it means i will have to think about a whole new idea for that meta and thats what keeps me playing. How to beat these strong decks in the format not to make them weaker and then beat them.

Listen to this man.

He speaks the truth.

He is wise, he has crossed oceans, and with crossing oceans comes wisdom!

The notion that it's natural to have some group of top decks that place most of the time is true in theory, but the problem is that right now those decks are almost all control decks that run 3-7 attacks, which is not how UFS should be, and not how FFG wants UFS to be.

in addition to what Cetonis said...

Dude, you can't just say, "Get over it/Work around it/Try new decks", because the same could always be said during the days of now-banned cards such as Zasalamel, Ibuki, Higher Calibur, and CSS.

I wasn't playing during Zasalamel's reign, but I was during the last 3, and I can easily tell you all 3 had counters and ways to be defeated.

Of course, as I've said, and have always been proven right about, creating giant lists of counters means next to nothing. More often than not, the decks running banned cards or banworthy cards not only are faster than the counters used against them, but broken deck #1 not only has amazing card A, but when you use your counter A, broken deck #1 will almost always have a counter B to back up their amazing card A.

We're not just boohooing because we're sore losers, or because we're bored, or because we simply like to "troll". No, it's because certain cards have certain issues. Bitter Rivals, for example, has plenty of issues that both players and FFG (educated guess) want gone. It's a free ability, which isn't good. It can change zones of any attacks at no cost (and reveals both player's hands in the process), and it has discard potential.

Back in the day, only ***Tira*** could have all of her attacks deal damage. Now, anybody who can run Bitter Rivals has one such opportunity. What's more, Bitter Rivals has a hearty LOL at all the anti-discard it doesn't hit, and ROFLs at the much complained about Chester's Backing.

So, Mr Tuesday, instead of just following the heard of, "QUIT YER BITCHING!", try investigating deeper.

I've always said since it came out that Undercover Agent is one of THE best cards EVER made, as it stops such things as Bitter, Defender, etc, cold in its tracks. However, as I'd said earlier, just because Undercover Agent is one of the best counters around doesn't stop it from being no only Olcadan's'd, but from being a major card to be Red Lotus'd/Chester'd/Cessation'd, etc.

BR is utterly the most broken card in the game lol

no commit, no unique... blah

OhSteven said:

Cetonis said:

Go recheck your math, because it's very, very off.

Also, please to not be forgetting your current Canadialand champ's deck, which has the most utterly insane control numbers I think I've ever seen.

humm investigating deeper u say go on then how many major tournaments do u think i have played in seen,

started playing as soon as the game was released was around to see zaslamel reign (my god was that a cool deck but boring to play), yes he did diserve the ban (however i feel he should be unbanned in legacy another story). Played in as many fop events as i could get to while cassy was played (didn't run her but was a great challenge to face, really enjoyed it), was not too fussed when she was banned. Played in first uk nats when scott won that was epic, all the aop i could make went to sweden and played in their first nats (which i won) went to the second uk nats when j.j won (his tycho deck was so much fun to play against due to u having to play as well as u can just to have a chance), went to sweden again (j.j won with athena) team nats then went happy holidays and addes and others some i aggree with others i don't.

All that time constant top 8's of similar charaters but all i wanted to do was find the best way for myself to get better and have a chance against these decks made me wanna play harder.

This year have been to 2 regionals planning on going to another, sweden again canada nats, POTM final and i will be going to the uk nats and i love the challenge of all these strong cards and strong decks even more. They make me wanna acheive and playing against the best with the best decks they can come up with makes me wanna win that little bit more.

I wanna come to world's money pending but if i'm gunna walk into a room full of people who just moan about the game instead of having a huge amount of fun i'll same my money.

If i still haven't done my investigating then sorry but what have u done????

guitalex2008 said:

Broken doesn't mean overpowered.

Tuesday said:

Tuesday said:

Everything else aside, I completely disagree with this.

At Worlds last year the UFS players made me feel very welcome and I have nothing but respect for the American playerbase. What you read on the forum does not reflect these players, their skills and their attitude towards the game.

i really want that to be true matt as i would love to go over there and have a fantastic time, all the guys i met at can nats were fantastic but when you look at these forums somtimes u do wonder why.

Tuesday said:

Consider the list of players who have won character card or character card level events. Then count the number of decks in the deck building forum and tournament reports in GD or the reports section written by these players. You can probably count this on one hand.

MegaGeese said:

I didn't say every, I said almost every, because I know there are a few exceptions - that Mignon, Zi Mei, Jon Herr and some builds of Chun-Li. Just about everything else is < 8 attacks. If one were to list the top 4 of recent regionals/nationals (top 8 would be misleading since many of them only had 16-24 people) and the number of attacks they ran, it's a safe bet the vast majority of them would be in the 3-7 range. Even if it were somehow a mere half, the goal/ideal is that these sort of decks should not be successful on any kind of regular basis. The aim is to have a game about playing series of attacks over multiple turns, not looping, or locking, or OHK-ing, or combo-milling or any of that. If this is how they wanted UFS to be, they wouldn't have banned Happy Holidays or CSS or any of that stuff last summer.

Tuesday: Most of these so-called "whiners" are making their criticisms because they love this game and want it to get back on track - away from the gray wars that have plagued it for the past year and a half, and back to being a game about attacks. It's not about being negative, or being unwilling to try and beat ridiculous cards, or being bitchy/stupid or any of that, it's about making the game we all love better. So no, arguments on the boards don't really carry over into what you see at events firstly because everyone is there to play and have fun doing so. Secondly, when the topics do come up at events, it's much much easier to see someone make a passing remark on a forum and unilaterally interpret it as nothing but a bunch of "stupid whining" than it is when you're talking to them face to face and seeing the tone and attitude they actually have towards the game. Ultimately, any interpretation of what people are like based on debates on the forums and how they actually are in real life are often going to be worlds apart. They don't say UFS has the best community out there for no reason.

First of all. The irony of this topic name and post contents does not require any attention, becuase it would/could be too humorous.

There is a difference between a) seeing something do okay and pushing to make it do 'better', i.e. this is caring for something, and b) complaining about something in light of it not being conducive to a fun experience, i.e. this is being selfish and demanding something change for you.

I would like to say most of the posts on the forums fall under category a). However, I agree with you Tuesday, they often do not and there seems to be repeat b) offenders.

I don't think that calling people out, and trying to blatantly address b) with a post like this is all that constructive. I also don't think attaching attitudes to regions of play is in the interest of the game. I have seen just as many 'moaners' and posts across the pond, across the border, as I do in my own backyard (you know who you are ^^), people are people, and naturally mistakes are made everywhere.

What is contsructive is focusing on what can be added (not removed) from the game to make it better. As players we should focus on additions rather than fixes to problems and let the big boys handle what is. We need to drive the future of the game , whether it be conciously playing on even levels with new players or promoting the game on the forums and in real life by attending events and giving demos we, we need to do what we can.

I also 100% agree that banning is not a solution, rather it is a 'change'. There will always be a best, there will always be a better, all banning cards does it change the dynamic of this scenario. Sometimes change is good, sometimes it is bad, in any case it is interesting ^^

Some stupid philosophy:

There are two ways for 1) to become better than 2), the first involves 1) bettering itself, the second involves 1) belittling or detracting from 2) to the point where 1) is relatively better off than 2). I would say that most of the moaning you are trying to address falls in the latter category of ways for 1) to better oneself.

Postive attitude and constructive posts go much much further to better this game than constant and targeted criticism of specific detractors.

And on that note, I agree with your topic. Get postive people!!! con season is upon us <- cannot contain excitement

- dut

I'm new to the game. I could be considered one of the "moaners" because as a new player I see major problems from an outsider looking in. When a game that has several sets out has certain cards or peices hit the top of major tourneys then there is a problem. When people who are fans of the game tell you that you "need" x card to win then there is a problem. When you listen to a podcast sponsered by the company and the same cards get mentioned over and over again you have a problem. When a game designer throws game balance out the window and that set isn't highly errated or restricted latter then you have a problem. When you have cards like feline spike who have the "multiple ability" you have a problem. I've ran games for various gaming companies as a judge/scout. This is one the most hands off lassie-farie envoirment to play in. The fun part of that is that majority of your stuff is legal. The bad part of that is that the game has a hard time growing without powercreep set after set making the old stuff suck.

Thing is most of the problems that are going on could be solved with rule erratas. The biggest would be that a multiple attack looses 2 points of damage does min of 1 after each succession. Control checks can be limited to 5-6 cards tapped per turn. There can be requirments of how many attacks you have to put in your deck. (People disagreed with this when I posted this idea before. But if the meta moves towards attacks then you are forced to do so anyway. Why not make it a rule.) I could go on for a bit.

The community size is small for this game. So it feels like its close and all that because you see a lot of the same people over and over again. Small community is not always a bad thing. But again at the same end it is a community that can't afford to loose players as much as other games. I just got into this game. I like the game. Heck I signed up to run a round robin at my shop. But I am not going to any major events period because the deck cost to even compete is almost 200+ dollars. The cheapest deck I tried to replicate that was in the top 8 in the last few major tournament cost me 187 dollars. It can be said "Well thats just card games." I could respond that is some tcg card games not all card games, and high cost doesn't mean its a better game.

Sorry Darklogos, I have to respond. I've read your other posts, and quite frankly I didn't consider them moaning... However, the money argument really grinds my gears.

Who told you that you 'need x' card to win? I want him to tell me what card it is?

The point is, you definately don't need to spend a lot of money on cards to play and compete in UFS. Of course, there is always going to be a 'better', and there is always going to be an argument about what is better or worse, and if there becomes an agreed upon best (which I assume anyone with a brain in their head would use if they are playing to win) than you can't fault the economy for pushing it's price up.

Definately, definately, do you not need a certain card to win. There are a zillion cheap answers to strong cards, and there are a zillion cheap cards that can cause any deck problems.

For the record, I played in my first major event (worlds 2008) and I didn't have any of the 'best' cards as you are putting it and I won just fine. Well, I went 3-3-1 and roughly top third which is a-ok for a first attempt and I used the 'good' symbol (well I actually tri-symboled it with death and chaos) and a character with an ability I liked. But the bottom line is I had fun.

So please refrain from saying things like you 'need x' to play/win, it just doesn't hold water with people who play hard and have fun with stuff that is competitive but not the norm.

You seem to have a real hard on for the multiple ability as well. There are so many answers to multiples it isn't even funny, and all of them cheap. And yes, I would say a least favorite ruling has a lot to do with this - printed zero means answers to multiples - so perhaps your comments are beyond their time.

There are some undercosted/powerful cards in the enviroment some of which want change, but I'll be damned if I couldn't build a common grounds deck that can't compete with them in some respect of the word (obviously some promos help, and this rewards players who play more often, and these are easily acessible for the most part).

I'm glad you are a new player, and I am happy that you are enjoying the game. I just really hate to see you upset becuase you have it in your head that there is a certain cost that you must pay for sucess with the game of UFS, that just isn't at all the truth. Unfortuantely, the truth is the game carries a bit of a learning curve, and listening to players that have the 'card x beats all other' mentality can rub off on you quite easily when you are new.

Please hang in there, I'm actually quite sure the changes to the game will be made sooner than later becuase as a player of a year I can see the progression made Whether it is quick change with rulings/bans/erratas or progressive change with implementing new sets that have a steady target, I am sure we will all continue to enjoy the game to it's fullest.

- dut

Dark Logos, not every deck has to be super expensive. Look at my nationals deck -Shajir's Gill lock or go to teamcanadaonline.net , apart from blood runs true, seal of cessation and olcadans, the other cards aren't really that hard to obtain. It's mostly commons and uncommons and 1 set of ultra-rares that aren't really in that much demand. Yes the deck costs a bit of money to make now i guess, but i got my seals around 2 years ago when i went to random promo tournaments and i got my olcadans as a release card last year. I spent 100 bucks on my four brt's around a year ago and they have definetly helped alot.

And not every deck has to to be really expensive, try playing the good symbol. The only "essential" card to get that is really expensive might be darkness blade or mysterious stance, but thats only my opinion. Good has so many cards that are just "haterator" on the meta like destiny (common) and torn hero (common) and red lotus of the sun. If you duel symbol with chaos or something like fire, you can definetly fill in some holes in the deck. Keep on trying and keep you head up bro.

Shajir
Foxhound's Loudmouth.

sir_shajir said:

Lets look at your deck for a bit. I'm doing this more to make a point then to call you out or start a fight.

Cards that are over 5 dollars a card in your deck to get...

Makai High Noble
Lord of the Makai
Blood Runs True
Program Malfunction
Psycho-style
Juni's Spiral arrow
Ira Spinta
Feline Spike
Defender
Rejection.

Olcadon's Mentoring

Juni's goes for over 15 dollars per card at some places. Same goes for feline spike. Usually she is in the 20's if you can find her at all. Lord of the Makai is one that is between the 4-6 dollar range per card. I can't even even find hardly any psycho-styles or ira spinta. Olcadons is almost worth a ment. The core mechanics of your deck are not immitatable. The cost of buying boxes to get things in the deck are most likely cheaper in the long run if you split it with a person but you are still looking at around 200 dollars min and you won't get the promo because they come out of SC3. I play in OK. My shop does not have singles nor past sets. The closes store that probably does is 4 hours away. I'm pretty much stuck buying online. Online prices for the top cards are high. Even getting cards from Coolstuff is pretty expensive. Yes your cards may be commons and uncommons. Yes you may have got them in packs but when you are single hunting that relative price is gone. The older the set becomes and the more the card is used to win the higher the cost. So realistically its easy to get locked out. I dropped a 100 dollars and have only a few of the good mountain card and a few cards for my morgian deck. If you know a place cheaper then coolstuff feel free to let me know and I'll pass it on to my friends. But the truth of the matter is the same mechanics have been in the top 8 for a while now and yet no one has placed the common anti-meta decks. I don't think that no one has tried but more the issue is that the anti-meta is to weak to play. Lets take Still Dragon for example. It is an easy card to get and "if it lands" can let you destory an assest. But who is going to let that happen. Yes it stops Owlface but its easy to counter. Then take Ira Spinita that is going to hit regardless and its enhancement has direct effects that can be seen. Feline spike has been dominant for how long but I don't see a lot of people playing cards that stop multiples when you block. I see diversity being stated and put out there but I don't see it being modeled. For it to be modeled people have to risk loosing. You can have fun playing the game and not spend a lot. All you have to do is buy a starter and a few boosters. But to win in a competitive tournament you need to spend major money to win or place. Like I said before I actually went out on the web and saw the over all cost (card's, shipping and handling, tracking, and taxes if required) of getting the top decks and to model those decks you are on average spending 200+ dollars. If you feel that one can be a cheap gammer and make effective counter meta decks feel free to make 50 dollar deck that can beat the top meta. Then back it up with coolstuff. I'm still going through twoheaded dragon to learn cards so I don't know every card in the game. You all do. I have no problem being wrong I just want to see it modeled.

dutpotd said:

If you want to play, you don't need to spend a whole lot of money. To compete in B3 however, you do. It depends on what you consider "a lot of money" because that's subjective. Considering you travel everywhere I'm guessing a lot of money for you is way higher than what I consider a lot of money.

B4, however, seems to solve that problem right now. The few chase rares in that set, while powerful, tend to be far easier to find. We'll have a better picture once Set 14 hits (yes, 14, not 13 - 13 is my personal cut-off for trying out B4 as I've done every single year due to lack of any interesting tournaments I can attend post the Canadian Nationals, but we won't know the general direction that B4 will have until we're at least three sets in, and even then, that's barring any design philosophy being changed to the tune of last year), but for now, it seems very interesting.

I also like how my prediction of last year is coming true...

I understand that the game is not the cheapest game in the world, if you are looking for a cheap game that is very cost efficent, chess is a great game . I was talking to my buddy today and the base cost of getting into t1 magic. We figured it would be around 1500-2000 bucks to get most of the staples and with the assumption that you are allowed to proxie the power nine. And that is not including getting mana drains or mishra's workshop (both go for around drains go for 100- workshops go for 400 dollars each/ BRT doesn't look so bad now...). Now I don't know how much YuGiOh costs or how much it costs to get into any other ccg, but I don't remember ccg's being cheap unless you played magic in 2000 - the top decks were mostly uncommon and cost a total of 120 bucks-150 bucks (the good old days).

I feel some sympathy but are makai high noble and program malfunction really that hard to get? Psycho-style is a good card but it's not a 5 dollar card no matter what CSI says and realistically neither is makai high noble or program malfunction. I can't say we have a couple of them lying around in my playgroup. If CSI is the only way you are getting your cards, you are honestly probably just plain getting ripped off. I spent 100 bucks on a set of ira spinta's because it would lessen the strain on my playgroup and it's good to own your own cards and thats the only online cards I've ever bought. The way my playgroup works makes this game alot more cheaper for me then most other people. For instance, i'll used to buy 2-3 boxes a set over the course of 3-4 months if that. Some of my team mates spend a bit more, some a bit less depending on thier circumstances (ei work, school, other priorities). For set 12, i bought 5 boxes of SC4 and 1 box of shadowwar. I know I went overboard with SC4 boxes, but I got some store credit from my store and I have a comfy job at the moment. Overall we pool our cards together and for the most part we can work fairly well with that system as long as everyone is kept accountable.

For that nationals event, I borrowed 3 feline spikes, 2 defenders, 2 juni's spiral arrow, 1 psycho style. I lent 4-6 heel snipes, 4 knightbreakers, 4 midnight launchers, 4 revenants callings, 1 family heirloom. So overall, it was a pretty fair overall. Yes the game can be expensive, but there are ways to lessen the costs. Rejection came from a starter box, yes it's not the easiest to get but I saw 1-2 for sale at the other shop where I don't scout at. A majority of the games when I didn't use feline spike or defender at all, and they weren't really neccessary at all. Yes I did use them in top 8, but I other then that they weren't neccessary, they just gave me options to try something different if the mainboard wasn't going to work, and it was not the optimal sideboard plan at all.

I am graced with a shop that has singles and sells sets from previous sets. And I am sure that if you wanted to, you could ask your store owner to order a box of a previous set from his distributer (just not realm of midnight as that set is out of print). And if you have trust worthy freinds, people do try to consider that sharing or pool of cards.

sir_shajir said:

Not to discredit your post, but getting into a Legacy-type format for a game that has gone on for more than a decade will obviously cost more than the costs to get into a Standard format of a game that has yet to achieve the level of said game. And not to be pessimistic, that will likely never achieve it.

The only reason I list B3 as costly is because a lot of decks rely on cards that are in limited supply and not a lot of people will part from. Plus, the tournament season will inflate prices. It was far easier to get a hold of Spiral Arrow back in... say, December. Only the regionals were ahead, and without a constant stream of data coming in, it's harder to decipher which card will be supremely great and which one will not.

If you're looking for the cards everybody's looking for, of course they will be costly (especially more on CSI because people buy cards at crazy prices there). Honestly, at this point, if you're not looking to get into high level tournaments, I'd suggest putting down cash for Block 4 cards before any B3 cards. You'll have a head start on a lot of people come rotation, and certain cards, while easy to get in certain metas, aren't in yours.

I know that a lot of the 75 cents cards on CSI are particularly interesting from a certain point of view...

Homme Chapeau said:

Yeah, everyone has a different economic threshold... I can't argue that. But I wasn't trying to. I guess I am just sick of people getting caught up in 'must haves', or 'needed' cards. There really aren't that many that you absolutely need, if any. There are substitutes and different strategies, you have to play to what you own, and some of that is the fun part of deckbuilding. I really think you could give me $100 to buy starters/boosters/(a few singles) from different sets and I could come up with a deck that can compete = at least go with a 500 record.

Anyways, I 100% agree with your block 4 analysis, I am super happy with the direction the game is taking and I don't want to beat patience (my dead horse) any more than I have to.

All said, I can't remember what your prediction was. (sorry, I do read all of what you post, so I['m sure I read it, just escaped me atm).

What Shajir says about sharing or pooling is also really important. Obviously when he 'lends' his 4 Knight Breakers he is making a concious decision not to play a certain symbol or set of symbols for a given event. Planning and going through the process of attending an event with your group is 99% of the fun of UFS, the partying once you get there is just the icing on the cake.

And yeah, the list of cards you listed, only 1) Feline Spike, 2) Juni's Arrow, 3) Blood Runs True, 4) Spinta, and 5) Defender stick out as a truly pricey and not a single one is needed* for a deck. Needed for Shajir's deck, maybe, but you don't have to build Shajir's deck to be competitive, you really don't. There are an infinite number of viable options.

* Feline is his sideboard...

Spinta Tannerface swears he doesn't use in his almost identical strategy deck...

Defender has nothing to do with the kill condition, I own only 1, and it isn't infinitely useful early game, which is the Order deck's primary weakspot, becuase it also needs Makai and other cards to loop to be used...

Arrow is a super rare, I'll be honest I traded the one I pulled in like 3 boxes of Deadly Ground away, if I wanted to build this deck I would have to borrow/buy it, but that is life with super rares, getting 4 of them isn't going to magically happen when buying boosters, espically pre set 12 distribution...

BRT is BRT, I think we all know it isn't NEEDED to compete, it just makes life a lot easier - ability aside (which is amazing of course) it's cost and method of acquisition are truly one of UFS's glaring mistakes (personal opinion here), like Shajir I will admit to spending $100 for 4 last year as well.

- dut

yeah i guess that wasn't the best arguement.
but my main point was to be competive in any ccg you'll have to drop money, like standard magic right now is around 300 bucks for cards that probably won't go in another deck.

dutpotd said:

I didn't post it on the forums, but I did call it in my meta, and it was : "The game won't be really balanced until Block 4 rotation hits."

From what I've seen in Set 12 and a few Set 12 only games (yes, those happen - I'm not even kidding), they've nailed the return to attacking. We still have 75%+ of the sets to be released, but so far it's looking good. I'm waiting on the Tekken previews to truly confirm it.