In the clone wars there are witches. The Witches of the Mist. They cast spells like shooting electricity bolts at droids and raising an army of the undead. I read in the WEG Star Wars that magic is just another display of the force. But the Witches do things that arent force specific. Just curious how do you handle such concepts in SW EotE??

In my mind, it's just a different use of the dark side of the Force. What people call it is just a idiom.

Only a very few powers are light/dark side specific, and then its really just a case of "people aligned with X don't do Y" not that they cannot do Y.

Yoda is perfectly capable of using Force Lightning, as demonstrated by his ability to casually deflect it when attacked by Dooku. Its just not a power he'd use normally because its associated with "teh evilz!"

Given the nature of the force, it can be manifested in many ways. Various cultures will have figured out different ways to use it. Such as animating the bodies of the dead.

Remember the Sith and Jedi aren't the only groups force sensitives can belong to, or that everyone who uses the Dark side or Light side has the same powers available. Also do not assume that any particular group of force users is limited to one side or the other. "Only a Sith(Jedi) deals in Absolutes". Others may not be as limited. You could easily have an order which uses both sides of the force equally, like the ancient Jedi order was originally.

I generally file the Dathomiri witches as "a Force by any other name."

Should they or anything like them come up in my game, the stat block for powers not covered by the books will just read "plot."

Yes, Dathomir witches are just other types of Force users, just like the Jedi, the Sith, etc... They're all tapping into the same thing, just different aspects of it.

Living Force, Cosmic Force, Unnified Force... there too new canon concepts that needed to be clarified yet.

Maybe that special use of the Dark Side (or not) get its power from another source.

Perhaps Jedi and Sith get their powers from Living Force and Dathomir "Magik" gets its power from Cosmic Force, so, until some clarification, I considered to separate their Force Rating.

- Jedi/Sith power that are used from Living Force are Force Rating.

- Dathomirian Magik that comes from Cosmic Force are Spiritual Rating (nice name )

Talzin isn't a natural Force user and needs to drain power from living beings... too much things to explain/clarify

According to Dave Filnoi,the Supervising Director for the Clone Wars and Rebels, has stated that the powers that the Nightsisters and Mother Talzin use in The Clone Wars Animated series has no connection to The Force. It is entirely a separate entity. This came from George Lucas' direction at the time these episodes were made. So according to the Star Wars Universe, the Nighsisters Magic is not a manifestation of The Force. In FFG games terms, I would still the force powers that have been printed.

It seems that Asajj Ventress is better at using the force than the Nightsisters Magic.

In the last season of TCW, Mother Talzin was trying to get a force artifact to try to unite the two types of powers to become all powerful, but she is stopped by Jar Jar, Mace Windu, and Count Doku.

The old WEG books did talk about magic as being a use of The Force. Maybe some of it was, just not the Nightsister's Dark Magic. I will see if I can find the old episode of the Rebel Force Radio/Forcecast podcast episode were Dave was taking about this.

According to Dave Filnoi,the Supervising Director for the Clone Wars and Rebels, has stated that the powers that the Nightsisters and Mother Talzin use in The Clone Wars Animated series has no connection to The Force. It is entirely a separate entity. This came from George Lucas' direction at the time these episodes were made. So according to the Star Wars Universe, the Nighsisters Magic is not a manifestation of The Force. In FFG games terms, I would still the force powers that have been printed.

Well I'm declaring outright death of the author on that one. It's nice Filoni and Lucas think that, but until it's made explicit in-universe, that's just their interpretation. I don't really feel like "magic" has a place in Star Wars.

Shows always throw wrenches into things. It's always been known that they are just force-sensitive and it's varies on whether the traditions passed down are the source of their power, the traditions enhance them, or the traditions are just that.

Every RPG I've played just treats them as darksiders and any other power is either fluff or a unique homebrew power. Saga Edition added some talents to make them truly different, but other than charming beasts and flying there was nothing too "witch-like."

It doesn't have to follow source and GMs will certainly vary on how they believe it should go, but I recommend that they are just treated as one of the many force traditions. Different beliefs, different appearance, but same source of power.

Yoda is perfectly capable of using Force Lightning, as demonstrated by his ability to casually deflect it when attacked by Dooku. Its just not a power he'd use normally because its associated with "teh evilz!"

Given the nature of the force, it can be manifested in many ways. Various cultures will have figured out different ways to use it. Such as animating the bodies of the dead.

Your post reminded me of something that came up back when I frequented the Wizards forums. What makes dark side powers dark.

Redirecting force that's already twisted is different than actually doing the act. Force Lightning is dark side not from association but because in order to perform it you need to take the energy of the force and twist it into something it's not by infusing it with anger, hatred, and just raw emotion.

Some have managed to use it without emotion and instead used it while calm and in control like Jacen Solo and...some Kel-Dor whose name I forgot. It was called Emerald Lightning and instead of inflicting pain and death it sapped the strength and willpower from the target.

Ok, you can think what you want, but when the people that make this stuff says this is what it is, well, there you go. It is not that Filoni and Lucas "think" that, they "said" that. And it has been made explicit in the Star Wars universe. Mother Tazlin says she is not a Force User. That her magic is something different, that is why she was trying to get that artifact to bring the two together.

How you "feel" about it is great. You don't have to like it or change the way you want to run it in your game, but as far as the Star Wars Universe is concered, there is Non-Force Magic in the Star Wars Galaxy.

The original post was kind of a two part question.

Is this Dark Magic The Force?

No, it is not, and I gave my source for that information.

How do you handle it in your game?

I said I would operate it like The Force for RPG purposes, but I will never bring in the Nightsisters into my game.

How people want to handle it in their game is up to them, but as far as Star Wars Canon goes, there is no disputing that. Just like Jango Fett not being a Mandalorian.

I like the concept of the Night Sisters. Females are the Dominate sex on that planet.. Darth Maul is from that planet.. I am thinking of using them in a game. I'm just gonna use my best guess about Mothers Powers..

Posts are starting to get a little "heated" for a discussion on an mythological concept in a made-up story...

The Star Wars universe is one that constantly changes and is supposed to be fun and entertaining. Films, books, comics, games, and TV have countless contradictions that are all accepted canon by Lucas. Honestly, as far as most fluff is concerned, there shouldn't really be an argument about who is more "right." As far as EU has always been concerned, the Witches of Dathomir are force-users. Now, there is EU stating that there is something more behind the power. Eventually there may be EU stating something completely different. We just need to accept that.

Just a friendly reminder form a fellow user that there's no such thing as "explicitly this" in Star Wars canon and to keep it civil. It's all GM control in a table-top and just because someone disagrees doesn't mean that someone has to be wrong.

The Nightsisters were a sect of the Witches of Dathomir who embraced the usage of dark arts within their Force -driven Magicks . The Nightsisters were originally members of other witch clans who began to utilize the dark side in defiance of the light-sided orthodoxy found in the Book of Law —the governing holy text of the Dathomiri . These witches adopted a shamanistic culture that rejected the notion of "good" and "evil", and instead chose to call upon the twin energies of the Winged Goddess and the Fanged God in order to utilize their Magicks and communicate with the spirit realm . They focused extensively on the art of casting Force illusions through "illusion spells." Witches found guilty of practicing these heretical techniques were banished into Dathomir's wilderness and left for dead. However, in the final decades of the Galactic Republic 's reign, the exiled witch Gethzerion used her superior powers to unite the wandering outcasts into a new clan—the Nightsisters.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side...

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything.

There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny.

Unfortunately for all, Disney, the new gawds of all things Star Wars (whether we like it or not) has declared the Six Episodes, TCW and Rebels, and all things they produce from now on, Canon. Everything else EU (and wookiepedia) are not and can be changed at the discretion of Lucas Arts (owned by Disney for those not in the know, LA is who made the announcement) therefore if TCW says it is not the Force then it is not the Force. Now the beauty of RPGs is you can do whatever you please, but if you want to argue canon, this is it. That is until J.J. does another time warp thing and changes everything in Episode VII like he did for that other Sci Fi favorite of which we will not speak. LOL

Unfortunately for all, Disney, the new gawds of all things Star Wars (whether we like it or not) has declared the Six Episodes, TCW and Rebels, and all things they produce from now on, Canon. Everything else EU (and wookiepedia) are not and can be changed at the discretion of Lucas Arts (owned by Disney for those not in the know, LA is who made the announcement) therefore if TCW says it is not the Force then it is not the Force. Now the beauty of RPGs is you can do whatever you please, but if you want to argue canon, this is it. That is until J.J. does another time warp thing and changes everything in Episode VII like he did for that other Sci Fi favorite of which we will not speak. LOL

A) that isn't anything new. Movies trumped all even under Lucas.

B) JJ didn't change the canon of Star Trek. He created a new, parallel one, just like the mirror universes that were in the shows ("Mirror, Mirror" from ST: TOS, 4 eps from ST: DS9 and 2 from ST:E).

I will see if I can find the old episode of the Rebel Force Radio/Forcecast podcast episode were Dave was taking about this.

Found it! Here

Skip to the 19:00 minute mark.

To summarize: According to Filoni, George said it was something else but left it undefined. Dave himself feels that it is different from the Force but still related to it.

Until they define it further, I'm with the others in thinking its just a different manifestation of the Force. In that same episode where Talzin claims to not be a natural Force User, Master Windu states that Magick is just an illusion, and he seems like he's been around the block a few times, so I'll defer to his wisdom for now.

According to Dave Filnoi,the Supervising Director for the Clone Wars and Rebels, has stated that the powers that the Nightsisters and Mother Talzin use in The Clone Wars Animated series has no connection to The Force. It is entirely a separate entity. This came from George Lucas' direction at the time these episodes were made. So according to the Star Wars Universe, the Nighsisters Magic is not a manifestation of The Force. In FFG games terms, I would still the force powers that have been printed.

Well I'm declaring outright death of the author on that one. It's nice Filoni and Lucas think that, but until it's made explicit in-universe, that's just their interpretation . I don't really feel like "magic" has a place in Star Wars.

Opa! their interpretation? Is not Lucas the creator of SW?

We, the fans have taken it from him!

Nevertheless I agree, in my SW universe magic has no place.

Sounds like Filoni is purposely keeping it vague, both in the universe and out of universe. This is great for us as GMs, we can have it be whatever we want it to be.

Opa! their interpretation? Is not Lucas the creator of SW?

We, the fans have taken it from him!

Nevertheless I agree, in my SW universe magic has no place.

Exactly the point of "death of the author." It means that, once a work is published, it should be treated as if the author died without ever explaining it. In that regard, how the creator's opinion on how his or her work should be interpreted is exactly that: his or her opinion. The audience's takeaway is just as valid.

Really, any RPGs based on an existing license revolve around death of the author. Of course, as a guy with a comparative literature degree, I'm all about this kind of stuff, so I'm not exactly unbiased.

To summarize: According to Filoni, George said it was something else but left it undefined. Dave himself feels that it is different from the Force but still related to it.

Until they define it further, I'm with the others in thinking its just a different manifestation of the Force. In that same episode where Talzin claims to not be a natural Force User, Master Windu states that Magick is just an illusion, and he seems like he's been around the block a few times, so I'll defer to his wisdom for now.

I'd consider both Talzin and Windu to be unreliable, albeit Talzin moreso. She has more to gain from shrouding her use of the Force in mysticism than Windu does. Not to say that there's nothing mystic about the Force, but the witches take it to an extreme.

Exactly the point of "death of the author." It means that, once a work is published, it should be treated as if the author died without ever explaining it. In that regard, how the creator's opinion on how his or her work should be interpreted is exactly that: his or her opinion. The audience's takeaway is just as valid.

Just as a counter point: this is one of those things I feel was invented to give consumers the conceit of importance...as if the act of consumption is a creative act. The audience's opinion might be "interesting", but not just as valid. I certainly respect those artists who purposely do not explain their works and leave it to interpretation...makes for interesting discussions. But if the creator explains what they intended, then the audience's point of view is rather moot.

In any case, we're talking about an entire universe here, and not a completed work, but a work in progress . This work in progress includes mechanical aspects of that universe that have yet to be clearly defined. So to pick a specific point of view about a mechanical aspect in a complex universe that is still under development seems rather arbitrary.

Clarification: according to Legends , their magic is Force-related.

However, according to Canon , they are separate.

Basically, Dathomir has this "ichor" that allows for fantastical "magick." It's mystical, and we don't have all the answers for it, but it is pretty clearly separate from every use of the Force we have ever seen in a Canon source.

In the great wide galaxy, is it not possible that there's a world with some sort of biotic properties that allows for inexplicable things to happen? Reanimation of the dead, prolonged invisibility, causing objects to appear out of thin air.

Going forward with an open mind, accepting the creativity of others as potentially valid instead of shutting it out because it conflicts with one's preconceptions, is a wiser path that leads to further creativity in the future.

Clarification: according to Legends , their magic is Force-related.

However, according to Canon , they are separate.

Basically, Dathomir has this "ichor" that allows for fantastical "magick." It's mystical, and we don't have all the answers for it, but it is pretty clearly separate from every use of the Force we have ever seen in a Canon source.

In the great wide galaxy, is it not possible that there's a world with some sort of biotic properties that allows for inexplicable things to happen? Reanimation of the dead, prolonged invisibility, causing objects to appear out of thin air.

Going forward with an open mind, accepting the creativity of others as potentially valid instead of shutting it out because it conflicts with one's preconceptions, is a wiser path that leads to further creativity in the future.

Biotic means life... life means the Force... " Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship." -- Yoda, Empire Strikes Back

It doesn't have to have another explanation, just might be something that Jedi never learned to harness when it came to their training in the Force.

Just as a counter point: this is one of those things I feel was invented to give consumers the conceit of importance...as if the act of consumption is a creative act. The audience's opinion might be "interesting", but not just as valid. I certainly respect those artists who purposely do not explain their works and leave it to interpretation...makes for interesting discussions. But if the creator explains what they intended, then the audience's point of view is rather moot.

Yes, I'd ordinarily agree, but we're not just talking about a movie here, we have a role-playing game based on a movie. We can't affect canon as individuals, but we can interpret the material how we wish. Or throw it out entirely.

You can enjoy D&D in the Forgotten Realms without using Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue GMPCs like Elminster, or all the silly soap opera plots that have plagued that setting. You could play One Ring with your own Fellowship if you want.

With an RPG, consumption IS a creative act.

So if someone hates the concept of, say, 'midichlorians', it's easy to toss it out without affecting any of the rules as written.

At my table, I don't need everything explained. Everyone's mileage may vary. Scientific types talk of 'biotics'. Some believe Midichlorian Theory and are obsessed with bloodlines and genetics.

Our ex-Jedi and the Emergents (who were taught by ex-Jedi) talk in terms of 'The Force' and classic SW treatment of it.

Our Mystic and Seeker speak in terms of 'the spirits' or 'magick', rather than a 'Force'.

Our Exile and Force-Sensitive Warrior couldn't care less where their cool powers come from. Because 'a good blaster at your side' is no match for being able to hurl around ATATs with your mind.

Yes, I'd ordinarily agree, but we're not just talking about a movie here, we have a role-playing game based on a movie. We can't affect canon as individuals, but we can interpret the material how wish. Or throw it out entirely.

Absolutely, no disagreement. Of course everyone is free to do what they want in their own game. I was only responding to the general idea of ignoring the author when deciding what is "true" about a creation.

For myself I'd probably just handle magic as Force-based, mostly because I'd rather not have some competing metaphysics muddying the waters, and I don't really like the idea of having some "sourceless power" in the universe...I'll leave that to Harry Potter and D&D.