It seems that some people, regardless of their gender, or even the context of the situation, will get their feelings hurt no matter what.

True, some people are looking for an excuse to be offended because... well reasons I guess, but none that I get.

But at the same time, if using the term woman rather that female makes life easier for some people, it's such a small thing it's most likely worth making the change. I'm no means overly PC, but do believe that we all can and should be willing to put a little effort into making everyone feel respected, assuming of course they're worth respect.

Love you too, Vanor.

Floof is new here and I didn't want him distracted by your tone which can be a bit off putting to people who haven't seen many of your posts. Myself I find your tone refreshing from time to time, but I know more than a few people have jumped to the conclusion you're nothing but a troll when that's not really true.

It seems that some people, regardless of their gender, or even the context of the situation, will get their feelings hurt no matter what. Some, not all. Is it really such a pressing social concern that we have to now watch whether we say 'female' instead of 'woman,' for fear of stepping on someone's toes? Perhaps you didn't catch my edit to post #82. Seriously, where does the semantic distortion end?

This is actually a very good point and a question I can't answer. Like most things, use of language and social responses to that language constantly evolves. I'm fairly certain that at some point in time, somebody wondered aloud to themselves whether it was a pressing social concern that they now had to watch whether they said "police officer" instead of "policeman" for fear of stepping on someone's toes. Or, if you take that stance far enough, "african american" instead of "n-word".

Semantics are difficult. There are no answers, the playing field constantly changes and it's often open to interpretation. But it doesn't mean it's not worth discussing.

Male and Female is what we are, don't join the military.

I think pretty soon, the mods are gonna shut this one down as well.. so get your jabs in..

Are you people honestly going to sit there and tell me it's inappropriate to use the term female? Really?

No. I'm simply saying that one is more appropriate than the other in this context. I don't believe that is being oversensitive. Mature would be to either agree, or disagree, but accept nonetheless that some people (in particular women) feel this way. Rather than attempt to deny it or point out flaws in the concept.

Oh, I can accept that people feel all kinds of different ways.

As an adjective I don't think there's any grounds for objection, but as a noun I can completely understand the dislike for it seeping into normal discourse. You'd expect to see it on a character sheet for an RPG like "Orc Female" or "Trandoshan Male," or in a character creator for a game. That would normally say "Male Trandoshan" but it's the other way around because it reads and looks cooler. Nevertheless, it has a species name in front of it. I'm willing to bet that's how those two found their way into normal conversation.

When you strip either of the word in front of them it suddenly sounds like a term you'd apply to an animal, an insect or a plug socket. It sounds like something David Attenborough might say when talking about zebras. It sounds clinical, disconnected from the speaker and distant.

In all fairness, part of the reason people in this thread are saying "female" so much is because we're talking gender issues. If I were more active in this discussion I'd be using that word a lot, but in my day to day life I never use it. There's way too much emphasis being placed on whether or not people should be offended by the word female and to be totally honest I think it's hilarious. Like, WW says "female" too much and now he's the reason girls don't play X-Wing? No.

I would take people being nice but misusing words over a**holes who stay within the limits of political correctness every time.

I believe it would be better for a new generation to not even consider gender, race, etc. , than for them to be taught that you should be nice to the "other" people.

It's not pretending that the problem doesn't exist, it's detaching oneself from the problem in order to be nice no matter who is staying in front of you.

See, this guy gets it. Sitting here wringing our hands and worrying if we've accidentally objectified women through our choice of words is completely pointless. If we're concerned about offending women (or any other group of people, really) then we probably aren't the problem anyway. And suggesting that they would be offended over someone saying "female" instead of "woman" is kind of worse, since it suggests that something that's actually really minor would bother them so much. I worked in a truck stop for years. Trust me, sexism isn't some guy that keeps saying "female".

Might want to start with regarding them as women/girls...

It was pointed out in that thread that the OP used the term Female more than anyone else posting in the thread.

I did *not* understand what Jetfire was referring to. Maybe because pronouns are something else

pretty sure "females" is being used as a slang replacement for Women or Girls. Which is my point exactly. Men get to be represented by a pronoun and women get to be relegated to being represented instead by a set of organs. The last line down there, would you say the first or the 2nd form of that sentence?

Discrimination Against Females in X-wing | Mostly Men play X-wing/ Mostly Males play X-wing.

In all fairness, part of the reason people in this thread are saying "female" so much is because we're talking gender issues. If I were more active in this discussion I'd be using that word a lot, but in my day to day life I never use it. There's way too much emphasis being placed on whether or not people should be offended by the word female and to be totally honest I think it's hilarious. Like, WW says "female" too much and now he's the reason girls don't play X-Wing? No.

I would take people being nice but misusing words over a**holes who stay within the limits of political correctness every time.

I believe it would be better for a new generation to not even consider gender, race, etc. , than for them to be taught that you should be nice to the "other" people.

It's not pretending that the problem doesn't exist, it's detaching oneself from the problem in order to be nice no matter who is staying in front of you.

See, this guy gets it. Sitting here wringing our hands and worrying if we've accidentally objectified women through our choice of words is completely pointless. If we're concerned about offending women (or any other group of people, really) then we probably aren't the problem anyway. And suggesting that they would be offended over someone saying "female" instead of "woman" is kind of worse, since it suggests that something that's actually really minor would bother them so much. I worked in a truck stop for years. Trust me, sexism isn't some guy that keeps saying "female".

How we treat people and how we talk about them matter. If you use terms to refer to people that do not convey the idea that they are even people... do not be surprised when they are also not treated as people which is the ultimate issue.

So- a bunch of guys think sexism doesn't exist on this forum?

K.

No, it isn't. For two reasons. The first reason is that you're assuming we talk like this in person. I certainly don't; I sound like a robot when I'm online. In person I swear frequently, change subjects midsentence, and usually just point at who or whatever I'm talking about. Like this:

"(points at Wedge) shoots...hm...(points at Jendon). Yeah. I'll do that."

We're up to our jaws in a discussion of gender, of course we're using different terminology here. Some people just get all formal and scientific when they argue, it doesn't automatically mean they talk like this all the time.

The second is because you're looking at this from the perspective of someone that's been debating/arguing about it for a while now. We (well not me) have been dissecting points and examining things closely and all those fun things, which means that we aren't thinking like some guy/woman on the street who just overheard us. Most people, if they heard you say "females don't generally play miniatures games" wouldn't think that you're referring to them as a set of organs. They'd think you were weird for using such a clinical sounding term in casual conversation, but unless it was a constant thing or the actual message itself was sexist they aren't generally going to take offence. Which of these is more insulting to women?

"Females generally don't play wargames, although we aren't sure if this is a societal thing or just a general trend."

"Women don't play wargames because the math and violence are off-putting to women."

Granted, someone who almost always says "females" is going to come across a bit creepy but like I said. This is an argument on the internet. I'm betting none of us talk like this offline.

So- a bunch of guys think sexism doesn't exist on this forum?

K.

Care to elaborate on this a little? I was under the impression that the current discussion suggests the exact opposite, or have I missed something?

So- a bunch of guys think sexism doesn't exist on this forum?

K.

And what is a post like that meant to achieve? How is being as sexist as possible in the other direction meant to help anything?

For the purposes of this post I'm going to assume you're not a troll and you're not actively trying to provoke a flame war. I'm instead going to guess that you're incredibly passionate about gender equality issues and that passion overspills into aggression.

My question is, what does that aggression, especially on a plastic spaceship forum, achieve?

If you're being aggressive with trolls you're just feeding them.

If you're being aggressive with misogynists you'll trigger a fight or flight response and it being the internet they'll pick fight. It's human to want to disagree with someone who takes a hostile tone with you, so they'll mentally entrench their views and then they'll either respond with aggression back, resulting in a flame war that achieves nothing, or make you look like an idiot to any third party by being slightly less aggressive. The winner of a flame war is the one who makes the other person look like a raging child to any third party reading it.

If you're being aggressive with anyone else you'll either turn them against your cause or more likely turn them against you personally. The only people who'll agree with you are the ones which agree with you already.

This forum is mostly fairly bright people who'll be won over by reasoning and civil discussion, flaming them won't achieve anything. Does that make sense?

So- a bunch of guys think sexism doesn't exist on this forum?

K.

And what is a post like that meant to achieve? How is being as sexist as possible in the other direction meant to help anything?

For the purposes of this post I'm going to assume you're not a troll and you're not actively trying to provoke a flame war. I'm instead going to guess that you're incredibly passionate about gender equality issues and that passion overspills into aggression.

My question is, what does that aggression, especially on a plastic spaceship forum, achieve?

If you're being aggressive with trolls you're just feeding them.

If you're being aggressive with misogynists you'll trigger a fight or flight response and it being the internet they'll pick fight. It's human to want to disagree with someone who takes a hostile tone with you, so they'll mentally entrench their views and then they'll either respond with aggression back, resulting in a flame war that achieves nothing, or make you look like an idiot to any third party by being slightly less aggressive. The winner of a flame war is the one who makes the other person look like a raging child to any third party reading it.

If you're being aggressive with anyone else you'll either turn them against your cause or more likely turn them against you personally. The only people who'll agree with you are the ones which agree with you already.

This forum is mostly fairly bright people who'll be won over by reasoning and civil discussion, flaming them won't achieve anything. Does that make sense?

Such wisdom.

That's not sarcasm, I'm genuinely pleased to see someone that understands how flame wars go as well as TIE Pilot does. Also, apparently this guy has precognition or something because this is how flame wars always play out, unless the mods shut things down before events can get that far.

Here we go again.

You are stacking a lot on my message. I'm not being aggressive but your replies are.

I'm not going to have some (insert fake internet word) fight on this. Some of the guys in this thread have been thoughtful and on point. Some have not.

I have been a woman on this forum for long enough to know that absolutely nothing will convince some people that sexism, discrimination, homophobia, and outright misogyny live here.

It lives everywhere. Every day. The reason you disagree is because you don't get it.

That's all. There is no big secret or conspiracy. You don't see it because you don't get it. Those who grasp the reality see it and try to behave accordingly.

Go right ahead and lay in on me about being a troll or a witch, or a feminazi, etc. Nonsense. Nothing you say matters if you can't even see the issue that brings this up time and time again.

Kudos to those who try to discuss this like a person, but being sterile in discourse and missing the context that we can reality so you can debate over calling us cattle vs people is so very far from helpful.

I have seen both genders at fault on the issue of sexism (This is my personal experience I am NOT calling anyone out on this forum). I have seen feminists that preach they want equality and then pull the "But I'm a woman" card. I have seen men dehumanize and belittle women because of their gender. BOTH of these are wrong. I have been accused of being a misogynist by my friends (it is their attempt to get my goat as it were) but I proclaim that I am an equal opportunity hater (I am joking somewhat when I say this). If a woman acts up and does something stupid or wrong I will call her out on it. If a man does the same thing I will call him on it as it is the only way to be fair. I grow weary of this whole thing at the end of the day but couldn't resist throwing in my two cents as I have been quiet so far other than a joke that I view everyone as a robot. Respect your fellow humans, this is your president, John Henry Eden signing off.

Go right ahead and lay in on me about being a troll or a witch, or a feminazi

What would that achieve? Throwing insults at you isn't going to persuade you that the tone of your posts is working against you any more than calling me clueless is going to persuade me that it is.

Whether or not you're intending to be aggressive doesn't matter. Bear in mind we can't hear your tone, all we see is text. What matters is that you come across that way. You also frequently come across as sexist in the other direction, far more explicitly and directly than those you accuse, and that heavily undermines your standpoint: it makes it sound like "do as I say, not as I do".

So- a bunch of guys think sexism doesn't exist on this forum?

K.

In the context of your other posts, this reads with a lot of emphasis on the word "guys". Substitute "guys" for "girls" and tell me that doesn't come across as sexist.

Practice what you preach and avoid coming across as aggressive and people won't assume you're trying to pick a fight, assume you're trying to troll or disagree with you simply because you got their hackles up. You'll be much more successful at persuading people on this forum and anyone who gets aggressive with you will end up looking like an idiot.

That goes for everyone else, too. Angry posts only work in very specific circumstances, and pretty much none of them apply to the X-wing forum.

The reason you disagree

With what?

That discrimination against minorities is still rife in western culture? I don't think anyone here questions the truth of that.

That a shameful amount of misogyny exists in gaming culture? I think a certain "movement" that so far has remained unnamed and that was best described by Chris Kluwe is ample proof of just how bad the situation is.

The only thing I disagree with is the notion that FFG is sexist because most of the names on the pilot cards are male characters. If that were true then by the same logic FFG is also racist.

Its funny. In my time here, I've seen more aggressive posts directed at bubblepopmei than anyone else by a factor of about 5x. I am also going to state right here that I do not think her posts are at all as aggressive as people imply them to be. However, the ones I've seen directed at her are extremely aggressive.

What she says is right. Its silly: a bunch of men who don't really ever experience the problem, trying to tell others that the problem doesn't exist.

(Oh, yeah. I'm kind of on the fence about FFG being racist. =P But, I need more information. Star Wars tends to be pretty racist anyway.)

Its funny. In my time here, I've seen more aggressive posts directed at bubblepopmei than anyone else by a factor of about 5x. I am also going to state right here that I do not think her posts are at all as aggressive as people imply them to be. However, the ones I've seen directed at her are extremely aggressive.

The vast majority of bubble's posts aren't aggressive in the slightest. Whenever gender equality comes up though it's a different story.

Star Wars tends to be pretty racist anyway.

Really? Because based on the era it was filmed, it was pretty inclusive of both race and gender. Much more so than was typical of the time.

Was going to say something... But in retrospect there was no good way of saying what I was thinking without derailing the thread.

It's long been derailed. Given that it began as a discussion of whether the last thread was a Ribann troll thread or not, it didn't exactly have a good start from the get go.

Personally, I think it would be wiser to leave this particular thread to die and civilly restart the discussion in a new thread with a much more defined and less ambigious premise than "Is X-wing Sexist?"

^^^^^^^^^ this...

Alright! I was dismayed when the what-proved-to-be-a Ribann thread was deleted, though I didn't read it in the later phases.

Here's the way I see it: We need these threads to sort out this gender question in our community. Frankly, I don't want bubblepopmei to censor herself. With a few exceptions that came out of the woodwork during my X-Wing Wives thread from this summer, she's the lone voice, and we need to lea.

I think the gender disparity in this hobby is a problem.

Yes, it may very well be that there is something about the differences between innate differences between men and women that makes X-Wing something that men would be more into than women would be. I'm gung-ho about this game, my wife is not. However, whatever those differences are, surely those differences can't be so stark as to create the whopping imbalance that we have. I just don't buy it.

So, when Bubbles is sarcastic, I want to take that very seriously. Absolutely, we're a bunch of guys talking about a women's problem. Obviously we're not going to 'get it'; certainly not at a visceral level.

That said, I do trust that the people (including my friend WonderWAAAGH) who participate in these discussions want X-Wing to be inclusive of everyone who wants to be included. I do think there's legitimate discussion to be had about what sort of behavior is necessary to make that happen. That's a difficult discussion to have because women are not a uniform species. Some can have the sharpest of elbows, and some won't feel welcome until invited. Some will be extremely sensitive and others will be ready for the rough-and-tumble of sexist banter.

So anything we can learn will be valuable. What are - generally speaking - the reasons women don't feel interested in our game or wanted by our community? Are there things that we can change that are beyond the obvious of being civilized human beings at the FLGS?

I think that post, or at least the essence of it, would be best off as a new thread.

censor

Who said anything about censorship? The words beginning with C I'm advocating here are civility and courtesy. On forums such as these it's civil and respectful discussion from all participants that persuades people and makes differences.

sarcastic

Really doesn't come through text. I'll be the first to admit I could be completely misreading bubble's posts but that's yet another example of why people need to be so careful when phrasing things in a text-only medium. Think of the worst way your post could be taken without someone actively looking for something to get angry at and then assume it'll be taken in that way.

I'm fairly certain that at some point in time, somebody wondered aloud to themselves whether it was a pressing social concern that they now had to watch whether they said "police officer" instead of "policeman" for fear of stepping on someone's toes. Or, if you take that stance far enough, "african american" instead of "n-word".

I suppose that's why I take exception to this particular line of thought; one of those words might be insensitive, and the other is clearly a term of abuse. Not all police officers are men, so regardless of any implicit sensitivity issues, it's simply not accurate. I don't think I have to elaborate on what's wrong with the "n-word." Applied to our particular conversation, women are females. I find nothing extraordinarily insensitive about that, and I certainly don't consider it to be a term of abuse.

Mikael is right, I have absolutely no problem with being more inclusive. There is, however, a world of difference between "that word hurts my feelings, please don't use it" and "you're being objectively insensitive/sexist/dehumanizing/misogynistic for using that word, and it's going to drive women away from the game." The former is perfectly respectable; the latter is absurd beyond reason.