Okay, I got to play this weekend and got trounced in all three games (which makes me sad). I was playing a Vampire Counts list, Manfred and Isabel, a varghest, a banshee, zombie dragon, a black knight, couple of skeleton warriors, and one tomb guard. Command Cards were Raise Dead, Dark Majesty, Gaze of Nagash, and Beguile. Based on the performance of the list, I think Intimidate would be a better replacement for Gaze.

Game 1 - Double Bloodthirsters

This was against a list similar to one I saw on BGG, basically lots of Daemonettes and two bloodthirsters. Now, granted, I almost eliminated one of them except for a bad roll from my Zombie Dragon, but I just don't see how I could have dealt with the second one.

Game 2 - Shooty Elves of Doom

Lots of militia archers, Teclis, Sun Dragon, and Alarielle. This one may have just been a genuinely unlucky match-up for me. He got 2nd player, put a watchtower right in his deployment zone, so I couldn't just block off the archers. The dice failed me at several critical times, and I just couldn't make it close enough before I got picked to pieces. I know VC are lacking in ranged right now, so this one I might have just shrugged off.

Game 3 - Stinkin' trolls

I think this was a SniperTroll list, double trolls with Azhag and lots of boys. Again, I just didn't have the umph to really pull them all down. Once again, the dice betrayed me and my banshee was totally useless, but still.

Now, I don't want to sound all sour grapes, my opponents are great guys and I had an enjoyable time gaming. That being said, it does strike me that monstrous creatures like trolls, dragons, and bloodthirsters really ought to be unique. Or maybe the VC just aren't developed enough yet to deal effectively with them? Any thoughts?

This is funny, it sounds like you were playing in the same tournament as Rexgator and Jonathan. You played the first game against Rex who was using exactly the double Thirster and Daemonettes list from BGG. Jonathan was using some variation of his great double Dragon army and I am sure the third player was playing the Sniper Troll's list.

The Vampire Counts are fun but I don't think we have come up with a very powerful archetype yet and they may still need some help before we even get there. Additionally, you played some excellent players with very powerful armies. You shouldn't feel sad, you were in a tough spot.

LOL I'm pretty sure I did play in that exact tournament. Yes, they are both really good players (and fun opponents too!). I'm determined to make the Vampire Counts work; they really are my favorite of the factions so far and match my playstyle. I know I did make some mistakes too, I'm afraid I'm still a teeny bit too aggressive when I should make them come to me. Intimidate would have really helped me out, and I'm not impressed with the Varghest, so I may try running a second banshee next time and see how that goes.

I am big fan of running banshees, but I think you have to have more than one at a time to make them work. If you swoop in screaming with them they can usually do some damage in a pack--one might miss, but three won't! I play extremely aggressively with them, but hang back with my other units unless there is a specific opportunity to exploit. If the banshees go down, I reanimate them for another charge. This has worked well for me in the past, though it does require some careful positioning of casters.

I love those banshees, but always in groups!

David,

I don't know that there was all that much you could have done differently in your game against the Elves. Even the Banshee has a tough time when a High Elf Mage is sitting on top of a huge cluster of Elf troops, all at short range.

As for the Thirster, the answer may be to bog it down with cheap, expendible troops? Unfortunately, Blood for the Blood God is going to allow the Thirster to shrug those Skeletons off and keep on killing. Intimidate definitely helps, and will embarass those frothing thirsters. I like it a lot more than Dark Majesty, for example.

Yeah, that was a rough one, I still think I could have done better if I'd been able to keep Mannfred alive, I did lose a critical command card play that I needed to win on turn 2 that could have let me do some nasty things.

As for Thirster, even though I like playing aggressively, I think I really should have made him come to me and done a better job of picking and choosing engagements, I just felt too pressured by the existence of two of them. Realistically, pinning one down with a black knight and then pinning the black knight to prevent intimidate would do the trick, but I'd have to really protect them while he chewed up the bloodthirster(s)...

So, first off, go here and read Velensk's analysis of the Vampires' weaknesses and my response. I dare say we manage to outline both the difficulties of playing Vampire Counts in their currents state, and their minor strengths.

After you've read it, please take a moment to give us a quick recap of how your army performed, and what you think of Gaze, Beguile and Raise- as a fellow VC player I am very curious of your impressions.

If you didn't read the stuff I linked at the top of this post, here's the tl;dr- vampire units suck > you need to reanimate them consistently to get your money's worth > winning hinges on reanimating. As you've clearly already figured out why you had the issues you did (Intimidate is necessary, VC have a hard time vs elite/tough units), my advice below pertains strictly to optimizing your list to deal with said issues.

1. Numbers

You should always be able to reanimate enough units per round to make an impact. A single unit is not enough, unless it's a Zombie Dragon, and even then the Dragon's fear and poison can be benefited from more fully with extra attackers.

2. Flexibility

Ideally you should be able to bring back any one unit in your army (apart from the skeletons). Mannfred is almost good enough for the task, but if you have a Dragon you should take Invocation to add it to your options. Invocation massively improves your reanimation output, and grants Isabella an unbelievable threat range.

3. Raise Dead is not reanimating

It's basically a short range spell. It's not good for reanimating Banshees, Wolves or Black Knights because they lose out on their activation damage, so what you're left with is either damage 3 to multiple disks with Vargheists, or damage 4-5 to a single disk with GG. RD being slow, you essentially invite your opponent to pin you with something you can't kill with either of those disks (assuming you have the right one currently in your casualty pile). They could also pin you with a weak expendable unit to keep you from moving and dropping your Raised Dead on a better target. Either way, you're letting your opponent dictate the exchange. The importance of not letting your casters to ever get pinned has been stressed enough.

Raise Dead deprives you of one of the best things about reanimating- the ability to move your freshly exhumed unit into a good blocking position, or to pin a cluster of good targets with it.

4. Zombie Dragons kill

Against the units you mention, and many others such as Steam Tanks or Bloodcrushers, your only true tool is the Zombie Dragon. Even when it doesn't inflict damage with the breath attack, the poison allows you to basically destroy anything in 2 rounds. You can argue that the cheaper Black Knights do more reliable straight-up damage and can take down stuff like Knights Panther on their own, unlike the ZD. The problem with them is that more often than not they die before they manage to hit in the melee phase, and because of their low counter your opponent will not hesitate to engage them the way they would against a Dragon.

The ZD are just good in general. Their massive fear imprint allows the rest of your pathetic army to survive a little longer or counter swift enemies, and their ability to fly into position and pin 2-4 enemy disks immediately after being brought back on the map is positively disgusting. While I would recommend you adjust your list to hold 2 Dragons, one is enough as long as you take Invocation.

5. Gaze is situational, Intimidate is always strong

Technically, removing an activation from your opponent's pool is great. The problem is that Gaze itself only has 2 activations, so you're just trading one for one (although you probably won't need more than 10 activations anyway), and it won't do much if your opponent pulls a Devious card. Even when you go first, sometimes it'd be more useful to pin the enemy unit with something that can kill it rather than stun it for a round.

Bottom line, Gaze is not a weak card by any means, but you're almost always better off with Intimidate, which you should always take, even if you have DM. Not only would this card often save your skin, it's good for arranging your opponents' units around so you can pin them better or force them to block and impact each other.

6. Isabella

Isabella is a lot more dangerous with Invocation than she is with her magic, and outperforms Kemmler both in damage output and range. The problem is that unlike Kemmler, she exposes herself in order to destroy stuff and with toughness 4 she can get shredded very quickly. That's why you should keep Beguile or replace it with Proven Champion (Beguile is more flexible, but PC allows you to extend later rounds by a card).

7. Mannfred

Mannfred's two wounds and low recruitment points leave you with only two ways to play him cost-efficiently: either reanimate a Zombie Dragon every single round without exception, or pin an enemy hero or tough unit with him (even if he can't kill them) and hold them down for as long as you can, reanimating from there. As long as Mannfred himself is doing work, it doesn't matter if he's reanimating something smaller than a Zombie Dragon to allow Invocation to be used by Isabella.

8. Empowering

A single empowering card can be the difference between killing something you normally couldn't, surviving a battle you normally shouldn't, or at the very least canceling out your opponent's own empowerment.

CONCLUSION

Whatever the list, you need Invocation. It makes Isabella competitive, it adds both options and volume to your reanimations, and it gives you an unstoppable Zombie Dragon which is IMO the only way to win. I'd also get rid of the GG, for a point less the Banshees are about as good at holding stuff down and will occasionally work miracles.

Actually, this is really helpful.

I think too a weakness in my current strategy is that I tend to have my heroes too far forward, I'm thinking I need to shift to keeping them in the 2nd rank, even Mannfred, until something that gives them Stalwart is available.

​As far as the army performed, I'd say in a competitive tourney, it was disastrous and ineffective. Casually I would have fared okay I imagine, but not against any really mean list. The Vargheist was a complete waste of points and did absolutely nothing useful in all three games. Gaze of Nagash just never seemed to help when I needed it most. Beguile I really like, since it lets me lock down a unit and make sure one of mine survives. Raise Dead I haven't ever liked, it just isn't useful in my mind except as a defense when you are already losing badly. Between being slowly and the reanimated units coming in activated, I just don't see the point.

I will say I think the biggest strong point of the Vampire Counts is they have some of the niftiest command cards in the game. Dark Majesty is just disgustingly good, as is Beguile, but I also think they rely really almost too much on winning the command card draw every single time. That makes them very difficult to play in competitive tournaments where predicting your opponent's command card pick is much harder since you don't have an idea of how they think or play.

And darn you! Now I think I need a second set so I can have two of those Zombie Dragons, I'm thinking something like this list:

Mannfred

2 x Banshees

1 x Zombie Dragon

Isabella

1 x Zombie Dragon

1 x Aspiring Necromancer

1 x Tomb Guard

1 x Skeleton Warriors

Command Cards: Dark Majesty, Intimidate, Beguile, Invocation of Nehek

+3 Initiative (ideally being able to always go first so command card ties go to me)

This list would focus on Mannfred being mostly in the back lines to keep those dragons alive. Isabella is a throwaway hero, she and the zombie dragons are to keep the focus off of Mannfred. What do you think?

I think it's good. Like you said yourself, you need to keep your heroes behind, including Mannfred, until it's time to pounce. I wouldn't consider Isabella expendable, mostly because you still need to win by points and the entire rest of your army will go down for sure.

So, if you screen the Necromancer well (and keep him in terrain) and don't play overly aggressively, you should be able to hold up against any list. Make sure to poison the right targets, and in the later rounds when you will only have time for 1-2 cards try to be in a position where you don't need to rely on DM, because it's a huge gamble. Just the fact that you have +3 initiative without a slow card gives you an edge, though. I think you will immediately be able to appreciate how much easier it is to play with Invocation and Intimidate at your disposal.

I said this over on the other forum, but VC would also benefit dramatically from a hero with a command value greater than two. FFG said in a preview that this was a distinct possibility for later expansions, and I think VC would be first in line for packing their hand with more cards, as they have so many options that compete for limited hand-space.

A couple of quick thoughts on Vampires. I don't think they particularly need more command cards than anyone else. What faction wouldn't appreciate another card or two? In David's list above, Dark Majesty and Intimidate, both to keep his characters clear of opposing pieces. Who else needs to worry this much about their heroes? Dark Majesty falls flat for me, as if you lost the initiative from mid-game on, it's almost completely useless. That was a key play in one of our games at the last tournament. Beguile also seems sub-par. Who cares if the pieces you pin don't hit back at full strenght? Aren't you using your focus powers to either reanimate or shoot Magic? Much, much safer if hero loss is a concern.

I do feel Gaze of Nagash is bonkers good. First of all, the damage alone can be surprisingly useful. Coupled with a Magic attack, you can kill all kinds of pieces their owner previously thought safe. The activation can be a wonderful bonus if you win initiative, or can give you some freedom to dive into melee, pin a disk, and then activate another. Great stuff! More to come later as I get some time.

A couple of quick thoughts on Vampires. I don't think they particularly need more command cards than anyone else. What faction wouldn't appreciate another card or two? In David's list above, Dark Majesty and Intimidate, both to keep his characters clear of opposing pieces. Who else needs to worry this much about their heroes? Dark Majesty falls flat for me, as if you lost the initiative from mid-game on, it's almost completely useless. That was a key play in one of our games at the last tournament. Beguile also seems sub-par. Who cares if the pieces you pin don't hit back at full strenght? Aren't you using your focus powers to either reanimate or shoot Magic? Much, much safer if hero loss is a concern.

I do feel Gaze of Nagash is bonkers good. First of all, the damage alone can be surprisingly useful. Coupled with a Magic attack, you can kill all kinds of pieces their owner previously thought safe. The activation can be a wonderful bonus if you win initiative, or can give you some freedom to dive into melee, pin a disk, and then activate another. Great stuff! More to come later as I get some time.

You're right about DM, it is borderline without-use in the later rounds of the game. But it is really **** good in the early rounds, when you want your heroes to safely get into position so they can reanimate, and that justifies it in most lists.

I don't understand your comments about Beguile, could you explain? It doesn't lower counter, it stops it altogether, thus circumventing Grim Resolve, and it's not a focus ability so it doesn't compete with magic or reanimate . Unless you meant that your heroes won't be pinning anything when using a focus ability, which is not true for Mannfred and Isabella. Plus Beguile is not just a safety card for heroes, you can cast it on targets threatening your other disks.

Gaze of Nagash is bonkers good on paper. In the later stages of the game when rounds only last 1-2 cards and you start each one with almost every disk on the table pinned, you will not want to use it, because winning will hinge on Invocation, Intimidate, Arcane Attack or an empowering card.

I should clarify I am not dismissing Gaze or saying DM and Beguile are very strong, buy I play VC a lot and the only Vampire cards I get consistent benefits out of are Invocation and DM, in that order.