Why do all the US ones sell at RRP? The UK one I got the last few waves from didn't. Is the hit in profit margin really so great that it offsets the edge of additional customers?

I think charity and freeloader are both emotionally laden terms.

Yes, you're right - that's why I chose to use the term 'freeloader', to highlight how charity has a certain ring to it too. The implication of those arguing that they're doing a charity by shopping at a FLGS, is that FLGS owners are freeloaders.

Now, I do get that there's an understanding of charity that doesn't imply that the recipient of the charity is a freeloader, but I do think that there was the implication, above, that the story owner is a little bit of a freeloader, and that I wanted to dispute.

The issue here is that this is a bit of a 'tragedy of the commons' scenario. While you may not benefit in easily measurable terms, or in the short run, you do benefit from the existence of FLGSs. By providing people places to play, share, and learn about games, it keeps the gaming industry alive more than what online retailers can provide for. Further, it helps create and maintain a social glue which our society is in desperate need of. The best argument for that is made in Robert Putnam's book 'Bowling Alone'.

I think tragedy of the commons isn't really fair here because my ideal scenario is NOT the "borrowing" scenario I describe above. I'm not trying to put FFG or FLGS' out of business. I'm trying to get a compromise. We could make an argument that it is the responsibility of game companies to throw the whole industry a bone by not making game abilities or situations that allow for multiple uses of units. But, that wouldn't go over well with the fans. This is the age old question of what the balance is between appeasing consumers and appeasing "stockholders". It IS a balance. Its just a question as to which side of the balance you sympathize with. Some people here sympathize with the businesses. Some sympathize with the players.

Then don't look at the IG-2000 title...

I think tragedy of the commons isn't really fair here because my ideal scenario is NOT the "borrowing" scenario I describe above.

You seem to be mistaking my argument. The commons argument applies to the FLGS vs. online retailer aspect, and the charity vs. freeloader argument. It's not about the borrowing of ships or FFG's success as a company.

Sympathy has very little to do with it: for tournaments you need the right dials because FFG says so.

While it's easy to assume that it's about shifting more MW boxes, I actually geniunely doubt that. I think it's about simplicity and aesthetic.

If you have to have the right dials then all your dials are going to be your faction dials, and that's going to look a lot better than a mishmash of different faction dials. A mishmash of dials also potentially looks like mixing faction ships. Regardless of if they agree with FFG's stance, I think we've all got to admit that a Scum player with all Scum dials in front of him looks a lot better than a mishmash of Rebel, Imperial and Scum.

In addition, requiring faction dials simplifies what the box gives you. Two Zs, one Y-wing and the stuff to convert one Y-wing, one HWK and one Firespray. If you allowed dial matching, then what you can run with that box gets tied to the double sided baseplates (for example you couldn't run the generic on one side at the same time as the unique on the other) and it gets very complicated very quickly. FFG's been very careful to ensure that there are no component limitations for the models in the box so far.

While the stance does require you to buy more MWs to run more copies of those ships there's plenty of other potential reason beyond "moaar coinzzz"

While the stance does require you to buy more MWs to run more copies of those ships there's plenty of other potential reason beyond "moaar coinzzz"

Okay, so why the stuff to convert a Y, HWK and a Firespray, that are not included in the box, but not to convert a Z that's not in the box?

I'm pretty confident that it does have to do with cost, or maybe just how much cardboard they could fit. And, with the cost opportunities, maybe that's a good reason. I don't know what the marginal cost would be of including a carboard piece with a base token and a dial.

but not to convert a Z that's not in the box?

Because the box has two Zs in it. I'm actually surprised they did a Y-wing conversion, they could easily have got away without doing it.

"Got away with" is an interesting choice of words. Fan opinion has at least something to do with it.

I guess where we're at is that if Z "multi-factionalism" isn't allowed, FFG has to live with the fact that some players will buy less when they may have bought more...whether people believe that could or should happen or not.

but not to convert a Z that's not in the box?

Because the box has two Zs in it. I'm actually surprised they did a Y-wing conversion, they could easily have got away without doing it.

I'm pleasantly surprised they did too - and I think it's really awesome of them. I'm just curious about the Z, which is the topic of this thread.

They also have different bases and pilot cards, so they're really not interchangeable without a lot of proxies.

Indeed, rebel Z generics have PS 2 and 4, the scum have PS 1 and 3.

.

As to the bases, the PS value would be primary statistic that would be incorrect...Just like when a player puts VI on a ship!!!

So how could soontir's base be legal with an incorrect stat?!? (I'm being sarcastic here for those that haven't picked up on it yet!)

Which leads to a simple question, how do you keep track of VI pilots on the table with an incorrect PS?

I use the corresponding "tombstone" numbers for the upgraded PS value when I use VI. It could be done for the cross faction ships just as easily. Simple fix!

They also have different bases and pilot cards, so they're really not interchangeable without a lot of proxies.

Indeed, rebel Z generics have PS 2 and 4, the scum have PS 1 and 3.

.

As to the bases, the PS value would be primary statistic that would be incorrect...Just like when a player puts VI on a ship!!!

So how could soontir's base be legal with an incorrect stat?!? (I'm being sarcastic here for those that haven't picked up on it yet!)

Which leads to a simple question, how do you keep track of VI pilots on the table with an incorrect PS?

I use the corresponding "tombstone" numbers for the upgraded PS value when I use VI. It could be done for the cross faction ships just as easily. Simple fix!

The analogy doesn't work, as the VI card is clearly displayed, and we're talking about a named pilot where you need to know their upgrades vs.what could be a large number of similar generics to keep track of.

I dont use the cards...

And I tend not to use many upgrades as I forget about them anyhow because they are off to the side!

They also have different bases and pilot cards, so they're really not interchangeable without a lot of proxies.

Indeed, rebel Z generics have PS 2 and 4, the scum have PS 1 and 3.

.

As to the bases, the PS value would be primary statistic that would be incorrect...Just like when a player puts VI on a ship!!!

So how could soontir's base be legal with an incorrect stat?!? (I'm being sarcastic here for those that haven't picked up on it yet!)

Which leads to a simple question, how do you keep track of VI pilots on the table with an incorrect PS?

I use the corresponding "tombstone" numbers for the upgraded PS value when I use VI. It could be done for the cross faction ships just as easily. Simple fix!

The analogy doesn't work, as the VI card is clearly displayed, and we're talking about a named pilot where you need to know their upgrades vs.what could be a large number of similar generics to keep track of.

I dont use the cards...

And I tend not to use many upgrades as I forget about them anyhow because they are off to the side!

Ok, well, you're welcome to do what you like to do in friendly games of course, but the concerns here I think are more related to competitive play where things should be as clear as possible.

They also have different bases and pilot cards, so they're really not interchangeable without a lot of proxies.

Indeed, rebel Z generics have PS 2 and 4, the scum have PS 1 and 3.

.

As to the bases, the PS value would be primary statistic that would be incorrect...Just like when a player puts VI on a ship!!!

So how could soontir's base be legal with an incorrect stat?!? (I'm being sarcastic here for those that haven't picked up on it yet!)

Which leads to a simple question, how do you keep track of VI pilots on the table with an incorrect PS?

I use the corresponding "tombstone" numbers for the upgraded PS value when I use VI. It could be done for the cross faction ships just as easily. Simple fix!

The analogy doesn't work, as the VI card is clearly displayed, and we're talking about a named pilot where you need to know their upgrades vs.what could be a large number of similar generics to keep track of.

I dont use the cards...

And I tend not to use many upgrades as I forget about them anyhow because they are off to the side!

Ok, well, you're welcome to do what you like to do in friendly games of course, but the concerns here I think are more related to competitive play where things should be as clear as possible.

I even do this at tournaments...

I dont use the cards...

And I tend not to use many upgrades as I forget about them anyhow because they are off to the side!

Ok, well, you're welcome to do what you like to do in friendly games of course, but the concerns here I think are more related to competitive play where things should be as clear as possible.

I even do this at tournaments...

How do you get away with this? Every tournament I've been to requires you to have all the necessary cards for your list visible to your opponent.

I dont use the cards...

And I tend not to use many upgrades as I forget about them anyhow because they are off to the side!

Ok, well, you're welcome to do what you like to do in friendly games of course, but the concerns here I think are more related to competitive play where things should be as clear as possible.

I even do this at tournaments...

How do you get away with this? Every tournament I've been to requires you to have all the necessary cards for your list visible to your opponent.

The rules are there for good reason (for the courtesy of your opponents), and I can't believe it would be something that would be allowed in anything but a casual local tourney.

I dont use the cards...

And I tend not to use many upgrades as I forget about them anyhow because they are off to the side!

Ok, well, you're welcome to do what you like to do in friendly games of course, but the concerns here I think are more related to competitive play where things should be as clear as possible.

I even do this at tournaments...

How do you get away with this? Every tournament I've been to requires you to have all the necessary cards for your list visible to your opponent.

The rules are there for good reason (for the courtesy of your opponents), and I can't believe it would be something that would be allowed in anything but a casual local tourney.

I said I dont use them, not that I didnt have them with me...

I dont use the cards...

And I tend not to use many upgrades as I forget about them anyhow because they are off to the side!

Ok, well, you're welcome to do what you like to do in friendly games of course, but the concerns here I think are more related to competitive play where things should be as clear as possible.

I even do this at tournaments...

How do you get away with this? Every tournament I've been to requires you to have all the necessary cards for your list visible to your opponent.

The rules are there for good reason (for the courtesy of your opponents), and I can't believe it would be something that would be allowed in anything but a casual local tourney.

I said I dont use them, not that I didnt have them with me...

I not sure I know what you're getting at anymore

I dont use the cards...

And I tend not to use many upgrades as I forget about them anyhow because they are off to the side!

Ok, well, you're welcome to do what you like to do in friendly games of course, but the concerns here I think are more related to competitive play where things should be as clear as possible.

I even do this at tournaments...

How do you get away with this? Every tournament I've been to requires you to have all the necessary cards for your list visible to your opponent.

The rules are there for good reason (for the courtesy of your opponents), and I can't believe it would be something that would be allowed in anything but a casual local tourney.

I said I dont use them, not that I didnt have them with me...

I not sure I know what you're getting at anymore

The whole point is that the "tombstone" number markers are on the ships representing the correct PS value and it is clear to everyone! Hence, having an incorrect PS value on a base is a very minor issue this way...

This works equally well for VI upgrades and Scum vs Rebel bases...

The whole point is that the "tombstone" number markers are on the ships representing the correct PS value and it is clear to everyone! Hence, having an incorrect PS value on a base is a very minor issue this way...

This works equally well for VI upgrades and Scum vs Rebel bases...

Sure, and I do that with VI, but it's displayed in multiple places. It only works if you have one "incorrect" PS of a certain level because you can't double up on ID tokens.

So, if you are hoping to use four Z-95s, two scum and two rebel, all at the same PS, you have two tombstone markers that are the same but you need to denote that they are different ships as well for damage tracking.

I'll add that they're still different since in one situation (VI), the player is following the rules and is adding information for the courtesy of his opponent to something that is completely legal and already displayed (VI card) and would need to be remembered like any other upgrade card. The other (mixing rebel Z-95), the player is doing something illegal and using it to correct misinformation.

here is the argument to me:

a ship is a game component.

a cardboard ship ID is a game component

a ship dial is a game component.

I can mix components as I see fit. i.e. I can use a rebel y-wing, and a scum ID card.

This has been spelled out, and is in fact the point of Most Wanted as a core principal:

You may mix and match game components(even cross faction).

How can it be that you can mix some...but not all components if they serve the same function?

To exclude a dial simply because it does not have the same "paint job" as a rebel dial seems a touch strange.

If the color is the only difference, would it not follow that you would not be allowed to use a blue rebel aces A-wing to represent Tyco? They did not come in the same box.

I have heard that Frank said that you will not be allowed to mix dials, but I hope he is wrong. It is not a question of money, but of continuity. To not introduce a silly restriction that contradicts another allowance.

I really don't understand the complaints here. Unless every single game you play is a tournament then you can borrow or proxy cards and then figure out how many copies you want. I have even used a proxy in a game with my buddy to see if I really wanted to try a squad with more models then I had available. If I liked it I pick up additional ships. I own four rebel Z's because I tried teams with more and decided that four was enough. How many argueing have flown an Z swarm? This may not even be a team you want to play after all. The most wanted box is already an excellent value because I can open one box and have five ships to fly. I will buy two and have ten ships to choose from, if it turns out I want more Z's then I will adjust accordingly. I could complain that I already had five Y's but instead shipped one to my son and looking forward to a half dozen models when it gets in our hands. You are only required to buy one....if you want to play in tournaments then explain one thing that is done competively that does not require extra money spent to compete at that level. Honestly I think some people would complain if they were paid to play. Who out there that plays this game doesn't have a buddy that they play with that they can't say hey, I'd like to try this team out and I don't have the Rebel dials but everything else is right, care if I play it? This person is going to say: no we can't do that. I mean really?

I believe the answer for why you can mix Rebel models is because if you couldn't then every single model that someone had put so much as a drop of paint on would not be tournament legal. They have always allowed repainting of ships.

I believe the answer for why you can mix Rebel models is because if you couldn't then every single model that someone had put so much as a drop of paint on would not be tournament legal. They have always allowed repainting of ships.

I agree with your point....you can have components that look different, and they are completely tournament legal.

So why do we think some components are different than others? I think the easy solution is to paint all your dials black. Then you can mix them as you see fit. Since repaints are legal, this should not be a problem for tourneys.

I believe the answer for why you can mix Rebel models is because if you couldn't then every single model that someone had put so much as a drop of paint on would not be tournament legal. They have always allowed repainting of ships.

I agree with your point....you can have components that look different, and they are completely tournament legal.

So why do we think some components are different than others? I think the easy solution is to paint all your dials black. Then you can mix them as you see fit. Since repaints are legal, this should not be a problem for tourneys.

You may have just found the loophole. All black dials with ship type printed on it should be legal.

All black dials with ship type printed on it should be legal.

That's highly unlikely. Because then the TO or the other guy can't tell what dial you actually have. You're allowed to make a mark so you can tell your dial from the other persons. But painting the whole thing black is not by any means the same thing.

If you have a TO who won't allow you to use a dial from the wrong faction, they won't let you use one painted black either. The TO has the final say and can tell you that you can't use those dials.