I agree. I plan to but at least 2 boxes.

You cannot use a Scum dial to represent a Rebel ship or vice versa in an official X-wing event. Period.

Sure you can, if the TO allows it. If the TO at next year's regionals declines to enforce an obviously stupid rule then players can have mixed dials. The only time you can guarantee that you can't mix dials will be when the TO is a FFG employee. Nobody else has any incentive to enforce a pointless "you must spend more money" rule.

Additionally, Most Wanted in itself looks like a great value, so bargaining for even more mileage out of it just sounds cheap.

Yeah, how dare people object to throwing away money just so the colors of their dials can match. We should just be glad that FFG exists and give them all of our gaming money without question!

Who knows this may be a decision they made more or less just based on aesthetics, and they decided that they just wanted people to only use the proper faction parts so everything looks more uniform.

I don't think it was about aesthetics, because you're allowed to mix rebel and scum models, something that makes a much bigger aesthetic difference. If you're going to allow mixed models then the only reason to ban mixed dials is to force people to spend more money.

They also have different bases and pilot cards, so they're really not interchangeable without a lot of proxies.

Indeed, rebel Z generics have PS 2 and 4, the scum have PS 1 and 3.

.

As to the bases, the PS value would be primary statistic that would be incorrect...Just like when a player puts VI on a ship!!!

So how could soontir's base be legal with an incorrect stat?!? (I'm being sarcastic here for those that haven't picked up on it yet!)

Which leads to a simple question, how do you keep track of VI pilots on the table with an incorrect PS?

I use the corresponding "tombstone" numbers for the upgraded PS value when I use VI. It could be done for the cross faction ships just as easily. Simple fix!

I still think there is confusion here and I should have settled it in my last post. Sorry.

The original Z-95s come with TWO bases, not just one. I don't remember the exact configuration, but this is what we want to be able to do in a Rebel squad:

1) Have a Rebel Z-95 model with a rebel dial, appropriate rebel card, rebel base that matches the card.

2) Have a Scum Z-95 model with a scum dial, appropriate rebel card, the OTHER rebel base that matches that card.

That doesn't allow you to run two Talas from the same Rebel pack obviously, but if I can use the model and dial from Scum, then it would still work.

I personally think that it would be smart marketing to allow this to happen in tournaments, because I think people will be much more likely to get into Scum if they can also bolster their Rebels. I realize I'm far from the first person to want this or mention it.

My bad as well, I thought you wished for a squad of Tala's or Bandits only. Which would make you need more than just the dial.

Sorry for my misunderstanding.

They also have different bases and pilot cards, so they're really not interchangeable without a lot of proxies.

Indeed, rebel Z generics have PS 2 and 4, the scum have PS 1 and 3.

.

As to the bases, the PS value would be primary statistic that would be incorrect...Just like when a player puts VI on a ship!!!

So how could soontir's base be legal with an incorrect stat?!? (I'm being sarcastic here for those that haven't picked up on it yet!)

Which leads to a simple question, how do you keep track of VI pilots on the table with an incorrect PS?

I use the corresponding "tombstone" numbers for the upgraded PS value when I use VI. It could be done for the cross faction ships just as easily. Simple fix!

I will remember using the tombstones for the guy with VI, thanks!

You cannot use a Scum dial to represent a Rebel ship or vice versa in an official X-wing event. Period.

All this word twisting doesn't change it. You want to play casual, sure whatever you want. In a tournament, no matter how cheap/broke/vehement you are, you need the faction appropriate dial for each ship represented.

Additionally, Most Wanted in itself looks like a great value, so bargaining for even more mileage out of it just sounds cheap. You know what I want out of Most Wanted?! A Horton card with an EPT!

Tournament organizers in my area disagree with you. They don't expect to see it at a major tournament, like Worlds or a Regionals, but for other tournaments, they don't see a problem. Because they aren't jerks about it.

And I don't appreciate you calling me cheap. You don't know me. You don't know my life situation. It is categorically poor taste to call someone cheap when they don't know someone's life situation. What you call cheap, I call wanting to use my funds as efficiently as I can. I'm sorry if the funds I spend on my mortgage, spouse, health and career are a higher priority than the game. Does that, in your eyes, really mean that I shouldn't be able to play the game to its full extent just because I can't collect it at the level of a serious collector?

If I'm cheap, you're elitist.

You cannot use a Scum dial to represent a Rebel ship or vice versa in an official X-wing event. Period.

All this word twisting doesn't change it. You want to play casual, sure whatever you want. In a tournament, no matter how cheap/broke/vehement you are, you need the faction appropriate dial for each ship represented.

Additionally, Most Wanted in itself looks like a great value, so bargaining for even more mileage out of it just sounds cheap. You know what I want out of Most Wanted?! A Horton card with an EPT!

Tournament organizers in my area disagree with you. They don't expect to see it at a major tournament, like Worlds or a Regionals, but for other tournaments, they don't see a problem. Because they aren't jerks about it.

And I don't appreciate you calling me cheap. You don't know me. You don't know my life situation. It is categorically poor taste to call someone cheap when they don't know someone's life situation. What you call cheap, I call wanting to use my funds as efficiently as I can. I'm sorry if the funds I spend on my mortgage, spouse, health and career are a higher priority than the game. Does that, in your eyes, really mean that I shouldn't be able to play the game to its full extent just because I can't collect it at the level of a serious collector?

If I'm cheap, you're elitist.

I can't see any of the TOs in my area (Of which I am one some days) allowing mixed dials on the table. However, we have a largish player base with a few players who have multiples of everything so usually you just borrow what you need for a tournament. (My idea of large tops out at 14 or so past that I think its amazing but hard to find space to run)

Can we get just a touch more acidic in here? I've been missing our usual flamewars.

It seems to me that the rule is going to allow you to use models according to your liking. Everything else needs to be faction specific.

However looking at the image below, it seems like FFG is going out of its way with the Most Wanted box to give people with Rebel Y-Wings, HWKs, and Imperial Firesprays the opportunity to use them without needing to buy the models. However, with Z's it looks like you're out of luck, because they only have one dial for each of the Z-95 models in the box. I'm also only seeing 3 Z-95 base tokens in the picture (two on the models, one in the foreground). Unless there are base tokens that have different ships on the flip-side (it's possible...but...), that suggests that there's just enough for all the combinations made possible by the box itself, but none for rebel Z-95 models being corrupted to use with Scum.

We see the PS 5 and 7 named sides, as well as the Black Sun PS3. That means there should be 2 Binayre pirates on the flip-sides and 1 other Black Sun pirate.

It seems to me that the effect of this is to make the Z-Swarm something that only the big investor will be able to fly, and then they'll only be able to fly it for one faction, unless they go big and get four MW boxes and eight Z-95 expansions for the rebels.

I can't see any of the TOs in my area allowing mixed dials on the table.

Rather than point out how silly that is by being sarcastic, I guess I will just come out and ask what consequences that would result inspire you to stop some from twisting a dial that is identical in gamplay effect but different in color.

So, why? If someone customizes their dials with a different color marker or a sticker, would you tell them to go play somewhere else?

Well there is the fact that the VENUE which we get to play in for FREE losses money if we decide to allow proxies into tournaments? The rule in every other game they run events for IE. Magic/Yugioh/et all doesn't allow for proxies. The idea that this kind of rule only benefits FFG is odd because the LGS that host the events do have to make money at some point as well.

Edited beyond this point:

As for stickers or paint. Most of the players I know have a Sticker or dot of paint on the back of their movement dials. Just makes mirror matches easier and makes sure you go home with the same dials you started with.

It is a proxy in the loosest sense. You would have to purchase the Most Wanted Pack to get it. So, your argument basically comes down to: "You should have spent 30 dollars on two Z-95 packs instead of 40 on a Most Wanted pack. You monster!"

It just really surprises me that "part way" isn't far enough for some of you. Its as if I buy two Z-95s that I don't need and then buy no Most Wanted, I'm a "better" fan in some of your eyes than if I buy Most Wanted, ask for those Z-95s to be useable in a Rebel squad, and then continue to buy. Greater raw dollars is less support...on principle!

It is a proxy in the loosest sense. You would have to purchase the Most Wanted Pack to get it. So, your argument basically comes down to: "You should have spent 30 dollars on two Z-95 packs instead of 40 on a Most Wanted pack. You monster!"

I agree with this. I think that the best solution would have been for FFG to have included more base tokens for Z-95s in their Most Wanted pack the way that they did for the Firespray and the Y-Wing, and then to allow the rebel dials. As it is, I think you'll be at the mercy of the TO if you want to bring more than two Z-95s of either faction, if you have 2 rebel Zs and the 2 S&V Zs from the MW pack.

Now, maybe FFG customer service will be really awesome (and I hear that they are), but that's a LOT of customer service and postage to provide everyone with rebel Zs with Z-95 dials and base tokens.

Well there is the fact that the VENUE which we get to play in for FREE losses money if we decide to allow proxies into tournaments?

Actually, this is far from certain. Remember, game stores only exist because of charity donations. It's almost always cheaper to buy something online, the only reason to buy from your local store is if you want to donate a little money as a thank you for providing a good place to play. So banning proxies doesn't necessarily increase sales if people get annoyed at the rule and buy the correct dials online instead. In fact, it's quite possible that those players would be unhappy enough about it to start making all of their purchases online and stop making charity donations entirely.

Also, consider this: from the perspective of a store owner what exactly is the difference between a "proxy" dial and a dial that was bought from a different store? Should store owners also enforce a rule that you have to provide proof that you purchased all of your stuff in their store? Would it be reasonable to expect players to buy duplicates of everything if they want to play in tournaments at both stores in their area?

Actually, this is far from certain. Remember, game stores only exist because of charity donations. It's almost always cheaper to buy something online, the only reason to buy from your local store is if you want to donate a little money as a thank you for providing a good place to play.

Bro', I'm with you on the idea that rebel Zs (models and dials) should be able to fly in Scum lists (and vice versa) in tournaments, but I feel your argumentation here is dead wrong.

Yes, it's true that you can buy stuff cheaper online, but to call it charity gets the whole thing back asswards. If you bring your online-purchased material in their store (which is perfectly legit) it's you who is soaking up the charity. Now, if you do as I do and buy at the stores exclusively (including the CR-90) then you're even keel with the store when you play there. It's not even charity when you buy at the store and play at home (or elsewhere). They're selling you something that they had to take the risk of having in inventory and paying their store upkeep costs.

So, the big question is: is there a rule against modifying the color of your dial? If not, pull apart a rebel dial you are not using and mix and match. Or just black sharpie every dial you have. It does not make the dial "unrecognizable", which I think is the "rule" for modification. You can check it against other "unmodified" dials for reference if there is a question.

I get it. But I don't get it. Sounds like encouraging a secondary market to me which hurts both ffg and local stores. The game IS getting big enough. Be careful or the market will demand a 3rd answer tithe problem (especially if shortages and distribution continues to be a problem).

I get it. But I don't get it. Sounds like encouraging a secondary market to me which hurts both ffg and local stores. The game IS getting big enough. Be careful or the market will demand a 3rd answer tithe problem (especially if shortages and distribution continues to be a problem).

Of course, this will impact the degree to which individual TOs apply the rules. I'm fairly confident that my local TOs will run things fairly casual and that players won't complain about mere symbolic things. That said, I don't get the sense that my scene would approve of out-and-out proxies. With the materials currently included in Most Wanted, it's really making the Z-95 situation one where there will be a greater likelihood of people wanting to proxy the base tokens, which are the bottleneck IMV.

It would be best if FFG simply included a couple of extra base tokens for Z-95s in Most Wanted.

How bout just using the correct ships in their factions to begin with...easy and simple.

Yeah but can tell me you have never seen a Royal Guard Tie interceptor model used with another pilot besides Canor Jax, Kir Kanos, or Royal Guard Pilot?

It is sort of cool to use a different painted model for a characters. Such as using the S&V Headhunter model with Lt. Blount and having 2 Tala squadron pilots using the standard blue rebel models. Or having Horton + 2 Gold pilots using 2 rebel Y-wings as the golds with the S&V as Horton.

Actually, this is far from certain. Remember, game stores only exist because of charity donations. It's almost always cheaper to buy something online, the only reason to buy from your local store is if you want to donate a little money as a thank you for providing a good place to play.

Bro', I'm with you on the idea that rebel Zs (models and dials) should be able to fly in Scum lists (and vice versa) in tournaments, but I feel your argumentation here is dead wrong.

Yes, it's true that you can buy stuff cheaper online, but to call it charity gets the whole thing back asswards. If you bring your online-purchased material in their store (which is perfectly legit) it's you who is soaking up the charity. Now, if you do as I do and buy at the stores exclusively (including the CR-90) then you're even keel with the store when you play there. It's not even charity when you buy at the store and play at home (or elsewhere). They're selling you something that they had to take the risk of having in inventory and paying their store upkeep costs.

It depends what the situation is where you are, but here I agree entirely with iPeregrine (possibly a first). I play primarily at a club, I have absolutely no need to play in the FLGS. Yes, I do so now and again and I buy plenty of stuff there- purely because I like the guy who runs it and want to support his business. I could easily buy everything online, only play at the club and save myself some cash. If your only place to play is the FLGS the situation isn't quite the same- although if there is more than one in the area...

FLGS really rely on the goodwill of their customers. Alienating customers is not a smart move. My primary motivation for buying from the FLGS is the good feeling I get from knowing I'm supporting a decent dude's business, not because

I get any other great benefit from it.

It depends what the situation is where you are, but here I agree entirely with iPeregrine (possibly a first). I play primarily at a club, I have absolutely no need to play in the FLGS. Yes, I do so now and again and I buy plenty of stuff there- purely because I like the guy who runs it and want to support his business. I could easily buy everything online, only play at the club and save myself some cash. If your only place to play is the FLGS the situation isn't quite the same- although if there is more than one in the area...

FLGS really rely on the goodwill of their customers. Alienating customers is not a smart move. My primary motivation for buying from the FLGS is the good feeling I get from knowing I'm supporting a decent dude's business, not because

I get any other great benefit from it.

Well, I'm glad you do - but who is talking about FLGSs alienating their customers? I'm just saying that it's a little demeaning to think of it as a form of charity to buy stuff from a store. The store owner is working for a living, providing something you love.

Sure, you could take your money elsewhere and save a little. I guess you don't rely on your FLGS to play - hell, I could also have people over to my house to play (though I'd have to negotiate that with the missus). However, at the FLGS I get to meet with and play against people I would not otherwise meet. It provides a social hub that invites more people walking in the opportunity to also see and learn about the game, and get in on it too.

In the macro-sense, that's good for us all, because more customers for the FLGS and FFG means that the game we love gets bigger, and we get to buy more pretty toys. That's a 'positive externality' right there that I think we should take into account. That's something that the FLGS provides that the online retailer doesn't.

The store owner is working for a living, providing something you love.

And that's exactly why it's an act of charity. You're voluntarily paying extra money for something because you appreciate what the store owner does and want to reward it. There's no difference between paying $15 for a $13 X-Wing ship at your local store and just handing the store owner $2, except maybe a little pride in running a business vs. taking explicit gifts.

Of course there is a difference between the two. The store provides more than a online retailer does (see above). Maybe you choose not to appreciate those extras, but that doesn't mean they're absent. If the store owner is working for it (and paying overhead), then it ain't charity.

If you buy at the FLGS, you're not giving to charity; you're choosing not to be a freeloader.

I think charity and freeloader are both emotionally laden terms. There's been a lot of good points on both sides of the discussion. I support FLGS' part of the time and buy online part of the time. I am against the destruction of small businesses in an unfair market. But that's my bigger concern in this issue. The market is inherently unfair to small businesses. Explain to me how that's my fault? Explain to me why I'm OBLIGATED to take a personal hit so that the small business owner gets a benefit? They don't give me any financial benefits. I pay full price for things that I could get for far cheaper, a good chunk of the time. I don't PLAY at my FLGS, except for tournaments, which I pay an entry fee for. So I get a place for tournaments. That's it. A space for three hours. Is that not enough? Should I be bleeding for gaming or something?

I'm not trying to shift the argument or argue a different argument. I just think its unfair to say that my choices of purchases in a game categorically means that I'm not supporting local stores or FFG. That is a straw man leap, imo.

Look at it this way: What if I buy absolutely nothing extra and BORROW two rebel Zs from someone, who uses those same Zs the next week in a tournament? By the logic of some people, that is me being a poor fan. There was 30 retail spent on those two Zs. If I buy a Most Wanted at 40 and am able to use those Zs in either rebel of scum squads, my friend and I would have spent 70 total on the hobby/FLGS. But if I borrow two Zs for use in a tournament, that's only that original 30 dollars. I'm a bad fan because I didn't contribute to the hobby with those Zs? I'm a bad player for BORROWING? Remember that the dollar outcome for the FLGS and FFG is the same as me not buying. That is how I view some of the arguments here. Right now I'm kinda leaning to just borrowing, since some of you seem to think I'm some kind of jerk for wanting to use my funds efficiently. When you play in tournaments, do you ask someone if they borrowed their pieces? Do you ask to see their proofs of purchase? There's a friend I have who I let borrow pieces because he can't afford to buy ANYTHING. Would you tell him to walk from your tournament if you found out he borrowed pieces from me?

I started this thread wanting to use 40 dollars efficiently, and some of you are doing the exact opposite of what you intended and are talking me into spending zero now and just borrowing the two Zs. This is what happens when you take a hardline stance on "you should have to spend full price to support the company!" You end up talking people out of what you want because you don't see the downside of the hardline stance, not the upside of a little leniency in rules.

I really don't see what it hurts, as long as the card and template are correct. But I digress, continue your arguments.

Just so I'm clear here, what I (and I'm sure many) want to do is the following:

1) Use Scum model

2) Use Scum dial

3) Use appropriate legal Rebel base from prior expansion.

Tournamentwise you need the right dial and base. The model can be either.

Casual, do whatever you want.

I think charity and freeloader are both emotionally laden terms.

Yes, you're right - that's why I chose to use the term 'freeloader', to highlight how charity has a certain ring to it too. The implication of those arguing that they're doing a charity by shopping at a FLGS, is that FLGS owners are freeloaders.

Now, I do get that there's an understanding of charity that doesn't imply that the recipient of the charity is a freeloader, but I do think that there was the implication, above, that the story owner is a little bit of a freeloader, and that I wanted to dispute.

There's been a lot of good points on both sides of the discussion. I support FLGS' part of the time and buy online part of the time. I am against the destruction of small businesses in an unfair market. But that's my bigger concern in this issue. The market is inherently unfair to small businesses. Explain to me how that's my fault? Explain to me why I'm OBLIGATED to take a personal hit so that the small business owner gets a benefit? They don't give me any financial benefits. I pay full price for things that I could get for far cheaper, a good chunk of the time. I don't PLAY at my FLGS, except for tournaments, which I pay an entry fee for. So I get a place for tournaments. That's it. A space for three hours. Is that not enough? Should I be bleeding for gaming or something?

The issue here is that this is a bit of a 'tragedy of the commons' scenario. While you may not benefit in easily measurable terms, or in the short run, you do benefit from the existence of FLGSs. By providing people places to play, share, and learn about games, it keeps the gaming industry alive more than what online retailers can provide for. Further, it helps create and maintain a social glue which our society is in desperate need of. The best argument for that is made in Robert Putnam's book 'Bowling Alone'.

No, you're not legally obligated to shop at the FLGS, but I certainly think it's healthier for society - of which you are a part - if you do shop at the FLGS.

So, all of the above is just my position on the FLGS vs. online retailer argument. Regarding the Zs, I just think that FFG should have more Z-95 base tokens in the MW box to allow more people to more easily play Z-swarms, if that's what they want to do.