....A lone voice......
You know in a normally contentious forum... you may well be right there. 
i'm not feeling much of a disturbance in the force here 
ship mods
Call me a purist.
I just realize high tech equipment cannot be modified easily..certainly NOT for general use. We're NOT talking bolting armor on a humvee here.
Try doing that to an F22!! 
.
Gotta go to work now...
Edited by mikeespoGoodness, this thread is frustrating.
As DariusAPB noted numerous times, fluff wise it makes perfect sense (excellent posts by the way, and mikeespo hasn't really acknowledged them).
Furthermore, I'll go out on a limb here and argue that 98% of the community agree that modifications are fairly balanced (we will see about tactical jammer, but that's not the point of this thread).
Frankly, there isn't much to discuss. 
No but you could have an F22 with better after sales fitted avionics and radar couldnt you.
Or better chaff and flares than the stock model you bought from macdonnel douglas (or whoever, im not into planes) two years ago as you've come up with a better type.
WWII is a great example for aircraft as they were frequently upgunned and uparmoured, often at the cost of performance or manouvreability
I see your point but i think its a core part of the game. Unless you play the quickstart rules or *only* ever play likeminded mates you've sort of got to buy into it.
I dont like the idea of rebel vs rebel games, my mates dont either so we dont play it at home or in the pub *but* i kow if i go to a tourny im going to have to deal with it.
Call me a purist.
I just realize high tech equipment cannot be modified easily..certainly NOT for general use. We're NOT talking bolting armor on a humvee here.
Try doing that to an F22!!
Gotta go to work now...
I can't see why an F22 can't be uparmoured if the thrust etc is equally modified to compensate - all of this being moot because avionics and physics are more or less totally ignored in the SW universe.
Like I had previously noted, we don't get to see the non combat effects.
That extra armour? boom it replaced where the emergency supplies go?
Engine upgrade? welp. that's another engine burned out. 3 days to replace.
Munitions failsafe? same point as emergency suppies, or had to overcharge engines to compensate for weight, woop burned out engine, 3 days to replace.
I see modifications as the ground crew or hangar deck staffs efforts to do what needs to be done in that critical mission.
For all you know the advanced cloaking device you are putting on your phantom is giving the crew space aids if used long term. Or more likely frying the systems requiring total expensive and time consuming refits between flights.
In game terms it's a mechanic that's been there from the getgo, and is not unbalanced - as Gadge I think noted usually it's better NOT to take them.
I agree with the dissenters here. I see no problem with modification upgrades.
I'll also point out that there are many cases where modifications are not worth it. Hull/Shield mods are worth very little on low-agility ships, as are stealth devices. I think the only modification that is common and powerful is the engine upgrade, which is most often seen on large ships such as the rebel YTs and the Firespray.
It's the exception rather than the rule that mods are good.
Also, there is not one upgrade card that does not fundamentally alter the performance of a ship. If your objection to modification upgrades is that they change the ship they're on, the same applies to virtually every other class of upgrade card.
Illegal and esoteric modifications are being explored in the 'illicit' upgrade slot though, and they're restricted to scum at the moment. That is more in line with your thinking I think.
Amusing POV here.
Whilst, I disagree with the OP I can completely empathise with is argument/position. I got into this game because it Star Wars, I love the Original Trilogy and have no interest in the EU. As far as I'm concerned, Disney are the best thing to happen to SW since Jedi. My small group of gaming buddies only play OT. Not because phantoms are OP, not because we want to run duel Falcon lists .. but because it is what we like. We like seeing X-Wings blaze Tie-Fighters and visa versa.
To us, that is the Star Wars universe.
I totally get the OT purist point as well.
Felt that way myself for some time tbh, EU has just grown on me.
As i've said a few times, our group dont like same faction fights... its just not star wars
But to most people on here it is the bread and butter of the game, they fully expect to fight the same faction at least half the time at an event.
I respect OT purity to an extent, but dammit the EU was brilliant in parts.
I respect OT purity to an extent, but dammit the EU was brilliant in parts.
Fella, I find it really hard to agree with that. Does it make you wrong .. yes!
I jest. Of course it doesn't.
We all like SW for various reasons. The SW universe in each of our minds adheres to certain parameters and expectations. To me, the EU just didn't fit these images (with the exception of the Stackpole books). To the OP, modifications on generic ships don't fit his/her perception of the SW universe.
To Darius, certain parts of EU fit his/her universe, others don't.
Gadge's SW universe is currently in a transitional state from being an OP purist to accepting EU .. meaning we can't be friends anymore 
I respect OT purity to an extent, but dammit the EU was brilliant in parts.
Fella, I find it really hard to agree with that. Does it make you wrong .. yes!
I jest. Of course it doesn't.
We all like SW for various reasons. The SW universe in each of our minds adheres to certain parameters and expectations. To me, the EU just didn't fit these images (with the exception of the Stackpole books). To the OP, modifications on generic ships don't fit his/her perception of the SW universe.
To Darius, certain parts of EU fit his/her universe, others don't.
Gadge's SW universe is currently in a transitional state from being an OP purist to accepting EU .. meaning we can't be friends anymore
It really does depend on the parts of the EU though. Rogue/wraith squadron, anything Timothy Zahn and all of the KOTOR stuff is my "in". The original X-wing and TIE fighter - where it doesn't conflict is also in.
Cherrypicking various ships and bits for RPG d20 purposes. Totally in.
Anything NJO, Vong etc. Out. Trash.
Edited by DariusAPBhahahah
I was always 'sort of' ok with phantoms and defenders and HWK as dark forces and tie fighter were such good games.
Since then i've read a lot of the graphic novels... cant be doing with the vong nonsense but some of the EU stuff can be pretty good.
Personally (and consider i used to edit sci fi and fantasy novels for a living) i think Stackpole is a dire author. I couldn't get through even half of his 'warrior - en garde' battletech books and i love BT.
Normally i'll masochistically read even terrible books to the end but it was just awful.
Its subjective though isnt it. My friend Gavin who lives on my street has a young lad who grew up with the prequels,he thinks they are amazing , he like the OT too... he doesnt see any distinction between the two. To him its one long story in six parts.
To us as adults we had a decade of people filling in the gaps as to what the clone wars were, where han solo did this or that etc and when Lucas puts something out that doesnt fit what we read as a 18 year old we get stroppy about it.
Human nature.
hahahah
I was always 'sort of' ok with phantoms and defenders and HWK as dark forces and tie fighter were such good games.
Since then i've read a lot of the graphic novels... cant be doing with the vong nonsense but some of the EU stuff can be pretty good.
Personally (and consider i used to edit sci fi and fantasy novels for a living) i think Stackpole is a dire author. I couldn't get through even half of his 'warrior - en garde' battletech books and i love BT.
Normally i'll masochistically read even terrible books to the end but it was just awful.
Its subjective though isnt it. My friend Gavin who lives on my street has a young lad who grew up with the prequels,he thinks they are amazing , he like the OT too... he doesnt see any distinction between the two. To him its one long story in six parts.
To us as adults we had a decade of people filling in the gaps as to what the clone wars were, where han solo did this or that etc and when Lucas puts something out that doesnt fit what we read as a 18 year old we get stroppy about it.
Human nature.
You know i've made my peace with the prequels. Every D20 game i GM Gungans die - it's true, but most of it I am ok with.
Not how I imagined Anakins fall, but hey... I would have wrote it better.
What do you mean "prequels"? I've only heard of Episodes IV, V, and VI.
What do you mean "prequels"? I've only heard of Episodes IV, V, and VI.
Used to be there myself...
Don't think so. Been war gaming almost 40 years...
I guessing you haven't played this game long. The points system is one of the reasons why this game is so well balanced. your serious objections will greatly limit your play group.
Points don't matter in certain situations...especially 4 or so. Even 10 in a 100 point game is not much.
Ya, I'm confused.They're balanced in the way that they have a point cost attached to them.
I mean, they are called modifications for a reason....I have trouble pronouncing canonically hehe
As for my comment about not playing one who used them. Yeah harsh. Would always play but would explain why it's not a good idea. There is no accumulated damage rule in this game other than crits. A ship will operate perfectly with one hull remaining.
I am sure the design intent was for mods to be used with pirates "tinkering" ala Solo. Not for general use.
I have to say that I'm half and half on this, I can see both sides of the fence and I think there is a clear area that the fence divides that you can point to if you think about it for a moment.
Your argument falls flat when you start talking about Han Solo being a pirate and justify his modifications as allowable because of it. He's not a pirate he's part of the Rebel faction.
But does he get a modified ship and no one else... I imagine that if some jumped into the cockpit other than him and Chewbacca the wouldn't get away with flying the Falcon into battle as if it was some generic battle craft that every low ranking pilot can use. It happens to be his own ship. Likewise, ace pilots have there ships painted certain ways, with their tally of enemy take downs painted on the hull, and if some rookie jumped in that fighter to fly it into battle there would be hell to pay. It's his ship and he modifies it the way he likes it because he's had it for a long time, knows it inside out, and people trust that he knows what to do with it, or he trusts his mechanic to tune it up as he likes it.
So my dividing line for who gets to use modifications and who does not, if you have to draw that line, would be named pilots only, and generic pilots with no special abilities would not. It's their ship, it has their enemy take down tally painted on it and no one uses it but them, while the rest of the ships any rookie pilot or non-ace can jump into whatever fighter is available. Probably not entirely accurate, since pilots start at a higher rank than regular soldiers do and have the perks that go with that rank, but at least there's a clearer delineating point.
The ace pilot is going to out rank the mechanic, and will get whatever plates welded on he wants, that are not too off the original specs. It's probably a coincidence that the hull card has two people on it and one of them is welding.
I've ran out of likes here....
yeah my mum could have written a better script for the prequels
The crazy thing was Lucas had written a lot of it out in a much better form (or had ok'd it and someone else had written it *years* ago) but not as three tedious films. I know he always says that but hes always changing his mind on whether he wrote one, three, six or now nine films.....
The whole vader fights kenobi on a planet and falls into lava and thats why hes a cyborg... thats like the *only* good bit in the prequels and that bit was in a star wars annual i had around 1981....
Alpha 1 and 2. I know you have only 20 flight hours but we need sector AJ84 reconned ASAP.
"But Sir, that's 3 weeks away at top sublight speed"
"Your ships will be outfitted with hyperdrives, we have to strip down some reactor plating so the ships will need full refurbishment, but that's less critical than the mission. "
"Due to the high amount of debris you are likely to encounter, we've also had shield generators installed. They won't do much in a major battle, but will keep your ship from being holed."
"aye sir".
And thus, we have 2 rookie ties with shield gens away from carrier support.
Edited by DariusAPBI could have written a better script for the prequels with a bowl of alphabet soup!
Don't think so. Been war gaming almost 40 years...
I guessing you haven't played this game long. The points system is one of the reasons why this game is so well balanced. your serious objections will greatly limit your play group.
Points don't matter in certain situations...especially 4 or so. Even 10 in a 100 point game is not much.
Ya, I'm confused.They're balanced in the way that they have a point cost attached to them.
I mean, they are called modifications for a reason....I have trouble pronouncing canonically hehe
As for my comment about not playing one who used them. Yeah harsh. Would always play but would explain why it's not a good idea. There is no accumulated damage rule in this game other than crits. A ship will operate perfectly with one hull remaining.
I am sure the design intent was for mods to be used with pirates "tinkering" ala Solo. Not for general use.
I have to say that I'm half and half on this, I can see both sides of the fence and I think there is a clear area that the fence divides that you can point to if you think about it for a moment.Your argument falls flat when you start talking about Han Solo being a pirate and justify his modifications as allowable because of it. He's not a pirate he's part of the Rebel faction.But does he get a modified ship and no one else... I imagine that if some jumped into the cockpit other than him and Chewbacca the wouldn't get away with flying the Falcon into battle as if it was some generic battle craft that every low ranking pilot can use. It happens to be his own ship. Likewise, ace pilots have there ships painted certain ways, with their tally of enemy take downs painted on the hull, and if some rookie jumped in that fighter to fly it into battle there would be hell to pay. It's his ship and he modifies it the way he likes it because he's had it for a long time, knows it inside out, and people trust that he knows what to do with it, or he trusts his mechanic to tune it up as he likes it.So my dividing line for who gets to use modifications and who does not, if you have to draw that line, would be named pilots only, and generic pilots with no special abilities would not. It's their ship, it has their enemy take down tally painted on it and no one uses it but them, while the rest of the ships any rookie pilot or non-ace can jump into whatever fighter is available. Probably not entirely accurate, since pilots start at a higher rank than regular soldiers do and have the perks that go with that rank, but at least there's a clearer delineating point.The ace pilot is going to out rank the mechanic, and will get whatever plates welded on he wants, that are not too off the original specs. It's probably a coincidence that the hull card has two people on it and one of them is welding.
Im going to be a 'lore nerd' here but with imperial pilots they are deliberately discouraged from using the same craft, they are trained to see themselves as a cog in the machine and each ship is as good as any other... they get the first one they get to in the hangar.
Rebel pilots get attachements for ships and droids, its discouraed actively in imperial service.
P-51 with Engine Upgrade
I really don't see any problem with using Mods, either. Field modifications are fairly common during wartime. There was a Flight Journal article recently about a group of Marine pilots that strapped bazookas to one of their L-5s on Iwo Jima. I believe Albert Ball had an extra gun mounted to his fighter during World War I. A lot of aircraft weren't designed for ground attack, but had 5" rockets mounted to the undersides of the wings for that purpose (P-51, P-47, F6F, F4U). While I can appreciate the added difficulty of field modifying a more modern aircraft, it's certainly not impossible.
BTW, someone couldn't remember who made the F-22; It's Lockheed-Martin.
Alpha 1 and 2. I know you have only 20 flight hours but we need sector AJ84 reconned ASAP.
"But Sir, that's 3 weeks away at top sublight speed"
"Your ships will be outfitted with hyperdrives, we have to strip down some reactor plating so the ships will need full refurbishment, but that's less critical than the mission. "
"Due to the high amount of debris you are likely to encounter, we've also had shield generators installed. They won't do much in a major battle, but will keep your ship from being holed."
"aye sir".
And thus, we have 2 rookie ties with shield gens away from carrier support.
Im going to be a 'lore nerd' here but with imperial pilots they are deliberately discouraged from using the same craft, they are trained to see themselves as a cog in the machine and each ship is as good as any other... they get the first one they get to in the hangar.
Rebel pilots get attachements for ships and droids, its discouraed actively in imperial service.
TIE production was extremely modular and automated, as the Sienar foundries churned out countless starfighters to fuel the insatiable Imperial war machine. Variant models of the basic TIE include the TIE/rc (a model with advanced sensors and communication gear for reconnaissance missions), the TIE/fc (equipped with accurate fire control and target designation for long-range naval bombardments), the TIE/gt (with an enlarged hull to delivery heavy ordnance).
In the new Republic times, Lando Calrissian used TIE fighters whose shields were provided by a nearby station, giving them nearly capital ship class shields, to race through asteroid fields in the sport of "belt running".
It amounts to the same thing,
special missions for experienced pilots,
modifications for special missions,
means modifications for experienced pilots.
Alpha 1 and 2. I know you have only 20 flight hours but we need sector AJ84 reconned ASAP.
"But Sir, that's 3 weeks away at top sublight speed"
"Your ships will be outfitted with hyperdrives, we have to strip down some reactor plating so the ships will need full refurbishment, but that's less critical than the mission. "
"Due to the high amount of debris you are likely to encounter, we've also had shield generators installed. They won't do much in a major battle, but will keep your ship from being holed."
"aye sir".
And thus, we have 2 rookie ties with shield gens away from carrier support.
Im going to be a 'lore nerd' here but with imperial pilots they are deliberately discouraged from using the same craft, they are trained to see themselves as a cog in the machine and each ship is as good as any other... they get the first one they get to in the hangar.
Rebel pilots get attachements for ships and droids, its discouraed actively in imperial service.
TIE production was extremely modular and automated, as the Sienar foundries churned out countless starfighters to fuel the insatiable Imperial war machine. Variant models of the basic TIE include the TIE/rc (a model with advanced sensors and communication gear for reconnaissance missions), the TIE/fc (equipped with accurate fire control and target designation for long-range naval bombardments), the TIE/gt (with an enlarged hull to delivery heavy ordnance).
In the new Republic times, Lando Calrissian used TIE fighters whose shields were provided by a nearby station, giving them nearly capital ship class shields, to race through asteroid fields in the sport of "belt running".
It amounts to the same thing,
special missions for experienced pilots,
modifications for special missions,
means modifications for experienced pilots.
Except that it doesn't, as I just justified completely green pilots.
Generally I would agree with you, don't get me wrong. But there is room for exception. There is ALWAYS room for exception.
Alpha 1 and 2. I know you have only 20 flight hours but we need sector AJ84 reconned ASAP.
"But Sir, that's 3 weeks away at top sublight speed"
"Your ships will be outfitted with hyperdrives, we have to strip down some reactor plating so the ships will need full refurbishment, but that's less critical than the mission. "
"Due to the high amount of debris you are likely to encounter, we've also had shield generators installed. They won't do much in a major battle, but will keep your ship from being holed."
"aye sir".
And thus, we have 2 rookie ties with shield gens away from carrier support.
Im going to be a 'lore nerd' here but with imperial pilots they are deliberately discouraged from using the same craft, they are trained to see themselves as a cog in the machine and each ship is as good as any other... they get the first one they get to in the hangar.
Rebel pilots get attachements for ships and droids, its discouraed actively in imperial service.
TIE production was extremely modular and automated, as the Sienar foundries churned out countless starfighters to fuel the insatiable Imperial war machine. Variant models of the basic TIE include the TIE/rc (a model with advanced sensors and communication gear for reconnaissance missions), the TIE/fc (equipped with accurate fire control and target designation for long-range naval bombardments), the TIE/gt (with an enlarged hull to delivery heavy ordnance).
In the new Republic times, Lando Calrissian used TIE fighters whose shields were provided by a nearby station, giving them nearly capital ship class shields, to race through asteroid fields in the sport of "belt running".
It amounts to the same thing,
special missions for experienced pilots,
modifications for special missions,
means modifications for experienced pilots.
Except that it doesn't, as I just justified completely green pilots.
Generally I would agree with you, don't get me wrong. But there is room for exception. There is ALWAYS room for exception.
Once you dig a little bit into the EU, there is a ton of rationale for ship modifications, and not only for unique, special snowflake-type pilots. I distinctly remember modified TIEs in the TIE Fighter computer game, including interceptors with shields and other systems. Everybody's favorite blue-skinned red-eyed grand admiral also apparently had his fighters equipped with shields, in order to slow attrition, and it is suggested that later Imperials largely followed his example.
Unless you are an OT purist of the highest order, there's no good reason to do anything rash like banning a whole category of upgrades.
Alpha 1 and 2. I know you have only 20 flight hours but we need sector AJ84 reconned ASAP.
"But Sir, that's 3 weeks away at top sublight speed"
"Your ships will be outfitted with hyperdrives, we have to strip down some reactor plating so the ships will need full refurbishment, but that's less critical than the mission. "
"Due to the high amount of debris you are likely to encounter, we've also had shield generators installed. They won't do much in a major battle, but will keep your ship from being holed."
"aye sir".
And thus, we have 2 rookie ties with shield gens away from carrier support.
Im going to be a 'lore nerd' here but with imperial pilots they are deliberately discouraged from using the same craft, they are trained to see themselves as a cog in the machine and each ship is as good as any other... they get the first one they get to in the hangar.
Rebel pilots get attachements for ships and droids, its discouraed actively in imperial service.
TIE production was extremely modular and automated, as the Sienar foundries churned out countless starfighters to fuel the insatiable Imperial war machine. Variant models of the basic TIE include the TIE/rc (a model with advanced sensors and communication gear for reconnaissance missions), the TIE/fc (equipped with accurate fire control and target designation for long-range naval bombardments), the TIE/gt (with an enlarged hull to delivery heavy ordnance).
In the new Republic times, Lando Calrissian used TIE fighters whose shields were provided by a nearby station, giving them nearly capital ship class shields, to race through asteroid fields in the sport of "belt running".
It amounts to the same thing,
special missions for experienced pilots,
modifications for special missions,
means modifications for experienced pilots.
Except that it doesn't, as I just justified completely green pilots.
Generally I would agree with you, don't get me wrong. But there is room for exception. There is ALWAYS room for exception.
Once you dig a little bit into the EU, there is a ton of rationale for ship modifications, and not only for unique, special snowflake-type pilots. I distinctly remember modified TIEs in the TIE Fighter computer game, including interceptors with shields and other systems. Everybody's favorite blue-skinned red-eyed grand admiral also apparently had his fighters equipped with shields, in order to slow attrition, and it is suggested that later Imperials largely followed his example.
Unless you are an OT purist of the highest order, there's no good reason to do anything rash like banning a whole category of upgrades.
Even if you are, good luck finding conclusive proof that TIE's do or do not have shields...