TST said:
TST said:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=317
This the one you are looking for?
TST said:
Of course there are vurnabilities of this strategy - I don't claim this is 100% success way of playing. But as I mentioned previously - it's hard to play for Cylons if human players use Executive Order and Committy cards. I think that the only strategy in that situation is reveal as soon as possible. But I'm noobie:)
Couple of things:
(1) You're assuming that the only thing Cylon players can do is sabotage skill checks. It isn't. Not by a long shot.
(2) Investigative Committee cards are the largest value among the yellow skill cards. Every time you play one, you're burning 3-5 points. If they play one every single time, then in a 6-player game where you might average 4 skill checks per cycle, they're burning something like 16 skill points. That's a huge loss of tactical strength that's being inflicted with without the Cylon doing anything except sitting there.
In the last game we played, the Cylons won the game without ever sabotaging a single skill check before revealing. (One revealed after the Sleeper phase; the other revealed only on the last turn of the game.) One of them had been the Admiral and was pretty much able to completely screw us while doing nothing adverse except occasionally holding back on a few key skill checks (a largely undetectable treason) and selecting sub-optimal destinations.
So if the humans are insisting on Investigative Committees... let 'em. Heck even play them yourself (it burns high-value yellow cards that nobody can accuse you of not contributing to the check, plus it's a great way to throw off suspicion). Use your title against them. Don't have a title? Play some Scout cards and bury any easy crises you come across (while grimacing at the ugly fate you're "saving" them from). (Don't leave nasty crises on top unless you want to give yourself away. But just by burying the easy stuff, you're tilting the odds.)
And Executive Orders? That's great. Every time they hit you with an XO, that's two opportunities to do something sub-optimal or use a Scout card to turn the crisis deck odds against them.
If anything, sabotaging skill checks is more often about throwing suspicion falsely onto somebody else than the other way around.
TST said:
Of course there are vurnabilities of this strategy - I don't claim this is 100% success way of playing. But as I mentioned previously - it's hard to play for Cylons if human players use Executive Order and Committy cards. I think that the only strategy in that situation is reveal as soon as possible. But I'm noobie:)
Im not suggesting you were saying it was 100% - Im simply pointing out that In my experience extremely focus strategies like those that you were suggesting are all too often not worth the cost - even if they can produce a powerful effect in one area. The primary problem is that they all fail totally if anyone involved is a Cylon (that players turn, everyone wants an exec order, they lie and say they don't have one suddenly the strategy starts to weaken and the group has invested heavily). I have seen groups do exactly what you suggest. If Im a Cylon, I love seeing the humans over focus on one area. I can interfere with it in all sorts of ways even if Im not the focus of it - if I am they are hosed.
It also risks ignoring what else is going on on the table - who is going anything to organise the defence - move civie ships around, pilot - all these people are out of place if you focus on the ICs and Exec Orders. Again, Cylon playtime.
Play of Investigative Committees at the right time are vital - and dropping one out can get a vital skill check through when needed - but not if you are routinely doing it and running out of cards to support the skill checks.
In my experience winning becomes too easy as soon as the humans wise up and stop being so short sighted.
As was already mentioned, using a notepad shouldn't be a big issue. Sabotage counting and keeping a tally, mental or otherwise, of who isn't pulling their weight is part of the game. My only suggestion is to go for 5 player games where possible, gaming the sympathiser is too easy for me in the past.
Maleficus_Sadi said:
TST said:
TST said:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=317
This the one you are looking for?
Yes, it is. Thank you very much.
Kama said:
In my experience winning becomes too easy as soon as the humans wise up and stop being so short sighted.
As was already mentioned, using a notepad shouldn't be a big issue. Sabotage counting and keeping a tally, mental or otherwise, of who isn't pulling their weight is part of the game. My only suggestion is to go for 5 player games where possible, gaming the sympathiser is too easy for me in the past.
I've played few games for now but I agree with above "hints". It is hard to win with human players when they keep follow 9 above after-few-game insights.
I do not agree with using notepad - I wouldn't try it. For me this is a game, fun and not resolving mechanics of game. I am able to take all notepad and count probability of cards, find statistics etc.... but what for?
TST said:
Kama said:
In my experience winning becomes too easy as soon as the humans wise up and stop being so short sighted.
As was already mentioned, using a notepad shouldn't be a big issue. Sabotage counting and keeping a tally, mental or otherwise, of who isn't pulling their weight is part of the game. My only suggestion is to go for 5 player games where possible, gaming the sympathiser is too easy for me in the past.
I've played few games for now but I agree with above "hints". It is hard to win with human players when they keep follow 9 above after-few-game insights.
I do not agree with using notepad - I wouldn't try it. For me this is a game, fun and not resolving mechanics of game. I am able to take all notepad and count probability of cards, find statistics etc.... but what for?
I dont agree about the note pad either.
This is war, and things get muddled in war. Sure keeping track of any one of those things is simple, add in the other things and crisis' that are going off, and trying to figure out who the cylon is and moving those civvies away from the raiders and oh crap they started an election while we are in the middle of a battle and.... Your going to lose track, and thats the point.
The entire game for the Cylons is sowing confusion and discord. Its hard to do that when everyone is taking their Cornell notes and has their calculators out. Personally I would just stand up and walk out of a game where people were using note pads, whats the point? Wheres the fun in that? And it also takes a game that is tilted against the cylons already and tilts it even further against them.
As for your points, I'll counter point from the cylon point of view.
If the basestar is ignored I will personally or have the other cylons draw crisis cards looking for Basestar activations, either launches or shooting. While keep another on the fleet activation, pushing Heavy Raiders through the track or gunning down Civvies. Eventually the humans will learn to kill the spawn points. Or die.
Investigative Committees used to do this, now that they can not reveal Destiny anymore they dont. The humans will always hedge against Destiny, and that will at times waste cards, plus any Cylon will use these cards to their advantage, putting in a little bit and showing they are trust worthy, gaining trust to be used against humans.
Using resources to save cards can work to a point, I have no arguement there, I have some friends that go way too far with this and the cylons always use it against them, same goes for your next point.
Id like to see how you easily work around Laura losing skill cards everytime she activates a spot, or how its easy to work around Zareck's, especially when someone else has taken a disliking to him, or how you easily work around Lee's random discard ability, I especially want to know how you work around Starbucks drawback of being amazingly easy to brig, and even EASIER when Tigh is in the game. The only draw back I can think of that is super easy to work around is Adama's, and thats just because you can have someone else activate the Admirals Quarters. They are easy to work around in a vacuum, but the Cylons should be using all of these to their advantage.
Using your once per game to its best effect is common sense, but is also a double ended sword, most once per games, really all of them can be used to GREAT effect in screwing the humans as a cylon. I make it a point if I am XO'd to make sure using my once per game couldnt hurt them before flipping.
Cylons that are sabotaging checks with cards that can be traced to them deserve to be brigged. Really sabotaging checks is the last thing you as a cylon want to do, put in little, or dont put in, sure, but I cant debate that humans should be looking for it.
That is perfectly true, just hope you dont burn through your Raptors doing it.
Lemmiwinks said:
Huh? When did they change that rule...its not in the FAQ
Pegasus actually comes with new Investigatives, which specifically say to not reveal the destiny cards.
Caught my group off guard, too, and we're still trying to adjust lol
The Pegasus expansion replaces the existing Investigative Committee cards with a new version of the card that no longer reveals destiny's contribution. Which really drops (read: fixes) the effectiveness of it. Still useful though, particularly for the few non-yellow skill checks and for revealing who's on who's side in elections, brigs, airlocks.
Thanks for the insight Lemmiwinks, I do feel that's the crux of it: Cylons are trying to lay down confusion and rattle the human's trust.
My usual strategy to counter this as a human player is to keep pointing it out ! Why are you holding an election or trying to brig the admiral? You should do something useful like draw more cards or scout the crisis card. Why do you want to fire at the basestar? Raiders are the actual threat to our resources. Likewise even if investigative committee now might cause you to over compensate for destiny, it still forces the cylon player's hand - the cylon can either help a token amount, look suspicious by not contributing or outright sabotage.
Trust is key, do not be afraid to executive order other players when they are standing somewhere useful. Do not think of brigging someone without good reason, otherwise you risk wasting cards, actions and importantly crisis time. When the players understand that Cylons revealing themselves is really not a big issue most of the time the game becomes much easier. It's nice to avoid if you can spot it, but otherwise take the hit, more on and win.
Rough said:
Pegasus actually comes with new Investigatives, which specifically say to not reveal the destiny cards.
Caught my group off guard, too, and we're still trying to adjust lol
Ah OK, so its not that ICs have been ruled so they don't reveal destiny in BSG any more, its that they changed it for Pegasus. That would make a difference.
myrm said:
Rough said:
Pegasus actually comes with new Investigatives, which specifically say to not reveal the destiny cards.
Caught my group off guard, too, and we're still trying to adjust lol
Ah OK, so its not that ICs have been ruled so they don't reveal destiny in BSG any more, its that they changed it for Pegasus. That would make a difference.
Its not a BSG party unless Pegasus is invited. 
As an unflipped cylon player I just love doing things to get someone other than me brigged. It forces so many cards to be wasted. I usually pick the a person who gets a color I dont get even better if they are the only person that gets that color, and I use Consolidate Power and the Press Room and Research Labs to get colors outside my skill set. Not alot, just once and a while, after a turn or two people forget (if they dont have note pads, what a terrible idea) and then you can start making it look like somone else is a traitor. Do it enough and they get brigged. That blows cards, then they (typically) as a human go screw you! and try to get out, forcing MORE cards to be blown.
Then you pick a new target and repeat. All the while Crisis Cards are being failed and if you can get a second player in the brig you should flip that turn really. That means if you can get a super Crisis off they will only have, in the biggest game possible 3 people to put in on the card (for all intents and purposes) With one of those three the other possible Cylon.
This goes back to the OP, get rid of the darned notepads. With those what I just said (which is a GREAT way to win as the Cylons) is impossible. Because everyone would know I had drawn all those cards and not forgotten.
Lemmiwinks said:
Its not a BSG party unless Pegasus is invited.
As an unflipped cylon player I just love doing things to get someone other than me brigged. It forces so many cards to be wasted. I usually pick the a person who gets a color I dont get even better if they are the only person that gets that color, and I use Consolidate Power and the Press Room and Research Labs to get colors outside my skill set. Not alot, just once and a while, after a turn or two people forget (if they dont have note pads, what a terrible idea) and then you can start making it look like somone else is a traitor. Do it enough and they get brigged. That blows cards, then they (typically) as a human go screw you! and try to get out, forcing MORE cards to be blown.
Amen to that.
In my groups last game, I (as Leoben) drew a red card off of the destiny deck on turn one.
Few turns later, a new destiny deck is needed - A red card comes out.. I give it a couple more turns, stop using Leobens ability, and just by sheer luck when I placed that red card back in, the other pops up as well.
I give it the ol' "Oooh I think I know who my cylon buddy is!"
The two pilots just point at each other, speechless.
Two turns later, both had been executed and revealed as 'not a cylon' 
Pegasus really did change how my group plays the game, though. We went from humans winning 90% of the time to humans not being able to make it to NC because our cylons are just brutal.
I've played quite a few games of BSG now and I've ended up being a Cylon in most of them (so much so that the rest of my group usualy throw me in the brig the first oppertunity they get). This has given me quite a lot of 'Cylon' experience and from this I've come up with a decent strategy that can really help with balancing the game out...
1. Understand that the Cylons are the underdogs (especialy without the Pegasus expansion). Most players end up as human for the first phase of the game and their first reaction is to play as a human rather than as a human that could potentialy turn into a Cylon. I call this 'playing the odds' as players realise that the likelyhood is that they will draw a second human card. This then leads them investing heavily in human success which can actualy scupper their chances of victory if they draw a Cylon card in the second half of the game.
2. Cement your position. When a cylon never sit back; by being active and decisive you shift suspicion away from yourself. Take one for the team from time to time as well. Back in one game, while playing as the Admiral, I took several 'bad' results of crisis cards (Admiral chooses) forcing me to discard cards rather than lose resources or damage team mates. This had a two fold effect by enhancing my status as a human doing what it takes to win while bleeding my hand of cards to play into skill checks that the humans needed to pass. By the end of the game people were genuinly shocked to find out that I was a Cylon all along.
3. Play along. After a few games people will pick up on what characters do best. I got caught out as a Cylon in one game for not playing any Investigative committes while playing as Roslin (the one thing that my group finds she does well). Bad jumps also quickly raise suspicion but can be turned to your advantage if it throws doubt on a human player. Always try to limit the impact you have on the game while also keeping suspicion away by using the characters positive tricks.
4. Discuss. Always take part in debate but try to avoid accusations. When given choice on crisis cards always discuss the options with the group and try to reach a concensus. A bit of guile is always useful here to talk people around to your way of thinking (which should always be the wrong thing to do) . If people dig their heels in then don't argue the case but immediatly go with what they say. If the outcome is going to obviously be bad then don't sugest it but have a think before going for one over another. Players normaly don't like losing resources so you can use this to encourage them into a bad skill check situation.
5. Stay or go? If you end up as the admiral or the President then hang onto power for as long as possible. Control of certain crisis cards, access to the Quorum, nukes etc shouldn't be given up lightly so remain as a 'human' until as late in the game as possible. Suspicion always falls on these characters first so you will have to work extra hard in order to deflect suspicion (see discuss, play along and cement position). If you aren't in a position of power (and can't easily take power by throwing suspicion on the people in power) then it might be best to declare yourself as a Cylon as soon as the sleeper phase ends. Always be on the lookout for advantagious situations. One game I came within a whisker of winning on my second turn with Galctica badly damaged I had a great chance of finnishing her off due to the effect that my reveal had (damage Galactica) but I drew badly and the remaining crew managed to hold on unitl a couple of location were repaired.
Despite all these tricks I still think the game is too easy for humans to win. With the introduction of the Pegasus expansion I've noted that the Cylons do seem to be a boost here and there. Out of the 10 plus games we've played of the old edition the Cylons only managed a couple of victories. Overall I do think it's harder to play as the Cylons but it makes success all the more sweeter at the end of the day IMHO.
Kahadras
Kahadras said:
Despite all these tricks I still think the game is too easy for humans to win. With the introduction of the Pegasus expansion I've noted that the Cylons do seem to be a boost here and there.
Actually I have to disagree to some extent, they haven't received a boost in the games I have played and observed - caveat here, these were without New Caprica - what Pegasus seems to have done is make being a Cylon a lot more dynamic rather than the previously comparatively passive role, adding greatly to the interest and options for Cylons without significantly adding to the power of being a Cylon (which is a helluva good piece of design work in my book).
But then in my experience and gaming groups, Cylon/Human had got to a point where all players were experienced enough with both sides to make a balanced game of it.
I dunno. It's pretty easy to remember when players move to a location to draw cards not of their color. It's also not that hard to remember when those cards have been played (players who don't normally get blue cards using them to repair).
Really cuts down on cylons' ability to do anything without being revealed. I'd say you could hope for a beneficial destiny card to come up with your off color and claim credit, but how would you know it was a destiny card and not from someone else? If it's someone else's then they'll call your lie and the cylon syspects are immediately whittled down to 2. You'd have to be a REALLY good actor to pull out ahead in that situation.
According to the secrecy rules you're never allowed to claim which cards in the skill check are yours.