Hi all!

Having a lot of fun with Descent and getting ready to make small expansions/h&m pack investments before I buy Nerekhall for when we have finished the base campaign, love this game!

However I wanted to ask for some advice for my lovely missus who is playing as the heroes and having a hard time of it. Granted we are only two main act 1 quests into the story, however she lost Fat Goblin (Close) and then got absolutely trounced in Cardinals Plight (Koth didn't even get out of the Library) and is getting a little dejected by her Heroes non-heroic performances.

She is playing Avric as a Spiritspeaker- Healing Rain/Shared Pain/Stoneskin plus an additional Iron Shield.

Syndrael as a Knight- Advance/Defend/Oath of Honor plus an additional Crossbow.

Having never played the Heroes I thought I would ask here for some advice for her.

I'm also wondering whether to suggest we add a third hero to the party and give him exp points equal to those spent by a single hero from the current couple so the hero has "caught up to the power level of the campaign.

P.s could someone explain to me why three heroes are better than two? The monsters increase with them so what changes?

Thanks everyone- also I must say it is a joy to read posts on this forum, friendly, logical discussions (even when opinions differ!!!) it is a truer representation of most wargaming hobbyists than many of the "dedicated forums" I have perused of late.

Cheers,

Banonbrig

Well, to be blunt, a 2 hero game favors the overlord tremendously. It's very difficult to overcome that disadvantage as the heroes. A 3 hero game, by contrast, favors the heroes dramatically. A 4 hero game is the most balanced. Perhaps you can start from scratch with her controlling 4 heroes rather than just 2?

The reason for the balance differences is simple. In a 2 hero game, the heroes do not have sufficient actions to handle the amount of monsters on the field and still complete objectives on quests. Many quests feature special actions as well that are required: giving up one action to do that gives up one whole quarter of your actions in a 2 hero game. Monster group size matches well against 2 heroes as well.

In a 3 hero game, monster groups do not increase substantially enough in size to compensate for the additional hero. Large monsters in particular get the short end of the stick: you go from one monster to one slightly beefier monster, but gain no actions with them. In exchange, the heroes increase their strength 50%.

In a 4 hero game, the additional monsters is the best balanced with the amount of heroes.

Generally 3 heroes is easier because the monsters don't scale up as much in power as the heroes do. For example, most huge monster groups will go from 1 minion to 1 master in the transition. This doesn't measure up to the added synergy and effectiveness that a well chosen 3rd member brings to a hero group.

(Edit. Looks like Whitewing beat me to the punch on a few of these points, hehe )

In my opinion, 4 player games are the most balanced, as the OL gets a bigger bonus to his monster groups to make up for the added heroes (e.g. 1 master and 1 minion)

If your goal is for your wife to do better though, I'd recommend the 3rd hero. It will make things tougher for the OL in most cases.

Another possible obstacle is using the spirit speaker. It is already a hard to use class that is considered one of the weaker healer classes. However, it's weaknesses are compounded by the fact that its group healing is only affecting 2 targets.. The disciple is a far better choice in a 2 hero group, and his buffs and ability to heal without using actions to both heroes with holy power may well give your wife an edge in encounters.

I also find personally that the knight is more of a "team player". For a 2 hero group id prefer the destructive power of the berserker. The OL is also much more likely to be forced to target the berserker, making counterattack and death rage much more viable than they tend to be in larger hero groups. Syndrael works well as a berserker despite her more common knight pairing, imo. She is great all around though, and 2 hero groups make her heroic feat shine even brighter.

For a 3rd hero Id recommend a scout like the Wildlander, assuming base set only. Jaina's Wildlander in particular has mobility that is hugely useful in many encounters in shadow rune.

Generally 3 heroes is easier because the monsters don't scale up as much in power as the heroes do. For example, most huge monster groups will go from 1 minion to 1 master in the transition. This doesn't measure up to the added synergy and effectiveness that a well chosen 3rd member brings to a hero group.

(Edit. Looks like Whitewing beat me to the punch on a few of these points, hehe )

In my opinion, 4 player games are the most balanced, as the OL gets a bigger bonus to his monster groups to make up for the added heroes (e.g. 1 master and 1 minion)

If your goal is for your wife to do better though, I'd recommend the 3rd hero. It will make things tougher for the OL in most cases.

Another possible obstacle is using the spirit speaker. It is already a hard to use class that is considered one of the weaker healer classes. However, it's weaknesses are compounded by the fact that its group healing is only affecting 2 targets.. The disciple is a far better choice in a 2 hero group, and his buffs and ability to heal without using actions to both heroes with holy power may well give your wife an edge in encounters.

I also find personally that the knight is more of a "team player". For a 2 hero group id prefer the destructive power of the berserker. The OL is also much more likely to be forced to target the berserker, making counterattack and death rage much more viable than they tend to be in larger hero groups. Syndrael works well as a berserker despite her more common knight pairing, imo. She is great all around though, and 2 hero groups make her heroic feat shine even brighter.

For a 3rd hero Id recommend a scout like the Wildlander, assuming base set only. Jaina's Wildlander in particular has mobility that is hugely useful in many encounters in shadow rune.

I disagree on the Knight, it's a far stronger class than the Berserker even in a two hero game. Advance is such an absurdly strong ability, and the improved mobility can help compensate for a lower amount of actions.

Cheers

Well, to be blunt, a 2 hero game favors the overlord tremendously. It's very difficult to overcome that disadvantage as the heroes. A 3 hero game, by contrast, favors the heroes dramatically. A 4 hero game is the most balanced. Perhaps you can start from scratch with her controlling 4 heroes rather than just 2?

The reason for the balance differences is simple. In a 2 hero game, the heroes do not have sufficient actions to handle the amount of monsters on the field and still complete objectives on quests. Many quests feature special actions as well that are required: giving up one action to do that gives up one whole quarter of your actions in a 2 hero game. Monster group size matches well against 2 heroes as well.

In a 3 hero game, monster groups do not increase substantially enough in size to compensate for the additional hero. Large monsters in particular get the short end of the stick: you go from one monster to one slightly beefier monster, but gain no actions with them. In exchange, the heroes increase their strength 50%.

In a 4 hero game, the additional monsters is the best balanced with the amount of heroes.

Thanks for clearing that up it makes perfect sense- I have read many posters make the "three heroes are hard for the Overlord" and noticed this was accepted as a given, but I've never known why before.

I do think she has some great defence and recovery mixed with some decent attacks, but I wonder whether she would be better having an extra Damage output type or something a bit sneaky like Tomble to complete objectives while her Knight/Spirit speaker stick to holding off my monsters.

So I'm adding an extra Hero and hopefully we shall see a nice encouraging swing in the Heroes favor, plus an extra challenge for me while she learns the game/gaming in general a little bit more.

A quick additional inquiry ... if you where only going to buy two expansions would you buy Trollfens and Crown of Destiny (H&M pack) ? If not what would you prefer and why?

Cheers once more,

Bannonbrig

Agreed, especially since it's Syndrael with her heroic feat. The spiritspeaker, on the other hand is an action-heavy healer. Not ideal for a 2 hero game. (My first experience with D2E was a 2 hero Ashrian/Spiritspeaker, Jain/Thief. We got murdered.

EDIT:Go with a big box. More value for your money if you're only buying a few expansions.

Two and three players each have some problems. Two players tends to be balanced towards the overlord, three towards the heroes. Four players is generally considered to be the most evenly balanced. This is for a bunch of reasons, but mostly because of the fact that monster group sizes don't scale that well. It's easiest to tell with large monsters; two players are expected to deal with one minion. When facing three players, on the other hand, the overlord only gets a minor upgrade - a master instead of a minion. Masters are better, no two ways about it, but the heroes get two extra actions a turn - the overlord likely gets a few extra hit points and maybe a better surge ability. Going up to 4 players, the OL gets an extra minion, which brings things back into balance.

There are a lot of other balance things like this. In general, I'd suggest that you move all the way up to four players for the full experience and the most fun.

Big boxes are better if you're only going to get 2 expansions. Shadow of Nerekhall and Labyrinth of Ruin are the most bang for your buck.

As for small boxes, Trollfens is the best, with Manor of Ravens a close second. Lair of the Wyrm is mediocre, even though I adore High Mage Quellen.

The monster/hero packs I would skip until you've gotten some of the other expansions. Also, consider getting a single plot deck.

I'm getting the big box Nerekhall for certain, but that will come around as a Birthday gift at the end of January. So in the meantime I was thinking Trollfens to add in some extra quests, map tiles and cards etc as well as Crown of Destiny mainly because I like the Dwarf characters and CoD comes with one! Plus the extra monsters and 4 heroes opposed to two heroes in the small expansions makes up for the lack of extras (tiles/cards) that come with Manor of Ravens for example. So any thoughts on that? One small exp plus one H&M pack to keep me going? Which do you like etc?

I think for now, given how frustrated she was after Cardinals Plight, I'll try with three Heroes. I am more accustomed to the game and gaming in general so I think it will aid her to have a slight advantage and also help me feel less like I am punishing her and more like I am just playing competitively.

Any ideas for a good character to add in with the aforementioned Avric and Sindrael?

Thanks,

Banonbrig

Big boxes are better if you're only going to get 2 expansions. Shadow of Nerekhall and Labyrinth of Ruin are the most bang for your buck.

As for small boxes, Trollfens is the best, with Manor of Ravens a close second. Lair of the Wyrm is mediocre, even though I adore High Mage Quellen.

The monster/hero packs I would skip until you've gotten some of the other expansions. Also, consider getting a single plot deck.

Sorry Whitewing I didn't see this post while I was typing mine! Thanks for the advice, Trollfens is a good option it seems, so I will get that one next week and hold off on the Monster/Hero packs for a little while. The collector in me just wants more Heroes and Monsters but the reality is that most of the time any extra Heroes will just sit in the box anyway.

Any ideas for a good character to add in with the aforementioned Avric and Sindrael?

Thanks,

Banonbrig

Big boxes are better if you're only going to get 2 expansions. Shadow of Nerekhall and Labyrinth of Ruin are the most bang for your buck.

As for small boxes, Trollfens is the best, with Manor of Ravens a close second. Lair of the Wyrm is mediocre, even though I adore High Mage Quellen.

The monster/hero packs I would skip until you've gotten some of the other expansions. Also, consider getting a single plot deck.

Sorry Whitewing I didn't see this post while I was typing mine! Thanks for the advice, Trollfens is a good option it seems, so I will get that one next week and hold off on the Monster/Hero packs for a little while. The collector in me just wants more Heroes and Monsters but the reality is that most of the time any extra Heroes will just sit in the box anyway.

Any ideas for a good character to add in with the aforementioned Avric and Sindrael?

Thanks,

Banonbrig

It's not just that though, the boxes come with extra classes in addition to extra heroes, allowing you to play all the heroes you have in different ways. They also come with additional monsters. Trollfens has Harpies and Plague Worms, both good monsters. It also adds new overlord cards, more treasure cards, and the secret rooms and additional travel cards (plus rumor cards).

The hero and monster packs should generally come last after you've got the rest of it.

You'll want to add a scout or mage, I'd recommend the Runemaster personally. Leoric or Widow Tarha can both work well, but I prefer Widow Tarha because of her re-roll ability, especially on your exploding rune attacks =p.

I will certainly suggest she looks closely at the Runemaster then thanks Whitewing!

A very interesting thought on the classes aspect of things. So I shall stick with Trollfens and perhaps, if the keeper of the wallet permits me, I may invest in Manor of Ravens (the Bounty Hunter/crossbow fellow has caught my eye over the heroes in LoW).

It says something when Discussing a game is almost as interesting and exciting as playing it- thanks to everyone for there input and help.

I can't wait for "The Masquerade Ball" this Saturday!

Banonbrig

I should also mention, part of the reason you stomped her in A Cardinal's Plight is that the quest is overlord favored anyway. Also, make sure you check out the game's errata, as there are some fixes to some of the quests. Cardinal's Plight got a fix in it as well.

Maybe there is a way you can nerf your overlord in a way that doesn't change any of the rules. How are you choosing monsters for open groups? Maybe devise a random way of selecting open groups (that match quest requirements of course) to make it less likely you get your first and more powerful pick of monsters. if you are like me when you play overlord you have a handful of monsters you feel are top tier and rarely deviate from.

I ran into the inverse situation with my gamer group. We had three heroes and they always played the same heroes and they always trounced me really hard. I instituted a rule that they be rolling die to select their archetypes, heroes,and classes. At first they groaned but after the first quest they liked their heroes and classes and admitted it was more challenging playing outside of their comfort zone. Not sure if this helps for your situation.

I actually went for Trollfens and a hero pack just like you've suggested and I do think it was a good idea. Yes you lose out on extra classes but SO MANY guides for the overlord assume you've got the conversion packs and having the hero/monster packs with the flexibility of the new monsters sort of makes up for that.