When i saw the VSD at GenCon, i estimated it to be approx 5"-5.5". I never got it in my hand though, so take it as an approximate.

An Imperial class would probably be about 8" long based on their sliding scale.

And we can assume like X-wing that the "small" ships will have one base, and the "large" ships (MC80s/ISDs)will have a bigger base if needed for stability/game balance if/when they are released

And we can assume like X-wing that the "small" ships will have one base, and the "large" ships (MC80s/ISDs)will have a bigger base if needed for stability/game balance if/when they are released

If you look at the bases we have already seen, you will find that they are already different sizes, with larger ships having larger bases. So an increase in base size for larger ships is already in the game and does not require x-wing's "large ship" base equivalents, or different rules.

There is some overlap between this thread and the SSD / Scale thread. I have chosen to put this here as it goes to whether a SSD would be a "possible" mini. Let me know what I got right, and where I wander off the path.

Why do this, anyway?

While I want an SSD in this game, I want it to avoid the bizarre scale pitfalls of the Starship Battles SSD. Basically, I think all the sliding scale stuff for Armada looks good so far. An Armada SSD mini will need to look good next to its escorting fleet. To me, that would mean the Armada SSD mini will need to measure at least 3 to 5 times the length of an Armada ISD. To repeat: I really want to see an SSD mini in Armada. But I want a good SSD that is playable and doesn't threaten FFG's ability to make money on the game. So, If a mini either looks wrong or isn't playable, it either won't sell or won't be made (if they believe it won't sell).

Summary:

To look right, an SSD mini will need to be a minimum of 3 times the length of an ISD mini. Since the bridge towers will be noticeably "wrong" at 3 times, it would ideally be more like 5 times the length. That is a 40" SSD. While cool to look at, it simply won't be playable on the board. Unless they can work some magic with the LucasFilm designers, this leads me to suggest FFG not make the mini. As much as I want them to, I would prefer an SSD mini that looks "right" to one that looks scrawny.

Questions to Armada Fans:

What do you think is the minimum overall length SSD mini that will look right on the table top? (Please assume our estimate of 8" for the ISD mini is correct.) How much do you think fans will be willing to pay? Do your length and price numbers seem to line up?

Canon Can be Challenging:

To para-phrase what Mikael has pointed out elsewhere, relative size of VSD vs ISD will all come down to how "canon" is interpreted. That said, I love to think through this sort of question. And am curious what you all think, as well.

Rough Scale Analysis:

I am making the following assumption regarding canon ship lengths in meters: ISD ( 2X) > VSD ( 2X) > GSD. [ ISD 1600m, VSD 900m, & GSD 500m ]

Very roughly, the VSD length in meters is twice that of the GSD. Yet the VSD mini appears roughly 1 1/2 times the length of GSD mini. Because the ISD is very roughly twice the length of the GSD (in meters), I believe Extropia has the relative scale size of the ISD mini about right at 8". That is, 1 1/2 times the length of an ISD. If so, my gut says it will run about $60 or $75.

For now, I am going with the SSD being five times the size / length of an ISD. Based on my favorite SSD size argument : I am aware that there are a number of problems with this assumption... I get into that later.

If 1) the SSD is five times the size of an ISD, and 2) if the Armada ISD mini will be 8", and 3) the length only gets increased by half again per doubling of canon length in meters, Then the SSD mini would be about 18", or roughly 5" or 6" longer than the CR-90 from X-Wing...

How to handle doubling in length?

( 8" + 8"/2 ) = 12; ( 12" + 12"/2 ) = 18". Note that the GSD / ISD size relationship is 4 : 1, and the minis end up being 2:1. So a mini double the size of the ISD mini should be about 4 times the length in meters. (Provides a check sum for my initial estimate of SSD mini length.)

18" is an interesting number. That is roughly 5" to 6" longer than the largest model they have made -- to date -- the CR-90. So 18" sounds like a work-able mini length -- both in terms of manufacturing and playability. At 18", playability on a standard 3' X 3' mat is questionable. So we increase map size and no worries. We also know FFG makes very nice looking models in this size. It would also put the retail price in the $120 to $150 neighborhood. My bet is at the higher end -- because the model will need to have tons of surface detail.

Will it look right?

The only question remaining: Relative to an ISD, how much larger does an SSD need to be in order to look "right" on the table? 18" is only 2.25 times 8": This makes the speculative Armada SSD to ISD ration really similar to the messed up SB ratio . My gut is saying the Armada SSB mini will need to be around 3 times the length of the Armada ISD mini. This is the absolute, bare minimum. To get this, I compared the ISD and SSD minis from a Starship Battles. That SB-SSD mini was almost double the length of the SB-ISD mini. But the bridge towers just looked wrong. Tossing my thoughts on Sliding Scale and going with 3 times actual size would require a 24" mini. That is going to be cumbersome on the table-top.

Bridge Tower Comparison:

And here is where the next problem comes up: I compared the bridge towers of the Starship Battles ISD & SSD. My micrometer is at work , so I used the Mark I eyeball. That said, the SB - SSD mini is about 1.75 times the length of the SB - ISD mini. The SB - SSD mini's bridge tower is about 1/5 the width of the the SB - ISD mini's bridge tower. That implies that the proper relative size is really closer to 8 times. 8:1 length in meters suggests an SSD mini would be much longer. And that is just to make the towers look right. (i/e very roughly the same size)

Continuing the doubling progression from above: we get 27" at 6 times longer and 40.5" at 8 times longer... Way too big.

Conslusion:

Great... I would really like to see an Armada SSD. But NOT if it recreates the scaling issues from SB. I am fine with the sliding scale minis we have seen, so far. And am hoping the FFG design team have a surprise in store.

Excellent post, and I pretty much agree with it entirely.

The scale issue seems insurmountable to me, without making it look pretty silly. IF they can release one at 24" or so, great. But honestly that doesnt seem all that realistic, based on their previous maximum model sizes. And that, as you said, is really the bare minimum and would STILL look out of scale.

Add to that the inherent game balance problems of any "super unit". Generally speaking, any game with something like that in has 2 choices:

1) Make it accurate in its power level. based on "fluff"

2) Make it about 2-3 as powerful as a "normal" powerful ship already in the game.

Option 1 pleases purists, but makes the game become ludicrous. It entirely comes down to "can i kill that one ship or not". If not, you lose. If you can, you win.

Option 2 at least makes it usable in more games, but it then feels horribly weak compared to the way it should be. This is the option FFG took with the X-Wing CR-90 btw (as well as some other games, like Warhound Titans in 40k)....and it is weak as ****. So much so that there's no good reason to take one aside from the visual and fun factor. Admirable reasons of course, but you are instantly at a big disadvantage compared to just taking normal ships.

So for all this, i just can't see it happening. i dont even WANT it to happen unless it's at least 3 times an ISD length as it would just look stupid, and I also dont want it if it's just another nice looking but pointless ship like the CR-90. I'd really rather they just focus on the less silly ships if they cant do it fully justice.

My opinion anyway.

And we can assume like X-wing that the "small" ships will have one base, and the "large" ships (MC80s/ISDs)will have a bigger base if needed for stability/game balance if/when they are released

If you look at the bases we have already seen, you will find that they are already different sizes, with larger ships having larger bases. So an increase in base size for larger ships is already in the game and does not require x-wing's "large ship" base equivalents, or different rules.

The point was in response to the person saying that the ISD would be too large for the bases, while I was unaware that the current bases were different size, the overall point was that the ISD/MC80 would have appropriate sized bases

So I've been thinking... There's another thread in the forum discussing the fact that pitched battles as seen in Armada would actually be a rarity in the Star Wars universe depending on the time period, and maybe that by itself will solve this argument. Since the game seems to be objective driven I can't see where a SSD would be a great fit with gameplay, unless of course your sole objective was to kill it (I'd vote suicide run with A-wings myself). There may be players who figure out how to bring one into the game (although were kinda back to the play mat idea), but this is ALMOST as silly as asking for a playable Deathstar. Feel free to pull in the Lego model for your play space if you want a good sliding scale model though

Ok My Memory is a little funny, Been a few years since I seen ROTJ. But with the new Cannon and Legends bit Could Vaders SSD be the only one Built. I know in the books they mention 8??? I think it was 8 were built. But if that was all in the books than it can no longer exisit. Maybe Vaders was a personal gift from the Emperor, a One off prototype.

Potentially, it's possible of course. Anything is possible regarding old EU material at this time. There's nothing at all to suggest that though. In fact, the only "canon" line i can think of that may be relevant is in RotJ where they Han says "There's a lot of command ships" when they are discussing Vaders presence on the Executor.

So if anything, i'd say the canon implies that the Executor is NOT the only SSD, but there is no confirmation either way yet.

Given that the "There are a lot of Command ships." line refers to Executor's presence specifically I would definitely say it means there was more then one Executor class ship.

I'm going to have to go rewatch the movie now. Can anyone say for certain if any additional SSDs are seen in the film? Since that will certainly be the final say on whether or not they show up in the game

New Dawn -- one of the "new canon" novels -- also refers to multiple SSD's being built. Does that further our case?

BTW: the book is a pretty good read on its own.

I'll have to rewatch it to be sure (oh no!), but i'm fairly certain (like 99%) you only see the one actually in the movie.

New Dawn -- one of the "new canon" novels -- also refers to multiple SSD's being built. Does that further our case?

BTW: the book is a pretty good read on its own.

Yes it does! I thought it was Tarkin, but couldnt find the passage so i didnt mention it, but you are right.

Wait, so they threw all (most?) the existing EU stuff into Legends canon, and now they're writing new books that will be canon with the new movies?

uh, ok

Wait, so they threw all (most?) the existing EU stuff into Legends canon, and now they're writing new books that will be canon with the new movies?

uh, ok

At first, I was dis-appointed by this as well. If it means Chewbacca isn't dead, I think I am okay with it.

Makes me wonder what things will still hold out and what weird twists we'll get. I just hop the Star Wars universe doesn't start getting a Marvel treatment where anyone gets to make their own timeline. While I do see some good things coming out of it, we now have two timelines to compare, which makes "well this was better that way" debates possible.

Wait, so they threw all (most?) the existing EU stuff into Legends canon, and now they're writing new books that will be canon with the new movies?

uh, ok

At first, I was dis-appointed by this as well. If it means Chewbacca isn't dead, I think I am okay with it.

I was out of reading EU books by the time that one came out, and anyways, I refused to accept that book existed anyways

I'm not so much disappointed, as just confused, I was under the impression only the films would continue to be canon, but I guess those sweet sweet licensing fees are too much to resist

As I understand it, the Lucasfilm Story Group is going to be paying more attention to continuity by vetting the stories and elements depicted in it. Sure, they're not going to be bound by the old EU, but they'll try to make the new EU (nEU) better integrated and coherent. (We'll see if they succeed at that.)

Both the new books (A New Dawn and Tarkin) take place before the OT, but I haven't read them, so I can't say much more than that. A New Dawn is a set-up book for ST: Rebels, but a review says that it's fairly dark and not necessarily aimed at the same audience as the cartoon is.

ANYWAY, that's quite far off the original intent of this thread, so....

...where are we with that speculation. I'm going to put my guesses as follows:

Empire:

• Imperial Star Destroyer
• Raider -class corvette

Rebels:

• MC90 Star Cruiser
• DP20 Frigate

(I may be entirely wrong about that, but let's get the discussion back to the title.)

As I understand it, the Lucasfilm Story Group is going to be paying more attention to continuity by vetting the stories and elements depicted in it. Sure, they're not going to be bound by the old EU, but they'll try to make the new EU (nEU) better integrated and coherent. (We'll see if they succeed at that.)

Both the new books (A New Dawn and Tarkin) take place before the OT, but I haven't read them, so I can't say much more than that. A New Dawn is a set-up book for ST: Rebels, but a review says that it's fairly dark and not necessarily aimed at the same audience as the cartoon is.

ANYWAY, that's quite far off the original intent of this thread, so....

...where are we with that speculation. I'm going to put my guesses as follows:

Empire:

• Imperial Star Destroyer
• Raider -class corvette

Rebels:

• MC90 Star Cruiser
• DP20 Frigate

(I may be entirely wrong about that, but let's get the discussion back to the title.)

I can say that so far neither of the new books contradicts anything in the old EU. Granted, they are both set in the "Dark Times" which was barely touched, but all mentioned ships/people/places have not changed.

As to the ships, do you mean the MC80? The MC90 was waaaay later, and enormously powerful.

The MC80 line was the ones in Return of the Jedi etc.

As to the ships, do you mean the MC80? The MC90 was waaaay later, and enormously powerful.

The MC80 line was the ones in Return of the Jedi etc.

I probably meant the MC80. :-)

I can say that so far neither of the new books contradicts anything in the old EU. Granted, they are both set in the "Dark Times" which was barely touched, but all mentioned ships/people/places have not changed.

I think I might see about listening to them on audiobook from the library. I've stalled out on reading the Rogue Squadron books, and maybe a different format would be better for me.

As to the ships, do you mean the MC80? The MC90 was waaaay later, and enormously powerful.

The MC80 line was the ones in Return of the Jedi etc.

I probably meant the MC80. :-)

Speaking of the MC80 the question is will the Mon Remonda(MC80B) be included as a title card with the regular MC80 pack (sorta like we have VSDIs and VSDIIs) or will we see a separate MC80B expansion?

Personally my hunch is it will just be its own title card but in the interests of returning to the topic at hand, I figured I would throw that out there.

Good question. i think it should be a separate model tbh....it's a totally different hull, both in shape and capabilities. Tougher and more powerful, and much better arcs of fire.

Whether they go that route or not is the question.

For that matter, will they do both "winged" and "normal" MC80s? How about Home One types? Those were MUCH bigger (maybe...depends on source), but i imagine that really will be a title.

Rebels are strapped for capital ships so it would be smarter to take every deviation they can find -- an easy thing to do given the modular and unique designs of Mon Cal ships -- and make a new model for each one. A few title cards for each, even new names of FFG's creation, and suddenly you have 4-5 Rebel capital ships easy.

Home One, in a class all its own.

MC80s generic

Mon Remonda

Defiant

Independence (a ship that specialized in communications)

The Flurry

Home One was actually not unique...it was a genuine class, so they could indeed easily release that as a bigger cruiser. Defiant and Independence were in fact Home One-style ships:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MC80_Home_One_type_Star_Cruiser

There was also:

- The MC80 (both with and without wings)

- The MC80a

- The MC80B (which the Mon Remonda was the first of, but this didnt appear until a good couple of years after Endor).

I really dont know id the MC80-Liberty style, and the MC80a are different enough to warrant different releases though. They did have minor changes and slightly different capabilities, but not a huge amount. Those probably could just be done as variants, like the VSD-I and VSD-II classes.

The Flurry.....hmmm. I'm going to be controversial here and say it's a terrible warship, so I dont know. it was really justa converted freighter with 2 guns stuck on and its cargo hold converted to carry some fighters. It wasnt ever designed to actually fight stuff, it just carried fighters and then got the hell out of the way. I know it's a popular ship so people probably wont like hearing it, but it'd get absolutely flattened by even something like a Corvette without it's fighters!

It could have a place of course....very weak shields, hull and firepower but a decent (though not amazing....it only carried 3 squadrons) squadron rating as a cheap control ship?

I wouldnt want to be the poor sods flying the thing in a fight though!

You could make The Flurry into a ship that specialized exclusively in the Squadron Command and had a built in Extended Hanger. Done. Make it weak as heck, the Armada equivalent of the HWK-290 in X-wing, with a ranged support ability. It will handicap the Rebel fleet by giving it a ship that needs protection but also wants to exert influence.

Command 1

Squadron Command 4

Engineering 1

Done.