I'm a relatively new GM to this system who is struggling with the mechanical differences between items clearly meant to assist in certain skill checks.

Medicine checks without a Medpac increase the difficulty by one as stated on p219 of Core Rules. So far, so good.

Toolkits, however, have this effect on Mechanics checks according to p182:

Toolkits allow mechanics to perform most Mechanics checks to repair mechanical devices, and can also be used to "heal" droids.

So it sounds to me like a toolkit is required to perform certain kinds of tasks, but otherwise doesn't grant any bonus (except for any interpretation under the "Right Tools for the Job" sidebar on p171.

Then there's Slicer Gear. As far as I can tell from the description on p179, Slicer Gear provides no mechanical benefit at all, only getting whatever bonus is applied through "Right Tools for the Job."

I find these confusing and inconsistent which makes me assume I'm missing something. Is there any unifying principle behind these gear-assisted skill checks?

Thanks!

SP

A lot is left in this system for the GM to determine on the fly, depending on the situation. I think Medicine is specifically called out as increasing difficulty without a Medpac because of its effect on healing and the general well-being of the party. The others probably aren't as critical, though you could apply the same principle. As a general rule I would favour adding setback dice instead of increasing difficulty if the PC doesn't have the right tools, as it then allows the PCs talents to come into play.

You are correct. You basically require a Toolkit to perform mechanics checks, although you as the GM may waive this requirement if the situation dictates. Such as a player making a mechanics check to disable a mechanical gizmo(you don't need a hydro-spanner to rip out some important wires)

Likewise, Slicer gear is basically an enabling piece of equipment. Unless you have the ability to interface with a computer, you won't be slicing it. Thats because in order to hack something, it involves remotely accessing the system through your own interface device. Which means you need to hook it up. That requires some special gear. Again, you are free to waive this as it makes sense. "This computer system is easily set to the default. No need for a direct hookup with slicer gear"

Medical checks don't require a medpack. Anybody can rip some clothing up to make a bandage or make a crude splint from whatever is laying around. You don't need proper material, its just better when you have it.

I don't have the CRB in front of me but there is a small section on "Tools for the Job" and it talks about bonuses and requirements.

If you don't have the proper tools for the job, you add one setback die to the pool (except for the Medicine thing, as stated above). If you have the right tools you make the check as normal, and if they're of particularly high quality you might get a boost die or two.

You are correct. You basically require a Toolkit to perform mechanics checks, although you as the GM may waive this requirement if the situation dictates. Such as a player making a mechanics check to disable a mechanical gizmo(you don't need a hydro-spanner to rip out some important wires)

Likewise, Slicer gear is basically an enabling piece of equipment. Unless you have the ability to interface with a computer, you won't be slicing it. Thats because in order to hack something, it involves remotely accessing the system through your own interface device. Which means you need to hook it up. That requires some special gear. Again, you are free to waive this as it makes sense. "This computer system is easily set to the default. No need for a direct hookup with slicer gear"

Medical checks don't require a medpack. Anybody can rip some clothing up to make a bandage or make a crude splint from whatever is laying around. You don't need proper material, its just better when you have it.

This is a rather stringent interpretation. Essentially you are saying my Slicer could not attempt to do any type of slicing on a computer in front of him without dumping 500 credits into the slicer gear? Ouch.

You are correct. You basically require a Toolkit to perform mechanics checks, although you as the GM may waive this requirement if the situation dictates. Such as a player making a mechanics check to disable a mechanical gizmo(you don't need a hydro-spanner to rip out some important wires)

Likewise, Slicer gear is basically an enabling piece of equipment. Unless you have the ability to interface with a computer, you won't be slicing it. Thats because in order to hack something, it involves remotely accessing the system through your own interface device. Which means you need to hook it up. That requires some special gear. Again, you are free to waive this as it makes sense. "This computer system is easily set to the default. No need for a direct hookup with slicer gear"

Medical checks don't require a medpack. Anybody can rip some clothing up to make a bandage or make a crude splint from whatever is laying around. You don't need proper material, its just better when you have it.

This is a rather stringent interpretation. Essentially you are saying my Slicer could not attempt to do any type of slicing on a computer in front of him without dumping 500 credits into the slicer gear? Ouch.

I'm not playing it quite that strict, personally; I do require you to physically scomp into a system somehow (a datapad works). Slicer gear just let you do it better (a boost die).

You are correct. You basically require a Toolkit to perform mechanics checks, although you as the GM may waive this requirement if the situation dictates. Such as a player making a mechanics check to disable a mechanical gizmo(you don't need a hydro-spanner to rip out some important wires)

Likewise, Slicer gear is basically an enabling piece of equipment. Unless you have the ability to interface with a computer, you won't be slicing it. Thats because in order to hack something, it involves remotely accessing the system through your own interface device. Which means you need to hook it up. That requires some special gear. Again, you are free to waive this as it makes sense. "This computer system is easily set to the default. No need for a direct hookup with slicer gear"

Medical checks don't require a medpack. Anybody can rip some clothing up to make a bandage or make a crude splint from whatever is laying around. You don't need proper material, its just better when you have it.

This is a rather stringent interpretation. Essentially you are saying my Slicer could not attempt to do any type of slicing on a computer in front of him without dumping 500 credits into the slicer gear? Ouch.

If you have absolutely nothing, absolutely I would disallow it. If you have a datapad, maybe I'd allow it with setback dice.

The only way you're not getting penalized is if you have slicer gear.

Complaining about this is a bit like complaining you can't shoot someone without buying a blaster. Slicer gear is to a slicer what weapons are to a bounty hunter. Its not an optional piece of equipment as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, I'll let you attempt to slice something if you can justify it, but you're going to have to convince me you can actually interface with what you are trying to hack. I don't care how good of a slicer you are, if you can't talk with the device you are trying to slice you can't even attempt it.

You are correct. You basically require a Toolkit to perform mechanics checks, although you as the GM may waive this requirement if the situation dictates. Such as a player making a mechanics check to disable a mechanical gizmo(you don't need a hydro-spanner to rip out some important wires)

Likewise, Slicer gear is basically an enabling piece of equipment. Unless you have the ability to interface with a computer, you won't be slicing it. Thats because in order to hack something, it involves remotely accessing the system through your own interface device. Which means you need to hook it up. That requires some special gear. Again, you are free to waive this as it makes sense. "This computer system is easily set to the default. No need for a direct hookup with slicer gear"

Medical checks don't require a medpack. Anybody can rip some clothing up to make a bandage or make a crude splint from whatever is laying around. You don't need proper material, its just better when you have it.

This is a rather stringent interpretation. Essentially you are saying my Slicer could not attempt to do any type of slicing on a computer in front of him without dumping 500 credits into the slicer gear? Ouch.

If you have absolutely nothing, absolutely I would disallow it. If you have a datapad, maybe I'd allow it with setback dice.

The only way you're not getting penalized is if you have slicer gear.

Complaining about this is a bit like complaining you can't shoot someone without buying a blaster. Slicer gear is to a slicer what weapons are to a bounty hunter. Its not an optional piece of equipment as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, I'll let you attempt to slice something if you can justify it, but you're going to have to convince me you can actually interface with what you are trying to hack. I don't care how good of a slicer you are, if you can't talk with the device you are trying to slice you can't even attempt it.

Sure, I'll let you attempt to slice something if you can justify it, but you're going to have to convince me you can actually interface with what you are trying to hack. I don't care how good of a slicer you are, if you can't talk with the device you are trying to slice you can't even attempt it.

My only contention is that most computers, by their very nature, have interfaces built directly into them. Using your example, you are denying the ability to brawl because they don't have a weapon.

Not the same at all. Computers might have interfaces, but you have to have something to interface with. You might be able to use your fingers for a Mechanics check, but a Computer check means getting into the computer and getting it to do something it's not supposed to do. The only way to do that is to have a device that you control that can take over, or manipulate, the target.

So Computers requires some hardware of some kind. So far I just hand-wave it so long as the PC has at least a datapad...the datapad represents the interface the PC can control, along with whatever wires or wifi signal is needed to talk to the target computer. If they don't have a datapad or some other kind of slicing equipment, they are SOL and any manipulation becomes Mechanics (which might be a different difficulty, and certainly doesn't allow data transfer).

Sure, I'll let you attempt to slice something if you can justify it, but you're going to have to convince me you can actually interface with what you are trying to hack. I don't care how good of a slicer you are, if you can't talk with the device you are trying to slice you can't even attempt it.

My only contention is that most computers, by their very nature, have interfaces built directly into them. Using your example, you are denying the ability to brawl because they don't have a weapon.

Not the same at all. Computers might have interfaces, but you have to have something to interface with. You might be able to use your fingers for a Mechanics check, but a Computer check means getting into the computer and getting it to do something it's not supposed to do. The only way to do that is to have a device that you control that can take over, or manipulate, the target.

So Computers requires some hardware of some kind. So far I just hand-wave it so long as the PC has at least a datapad...the datapad represents the interface the PC can control, along with whatever wires or wifi signal is needed to talk to the target computer. If they don't have a datapad or some other kind of slicing equipment, they are SOL and any manipulation becomes Mechanics (which might be a different difficulty, and certainly doesn't allow data transfer).

Better make sure I grab my datapad when I go home so I can use my computer.

Obviously that already has an interface, therefore, the tools are available. But most "Computer" checks for slicing are going to be made against targets that you don't have a direct interface for.

Even with certain sets of equipment, a character might not have the right tools for the job.

For example, you need more than a toolkit to build a starfighter from scratch, you need a machine shop at least.

Better make sure I grab my datapad when I go home so I can use my computer.

As others have said, your computer has an interface. The mouse and keyboard.

Most of the computers in star wars, particularly those keeping doors locked or running specific pieces of equipment, do not have any equivalent. Or their input is limited to a simple keypad and it has only a limited display.

You need to have access to the main computer itself. Which means you need a full interface, not just a number pad. So you MUST use a data pad and/or slicer gear to actually hook up to the computer like you would a desktop.

Nearly all computers in star wars are basically a computer with no mouse, no keyboard, and either no display OR only a limited display of what the computer is doing(not access to the base functions of the computer)

Better make sure I grab my datapad when I go home so I can use my computer.

As others have said, your computer has an interface. The mouse and keyboard.

Most of the computers in star wars, particularly those keeping doors locked or running specific pieces of equipment, do not have any equivalent. Or their input is limited to a simple keypad and it has only a limited display.

You need to have access to the main computer itself. Which means you need a full interface, not just a number pad. So you MUST use a data pad and/or slicer gear to actually hook up to the computer like you would a desktop.

Nearly all computers in star wars are basically a computer with no mouse, no keyboard, and either no display OR only a limited display of what the computer is doing(not access to the base functions of the computer)

We will have to agree to disagree then. It might warrant 3 setback dice or something, but hand slicing should be possible as long as the target computer has an input and display already.

Also, I find it really amusing that we have threads all about creative things slicers can do and this one devolved to, "slicers open doors."

Thats the point. The thing you are trying to slice might have a USB port, but unless you have a USB connector and a laptop its going to be worth diddly squat.

And if the display is just a little keypad with numbers 0-9 on it again you're going to need an external plugin from your Slicer gear.

Thats the point. The thing you are trying to slice might have a USB port, but unless you have a USB connector and a laptop its going to be worth diddly squat.

And if the display is just a little keypad with numbers 0-9 on it again you're going to need an external plugin from your Slicer gear.

Regardless, its not implausible to have override commands programmed into those machines without the need of any external tools. Heck the pin pads and card swipers you use at the grocery store have a limited amount of things you can do on them with no external devices, and I'm not even trained on them.

Again though, if the majority of things your slicer is slicing are door locks, you need to broaden your scope a bit. More often than not, the slicer I play has a computer with an interface and full display in front of him.

You are arguing that slicing can NEVER happen without any type of tools.

Right. And a keyboard attached to a computer is a tool. Anything that can send commands to the target is a tool. You need to broaden your definition a bit.

Slicing is essentially hacking, and hacking requires programs. One doesn't acctually sit down at a computer terminal, tap a few keys on a key board and suddenly have access to all of the systems. It only works that way in the movies. (Yes I realize Star Wars was a movie, and this is a game which really makes all of these posts and forums irrelivent because as Player and GM you can decide to forego all of this nonsense and make decisions for yourself, madness I know). Systems have holes in programing that hackers use lines of code they write to take advantage of those holes. What better place to store those lines of code than a data pad. Not to mention all of the time and money a Slicer would have to invest to make sure he has multiple connectors and key card programmers and various other programing devices required to allow his data-pad access to all of the various systems he is able to Slice. (read anything controlled by a computer, thank goodness the Empire and all other planets use Microsoft based operating systems otherwise Slicing could be really difficult (this was a joke, deal with it Windows lovers)) If you are going to argue the point they shouldn't need equipment then you should probably be able to explain to your players why. For example, good luck fixing a 1936 Ford Truck without a wrench, or a 2014 Honda civic without some type of diagnostic interface and the proper interface program (or App for the Apple generation), because even if you have the right operating system you may not have the right interface program. (read driver, or again App for the Apple generation) These cost money as well, and you will get nowhere beyond maybe changing a few filters, hoses or belts.(mechanics check) Hope this helps you understand why the, "Right tool for the job" is so important even if the item provides no direct in-game bonus.

editted for grammatical mistakes

You are arguing that slicing can NEVER happen without any type of tools.

Right. And a keyboard attached to a computer is a tool. Anything that can send commands to the target is a tool. You need to broaden your definition a bit.

Slicer gear isn't meant to be a backpack of keyboards, monitors, etc. Its some hardware for things like door locks (or the specific lock breaker gear), some cables I'm sure, and things like programs and viruses on a portable drive to assist in the slicing. Saying no one can even attempt to slice anything without to gear is beyond restrictive.

Slicer gear is totally a collection of keyboard and monitor equivalents.

It will basically have the following.

A specialized datapad(which is basically a SW version of a laptop) loaded with a bunch of hacking software and stored generic malware programs, along with a large collection of different interface plugs. It will also have multiple operating systems to allow for different target operating systems.

Its also going to have a small arc welder, wire cutters, and soldering equipment in case you literally have no input and need to hard wire directly. IE: you need to rip off an access panel and slice some wires directly into the computer.

At a minimum a slicer would have to have a Datapad or some equivilent. It's like trying to pick a master lock with your fingers. (Hence the need for Lock picking tools to pick locks in fantasy RPGs) Either they won't fit in the key slot or in the case of a combination lock, (a terminal with a keyboard) it will take you an extreme amount of time. (days to write back door code or algorithms to figure out passwords without any hint to user access codes) Even R2-D2 who had a processor for a brain and a direct interface (pre-installed slicer tool, pretty sure C3PO didn't have one so it isn't common to all droids) took time to unlock doors and find schematics to shut down trash compactors. I am pretty sure the average PC is not capable of that kind of calculation and speed typing. This is what slicer tools are for. It isn't like you can just grab a hairpin or a peice of straw and fiddle around with the innards of a computer until you hear a clicking sound. (Also a mechanics check)

(I love that my last post was completely glossed over except for a 'like' from whafrog (thanks for that) and addresses all of the arguments still being made)

(I love that my last post was completely glossed over except for a 'like' from whafrog (thanks for that) and addresses all of the arguments still being made)

Well, you're repeating some of what I said on page one, and I got no likes at all for that one I wouldn't worry about it. That's what happens in forums, the social response/feedback sometimes seems almost random.

You are arguing that slicing can NEVER happen without any type of tools.

Right. And a keyboard attached to a computer is a tool. Anything that can send commands to the target is a tool. You need to broaden your definition a bit.

How many keyboard/input-less computers are characters encountering? In most situations, things like keyboards will already be present.

Slicer gear isn't meant to be a backpack of keyboards, monitors, etc. Its some hardware for things like door locks (or the specific lock breaker gear), some cables I'm sure, and things like programs and viruses on a portable drive to assist in the slicing. Saying no one can even attempt to slice anything without to gear is beyond restrictive.

Depends on how many security systems and ATMs they are trying to slice in to. ATMs only give you the number pad and a couple other buttons. Most home/business security systems give the same. You don't get much functionality. However, if your slicer had a keyboard and monitor they could attach the hardware to the system and bypass the user interface to get at the code behind it and work their slicer magic. By design, the UI has extremly limited functionality and you have to use a tool to access the areas where you can actuall mess with the system.

How often do we see full computer screens in Star Wars? Most of the time we see a panel of buttons without any kind of screen at all. R2 does most of the slicing in the movies, and in the Rise of the Old Masters we get to see Ezra do a bit of slicing - Using something that looks like the arm R2 extends to access computers. Visual interfaces don't seem to be a common thing in the Star Wars universe.

I'd imagine a slicer's tool kit to include a heavily modified datapad, and a bunch of access adapters, as well as some tools for physical modifications to the computer system to gain access to important functions that otherwise you wouldn't be able to. More complicated jobs would require less simple tools. I imagine many a Slicer has a heavily modified Astromech droid, if only to avoid carrying around a full scale computer system on their back. Lord knows I wouldn't want to be hefting around my computer tower and monitor when I'm trying to infiltrate an Imperial base.