So, I was exploring the use of crew on B-Wings and ran into an interesting question. If one puts Leebo as crew on a B-Wing and Advanced Sensors, what happens when the B-Wing uses Advanced Sensors to activate Leebo? Leebo gives an Ion Token, then the dial should be revealed. So I did some digging.

Now, to find the answer, I start by taking a look at how Ion Tokens actually work.

So the actual effect of the Ion Token takes place in the Planning phase. It indicates one does not assign a maneuver dial. In the Activation phase, the result is that the ship performs its maneuver as if it were assigned a 1 forward white maneuver.

Now, one could say that, at the moment the maneuver dial would be revealed is when the Ion Token's second effect, the 1 white forward, is actually activated. After all it doesn't specify the Planning effect must happen first.

Hence the quandary. If Leebo is used before the dial is revealed, is the ship ioned this turn or next?

The FAQ currently has no direct answer, but we can drawn an inference with regards to advanced sensors, cloaking, and decloaking. In this case, the question was posed whether a TIE Phantom with advanced sensors could cloak before the dial is removed, then immediately decloak to get the decloaking movement. The answer was no. The justification seems to have been a timing issue. The trigger 'before revealing the dial' has passed so it can't act as a trigger for decloaking.

So if we apply this logic to this situation seems to be 'The B-Wing is ioned next turn.'

Do any of you see any flaw in this situation? Is my logic faulty? Is there a ruling I missed that would indicate otherwise?

Interesting, I think you may have found a loophole here.

Using advanced sensors happens in the activation phase (in that you can activate advanced sensors in the planning phase) so using leebo at this point gives you an ion token.

Now the quandary is you have a dial to flip whereas previously you didn’t and the question is what takes precedence.

The Ion rules reminder card states:

“A Ship with an Ion token assigned to it follow these special rules during these phases”

So now that you have the token from the beginning of the activation phase, does the ion effect override your manoeuvre dial, instinctively I would say yes, referring to the previous statement regarding special rules.

I would say that you do the white 1 this turn overriding the dial and removing the ion token in the process.

Again this is just my reasoning but certainly a question worth asking FFG.

Interesting, I think you may have found a loophole here.

Using advanced sensors happens in the activation phase (in that you can activate advanced sensors in the planning phase) so using leebo at this point gives you an ion token.

Now the quandary is you have a dial to flip whereas previously you didn’t and the question is what takes precedence.

The Ion rules reminder card states:

“A Ship with an Ion token assigned to it follow these special rules during these phases”

So now that you have the token from the beginning of the activation phase, does the ion effect override your manoeuvre dial, instinctively I would say yes, referring to the previous statement regarding special rules.

I would say that you do the white 1 this turn overriding the dial and removing the ion token in the process.

Again this is just my reasoning but certainly a question worth asking FFG.

I do think your reasoning is logical also, though - I could see this going either way honestly, but I would put money on it not overriding your chosen maneuver.

I would say the ion effect takes place in the following turn. It affects your planning phase by denying you a chance to choose a maneuver, but you've already passed that point.

The only precedent I can think of for the time lag is the FAQ entry for "Fel's Wrath" where if he gets destroyed by Corran in the End phase, he still sticks around until the end of the following Combat phase, becasue his card says "end of the Combat phase". It seems to me that some things may indeed carry over to the following turn if their timing/trigger point has passed.

I don't think we can go to any precedent, because the ion effect is a state, not a triggered ability. So trying to compare it based on decloaking or other Advanced Sensors rules don't really apply. In this case, the ion rules say that "A ship with an ion token follows special rules during these phases." The rules for having an ion token during the Activation Phase do not actually require you to have completed the Planning Phase part of it. Each phase is presented as entirely independent rules. It just says you execute a 1 ahead, and then remove the token.

This can feel a little strange with the rulings concerning ions and missing dials, but I think it works fine:

1. Planning phase, place dial

2. Before revealing dial, Advanced Sensors

2a. Leebo - boost, then ion token

3. You now have an ion token - alternate rules come into effect

4. Reveal dial (you still have a dial, no reason you wouldn't do this step)

5. Execute the 1 ahead per the ion rules

6. Remove the token, again per the ion rules

...and you're done.

I agree with Buhallin on this. As writen that is the only way I can see it work. Still very possible FFG will FAQ it diffrently, but right now, that is what the rules tell us to do.

We had rhis discussion before, and I was originally thinking it carries ocer, but I was convinced that what Buhallin writes is rhe correct interpretation.

Buhallin is correct. All of the alternate rules are in effect. The rules for the Activation phase with Ion will override the standard rules and dial or no dial, you will execute a 1 white forward before removing the ion.

What a weird interaction of effects.

I can see Buhallin's point of different effects coming in during each phase, but the problem is that a dial is in play. The phase change for activation says " The owner moves the ship as if it was assigned a white 1 forward", but you have a dial that shows something else. You would have two maneuvers in play at the same time. And could the player then not choose an order of effect? Is a dial considered an effect - no, not likely. So how does this get resolved at the table and by what mechanic?

I would see a "coming into effect next round" being easier to roll through. The other way leads to a more complicated resolution.

I think I'll put this one in Frank's inbox because it is a good one.

while ioned, you don't 'reveal your dial' you simply move as if you had been assigned a. 1 white forward. The dial you assigned just sits there.

while ioned, you don't 'reveal your dial' you simply move as if you had been assigned a. 1 white forward. The dial you assigned just sits there.

It doesn't actualy say that though. If ioned the "normal" way, you have the token during the planing phase and so do not assign a dial. But in this case you do have a dial assigned and the ion card doesn't say you do not reveale the dial. It does how ever instruct us to move as if assigned a 1 white forward maneuver. So if we are following the rules as writen, we do reveal the dial, but what ever is on it doesn't mater as we move as if assigned a 1 white forward.

Not that it currently matters much, but if there where/are other effect depending on what maneuver you reveal it could be a relevant distinction.

Till we get a ruling, I'd expect to treat it as a trigger issue, ion token didn't exist in planning, so it's not triggered, and would linger until the following planning phase, when it triggers and the effect is suffered. Partially because of the planning phase wording, and in part because the dial is placed, and ion tokens no dial precludes advanced sensors.

It's a little similar to fel's wrath's ghost, when killed by corran horn during the end phase. Ship Death is a state, but his ability sets the timing, ion tokens may be a state, but the rules set the timing

The Ion card is quite clear what effects the ion token has in each phase. Nowhere does it say you have to skip the movement dial in the planning phase for the effect in the activation phase to work.

We have plenty of effects that change the revealed maneuver (Nien Nunb, Navigator, Boba Fett, Stay on Target) so why should an Ion token not be able to override the revealed maneuer? Advaced Sensors was triggered because you were about to reveal the dial, so you have to then go through with revealng it. Which could also be the trigger for other effects. And then the Ion effect for the Activation phase changed how you move, just like say Navigator does.

I don't think we can go to any precedent, because the ion effect is a state, not a triggered ability. So trying to compare it based on decloaking or other Advanced Sensors rules don't really apply. In this case, the ion rules say that "A ship with an ion token follows special rules during these phases." The rules for having an ion token during the Activation Phase do not actually require you to have completed the Planning Phase part of it. Each phase is presented as entirely independent rules. It just says you execute a 1 ahead, and then remove the token.

This can feel a little strange with the rulings concerning ions and missing dials, but I think it works fine:

1. Planning phase, place dial

2. Before revealing dial, Advanced Sensors

2a. Leebo - boost, then ion token

3. You now have an ion token - alternate rules come into effect

4. Reveal dial (you still have a dial, no reason you wouldn't do this step)

5. Execute the 1 ahead per the ion rules

6. Remove the token, again per the ion rules

...and you're done.

The problem I have with this is that, even if we consider 'ionized' a state, the effects from that state take place at the planning phase, not in the middle of the activation phase.

The question is:

"Do you move the 1-Forward White because you have an ion token?... Or because you don't have a dial?"

I think the correct answer is the latter, which means that it isn't different to be ionized in the activation phase, the attack phase, or the end phase. The time to check for the ionized state has already passed. You are ionized, yes... So what? Being ionized, or not, only truly matters in the planning phase.

It is much like Fel's Wrath destroyed by Corran Horn in the End phase. Fel's ability allows him to survive till the end of the combat phase, but the combat phase just have passed, so he lives practically for another whole new round, until the time to check for his ability comes again.

The Ion card is quite clear what effects the ion token has in each phase. Nowhere does it say you have to skip the movement dial in the planning phase for the effect in the activation phase to work.

We have plenty of effects that change the revealed maneuver (Nien Nunb, Navigator, Boba Fett, Stay on Target) so why should an Ion token not be able to override the revealed maneuer? Advaced Sensors was triggered because you were about to reveal the dial, so you have to then go through with revealng it. Which could also be the trigger for other effects. And then the Ion effect for the Activation phase changed how you move, just like say Navigator does.

Those abilities alter something into something else, white to green, left bank to right bank.

Activation phase of the ion effect card tells us to move the ship as if it has been assigned a white [1 forward] maneuver. But it says nothing about what to do with the dial because there shouldn't be one if you did the previous Planning phase step. Jumping in to this point with the ion effect you would move a 1 white straight, then the maneuver on your dial because you have revealed it and must move the movement shown on the dial.

The question is:

"Do you move the 1-Forward White because you have an ion token?...

You move 1 forward white because you have an ion token. It simply overwrites anything else the dial may otherwise show.

The ion effect doesn't need the planing phase to go into effect, because each part of the process is a independent step in the process. There's no if/then involved here, just a series of steps to perform due to a given state.

Those abilities alter something into something else, white to green, left bank to right bank.

I think the idea that having two maneuvers so this doesn't work, is creating rules where none exist. The Ion state simply overwrites what ever is there because that's what the rules say you do. So you don't actually have two, you have one, the one that the Ion card says you have.

The question is:

"Do you move the 1-Forward White because you have an ion token?... Or because you don't have a dial?"

You move 1-forward white because the ion token reference card says you do so during the activation phase. That card distinguishes nicely between planning phase and activation phase.

There's nothing about the ion effect starting in the planning phase. If you have an ion token, it changes the rules for certain phases. That's it. Can someone point out the part that says you only do it if you do all three phases?

The dial isn't a problem either. You reveal it as normal, but the changed ion rules replace the normal "execute the revealed maneuver" to "execute a while 1 ahead". It doesn't matter if the dial is sitting there, or what it shows... The rule that would do something with it is gone.

As dvor says, you move the white 1 ahead because the rules say "A ship with an ion token assigned to it..." At no point do HHS ion rules - or ANY rules for that matter - tell you what to do when you don't have a dial.

Fel's Wrath is completely different. He says that when he's destroyed, he isn't removed until the end of the combat phase. That's a specific point in the game flow, and he waits for that point in the flow no matter when he's actually destroyed. There is nothing in the ion effect rules that says "Do this here". It says "If you have an ion token, these phases work differently".

So, after reading the reference card (couldn't see them before from my phone), if the ion effect is not a sequence and has a determined, different, effect for each phase, then yes, it produces the paradox.

In that case, the token should have preference -since the prerequisites for its resolution are met- but nevertheless, it deserves an answer from devs, just in case.

However, I still agree with Sergovan in that the 1-Forward it may be an intended consequence of not having dial (since when the ion effect card was made, it was impossible to get an ion token before the combat phase).

Also note, that Ion effects (at least till now) always take effect the round after getting the token. In essence, this is the first time that the token may be both gained and resolved on the same round, which MAY go against the developers intent.

I kinda have to go with sergovan on this one. A strict RAW interpretation has the ioned ship both moving 1straight AND whatever the planned maneuver is. That obviously isn't what is intended or how it will be ruled, but yeah, since the ion rules card does not say to not perform the normal steps of the activation phase, if you have a dial set while ioned you still have to reveal it and perform that maneuver, the ion card is just adding additional things to do in the activation phase. Normally that is not a problem since you wouldn't have a dial set, so there would not be an extra maneuver to perform. Without text along the lines of "don't perform the chosen maneuver, execute a white 1straight instead" then if the dial is set you have to do that maneuver and nothing on the ion card changes that.

A strict RAW interpretation has the ioned ship both moving 1straight AND whatever the planned maneuver is.

No, it doesn't. The normal rules tell you to execute what's on the dial. The ion rules tell you to move the ship as if it was assigned a 1 forward. That replaces the normal rules - it has to, because otherwise (in the standard case) the normal rules tell you to execute something that doesn't exist, and you have an error condition. If, as some people are suggesting, moving 1 ahead is the result of not having a dial, then you'd try and execute your dial, not find a dial, do a one ahead, and then the ion rules would tell you to move a 1 ahead.

Replacement of the "Execute a Maneuver" rule is the only thing that works here.

Remember that revealing a dial and executing the maneuver are two different steps in the phase. There's no reason you can't reveal a dial, and then do nothing with it.

And, again, there is no paradox. You trigger Advanced Sensors. You then continue to reveal your dial, but there's nothing else that references it. The dial doesn't vanish, it still gets revealed, all the necessary pieces are in place. No vanishes, no paradox.

if you have a dial set while ioned you still have to reveal it and perform that maneuver, the ion card is just adding additional things to do in the activation phase.

That's not really true though. The Ion effect is telling you to treat your dial as if it was set to 1 forward. That means it's overwriting what ever is there currently. Which in most cases is nothing because you don't set one.

Remember that revealing a dial and executing the maneuver are two different steps in the phase. There's no reason you can't reveal a dial, and then do nothing with it.

Except that nothing is telling you to reveal the dial and then ignore it. If the rules for the ion token said "perform a white 1straight maneuver instead" then an argument might be made that it was a replacement effect, but it doesn't say "instead" or "replace" or anything like that, it simply says "do X in the activation phase" and says absolutely nothing about ignoring the normal procedures for that phase.

Normally, without a dial set, the ship has no maneuver to execute and so the ship only needs to execute the ion maneuver, but if a dial is set, and there is no effect telling you to ignore it or not execute its maneuver, then you still have to do so.

Hypothetically, if there was a pilot ability or some such that was

"During the activation phase assign a focus token to this ship"

That obviously wouldn't replace the chosen maneuver, in fact, any ability

"During the activation phase do 'X' "

I don't think anyone would suggest that 'X' replaces the maneuver set on the dial

"During the activation phase perform a barrel roll"

Performing the roll is not replacing the maneuver on the dial, it is in addition to it

"During the activation phase perform a white 1 straight maneuver"

Would be the same thing, unless it says "instead of your chosen maneuver" it is in addition to the normal rules, which means if you have a dial set you have to reveal it and execute the revealed maneuver in addition to whatever special rules are in play.

The Ion effect is telling you to treat your dial as if it was set to 1 forward. That means it's overwriting what ever is there currently. Which in most cases is nothing because you don't set one.

No it isn't. It does not even remotely actually say that. That is how we generally think of it but that is not what the rules card says. It says

"Don't set a dial in the planning phase". Well and good. If there is no dial then there will be no planned maneuver in the activation phase.

"Perform a white 1 straight maneuver" in the activation phase. Ok. Nowhere does it say that effect replaces something, it is just telling you to perform an additional effect. So you follow the regular rules for the game, reveal dial and execute maneuver, because there is nothing telling you to not do so.

Edit:

Not going to bother. There just isn't anything out there that says conclusively one way or the other.

So has anyone emailed FFG this question yet?