I am looking foward to trying out the A4 upgrade, but a 360 degree firing ARC is a powerful thing, particullarly with hypermoblie ships running around. the turret makes you more flexible and gives you options. I like some of the scum options for blaster turret and the bomb capability. A4, well, we will see.

This, with the extra point that Kavil's special ability only kicks in out of arc.

Their main guns aren't going to be any more efficient on offense with the -A4. So does throwing the second attack from the turret on there actually change that? If it's an ion, not really - you can combine it with the control aspect, but actual damage improvement is going to be minimal. If it's a Blaster, no - you're going to have two attacks which are actually less efficient.

How is having two shots "less efficient"?

Because the Blaster Turret is going to eat the focus token that you could otherwise have used to improve the base attack, and you're giving them double the defense dice in the process.

You forget the primary attack comes first.

So if you make your primary attack first, and spend the focus, what happens to your second attack?

Sheesh.

The point is, if you hit but don't need a focus, you get a 2nd attack, or you miss and still have a focus. Sheesh, don't be so defensive and no it all about it.

I'm not sure why people are so gleefully pointing out that it allows two attacks per turn. I'd rather have one big attack.

Because there are clauses to the 2nd attack, e.g. Ion shot, and autoblaster shot. I agree with you on crew slot though.

With that in mind, most of the thought bantered on this forum has been over pure damage. Like buhallin stated we should do apples to apples comparisons. Unlike what buhallin actually did (comparing wedge to an A4 is not an apples to apples comparison), you have to compare the A4 to its sister vanilla ship.

I think you have your apples confused with your oranges here.

The -A4 turns the Y-wing into a forward-facing dogfighter. The suggested configuration we were discussing runs 29 points. If you're going to compare that ship and its effectiveness to something else, you need to compare it to a forward-facing dogfighter that runs 29 points. I suggested several options, we focused on Wedge because he's a good example. But you can and should compare it to any straight-up dogfighter for effectiveness. It's when you start comparing it to alternate roles - like, say, turret-loaded control ships - that you've got a mismatch.

Adding a crew spot wouldn't be nearly as interesting as what the title does. Is it obviously and brings the Y-wing to the top level like the Chardaan and A-wing Test Pilot, no. But this is such a new way to fly Y-wings (except for those who flew 5 Ys so long ago), that there will be a bit of an adjustment. The fact that it makes the Y-wing fly a bit like how I remember from Rogue Squadron is a fun plus.

Why? A crew slot would just make it more like a HWK. What's the point of having a bunch of different ships with only small tweaks. The title is a much more interesting solution as it makes Ywings much more unique.

There's nothing wrong with subtle differences. that said, I think a Y-Wing with this ability plus a crew slot would still be a very different beast from a HWK. It would be more manoeuvrable, tougher, deal more damage, It's pilot abilities are totally different and it can carry torpedoes and bombs.

The point is, if you hit but don't need a focus, you get a 2nd attack, or you miss and still have a focus. Sheesh, don't be so defensive and no it all about it.

This is actually exactly the point I'm trying to make. Running a Blaster Turret means you have to give up efficiency on the first attack if you want the second attack. Or you give up your turret functionality for absolutely nothing at all, as you suggest here.

This is the poster case for why it's a bad idea, and you're suggesting it like it's a strength.

With that in mind, most of the thought bantered on this forum has been over pure damage. Like buhallin stated we should do apples to apples comparisons. Unlike what buhallin actually did (comparing wedge to an A4 is not an apples to apples comparison), you have to compare the A4 to its sister vanilla ship.

I think you have your apples confused with your oranges here.

The -A4 turns the Y-wing into a forward-facing dogfighter. The suggested configuration we were discussing runs 29 points. If you're going to compare that ship and its effectiveness to something else, you need to compare it to a forward-facing dogfighter that runs 29 points. I suggested several options, we focused on Wedge because he's a good example. But you can and should compare it to any straight-up dogfighter for effectiveness. It's when you start comparing it to alternate roles - like, say, turret-loaded control ships - that you've got a mismatch.

Forward facing you have Wedge, Luke, B-wings and E-wings. E-wings are a little more expensive, less tanky, more agile. B-wings can barrel roll . This is huge. B-wings can also take HLC as well as many other upgrades. B-wings have same hitpoint as Y. B-wings cannot take astromechs but can take system. Wedgie and Luka are both 3 attack less tanky, lot less red maneuver .

I can't see how the forward-Y is better than a B.

I'm not sure why people are so gleefully pointing out that it allows two attacks per turn. I'd rather have one big attack.

Because there are clauses to the 2nd attack, e.g. Ion shot, and autoblaster shot. I agree with you on crew slot though.

True, but a lot of them would have been covered if it had swapped the turret for a cannon.

To persuade people I'm not a big whiner, I'm actually very much looking forward to using the bomb slots. I'll use them more than I used torpedoes I reckon. Proton Bombs are awesome!

Honestly I am looking forward to scum and will be testing out the Y-wing with both configurations, in tandem and as separate additions. I will say though that I suspect i'll prefer turret 360.

The point is, if you hit but don't need a focus, you get a 2nd attack, or you miss and still have a focus. Sheesh, don't be so defensive and no it all about it.

This is actually exactly the point I'm trying to make. Running a Blaster Turret means you have to give up efficiency on the first attack if you want the second attack. Or you give up your turret functionality for absolutely nothing at all, as you suggest here.

This is the poster case for why it's a bad idea, and you're suggesting it like it's a strength.

OMG Read carefully:

It is like a gunner function, you DON'T have to use the second attack, lets say you miss with your first attack but still have a focus, you can trigger a second attack. If you hit with your 1st attack without the focus, great you get a second attack, if you need the focus to hit, you can sacrifice the second attack to get for sure damage (like accuracy corrector), you don't HAVE to use the second attack.

I've been trying to find some way to like the BTL. I've been pondering it ever since I first saw it (you know, like...a day or two ago) but I haven't been able to convince myself it was really worth having. A weak primary, followed by a low-damage second attack (either ion, autoblaster, or BT?) doesn't seem too great when I could just fire outside of my arc instead.

And then I remembered Marksmanship. It'd essentially work as a focus for both attacks, right? That definitely makes BTL a little better. Only downside is that you need an EPT, which means you need that astromech (R2-D6, is it? Don't remember for certain), and then you can't take the generic R2 that Y-wings love so much.

Thoughts?

Honestly I am looking forward to scum and will be testing out the Y-wing with both configurations, in tandem and as separate additions. I will say though that I suspect i'll prefer turret 360.

Me too, but I really like the idea of flying them either side of a Firespray, maybe with bombs AND turrets - bombs dissuade people from moving around the side of the Firespray (into its blindspot) and Ions outright stop them. Ooh, exciting times!

Crew would have been a little OP, if only because Dutch + weapon engineer is fantastically good. TLs for everyone!

Btl A4 is going to be tough to use. 2 attacks per turn is nice, but if they are naked dice it's not great. I think the best uses might include EPTs via R2D6 or kavil that modify dice without extra actions, such as predator. The agromech is also not bad. Still, it will be tough. It may be best to stick with traditional turrets in the end.

Crew would have been a little OP, if only because Dutch + weapon engineer is fantastically good. TLs for everyone!

Btl A4 is going to be tough to use. 2 attacks per turn is nice, but if they are naked dice it's not great. I think the best uses might include EPTs via R2D6 or kavil that modify dice without extra actions, such as predator. The agromech is also not bad. Still, it will be tough. It may be best to stick with traditional turrets in the end.

See above mate, Kavil only effects out of arc. Wasted on an A4.

Crew would have been a little OP, if only because Dutch + weapon engineer is fantastically good. TLs for everyone!

Btl A4 is going to be tough to use. 2 attacks per turn is nice, but if they are naked dice it's not great. I think the best uses might include EPTs via R2D6 or kavil that modify dice without extra actions, such as predator. The agromech is also not bad. Still, it will be tough. It may be best to stick with traditional turrets in the end.

See above mate, Kavil only effects out of arc. Wasted on an A4.

You guys keep missing the point. You talk about that 2 dice primary as if it were occurring in a vacuum. It isn't. A 3 agility defender with a focus has only one token, and 2 attacks is much more efficient at getting through that token. You shoot with your primary and leave your opponent with the choice of spending his token to defend against a point or two of damage or save it for the less damaging but much more dangerous Ion that is coming next.

More, there are other ships on the table and you don't HAVE to shoot at the ship with a focus token. There are no target requirements on the A4 title, and a 2 die naked shot has an excellent chance of damaging a 3 die naked defender. 3 vs. 3 with the Ion has an even better chance. A successful Ion hit means next turn that ship is facing 3 die primary followed by 3 die Ion, a very dangerous situation likely to result in 2 or more damage.

One of the main reasons swarms are dangerous despite their 2 dice attacks is that they can keep shooting at a target long after that target has run out of defensive tokens. Comparing to a 29 point Y-Wing is a poor example. Compare a 23 point Gold vs 2 TIEs. The Gold throws more dice (5 vs. 4), at a higher PS, with approximately equal toughness. It also has a major control advantage, and a greater ability to concentrate fire (because both shots come from exactly the same spot). A Warthog vs. 2 TIEs in a joust has a better than 50/50 chance of winning, despite costing 1 point less, and its efficiency increases dramatically as the agility of its targets decreases.

The 23 point Warthog will absolutely demolish a 22 point Blue, a 24 point Dagger, or a 24 point Blue with FCS. The damage output from the Y is higher, and it gains control. Considering that nobody has even attempted to argue that B-Wings are inefficient, I'm puzzled as to why anyone believes the A4 is a bust.

Finally, I have never subscribed to the idea that Y-Wings lack maneuverability. They have one of the 2 all important 1 speed maneuvers (those being 1 Straight and 1 Turns), they can slow bank, they have the best arc dodging maneuver in the game (3 Bank), a useful 4 k-turn, and a white Turn. It maneuvers just fine, with or without an R2. Personally I feel it has a distinct advantage over the B-Wing on the dial, though the Barrel Roll puts the B-Wing ahead overall in maneuverability it is situational and costs an action.

A BTL-A4 is hardly an unstoppable juggernaught, but it is a very, very dangerous ship. It will absolutely force your opponent to fly around it and deal with it early, which is the hallmark of an effective piece. And at 23 points, it is an easy piece to include in any list.

OMG Read carefully:

It is like a gunner function, you DON'T have to use the second attack, lets say you miss with your first attack but still have a focus, you can trigger a second attack. If you hit with your 1st attack without the focus, great you get a second attack, if you need the focus to hit, you can sacrifice the second attack to get for sure damage (like accuracy corrector), you don't HAVE to use the second attack.

Yes, I get this. I really do. Well, except the part about it being sure damage like Accuracy Corrector, that's pretty wrong... But let's leave that one for a moment and stick to the utility of the Blaster Turret as a second attack. Take a deep breath, release the death-grip on the Y-wing plushy, set it to the side, and look at what this means.

Here's the problem: The whole point of the -A4 title is the second attack. You're spending 4 points on a turret that has no turret capability. The trade-off with the -A4 is that you get a second attack each turn, trading the lost utility of the turret for the extra damage in your forward arc.

So let's take it to an extreme and assume you ALWAYS spend your focus. What have you got? A bog-standard Y-wing at +4 cost. That hasn't proven to be a terribly effective fighter at its current cost; at +4, no way. If we go all the way to the other end, you always roll pure hits, and you can always spend the focus for a free extra attack with the blaster turret.

But it won't fall out that perfect, so let's look at the cases we've got. There are basically 3 outcomes from each attack:

1. You roll all blanks. No need to spend the focus, no damage but you have the turret attack. This is basically your Gunner scenario.

2. You roll all hits. No need to spend the focus, you get damage and the blaster. This is ideal.

3. You roll at least one eyeball. Now you have a choice. You spend the focus, which means that this round your turret is wasted points, or you don't, which means your primary attack is less effective than it could be.

It's not like having a Gunner. It's worse. It's having a Gunner that will guarantee that your better (3 dice) attack has nothing to modify it. Powering two attacks to effectiveness is tricky on any ship... doing it when your second attack eats an additional focus is a trap.

I don't know if its 28 points worthy, but this setup might be able to do some sneaky damage:

Gray + R2-D6 + Predator + A4 + Blaster Turret

What you do is Focus for your action. Fire your primary, re-roll with predator. Then spend your focus to fire with the Blaster Turret. Then you get your predator re-roll. This lets you fire with two modified attacks. Pretty nasty at Range 1.

Maybe with a squad like this to take some heat off the Y-wing:

Gray + R2-D6 + Predator + A4 + Blaster Turret

Garvin

Bule + HLC

Tala

Sits at 96 points so gives you 4 points to play with. Probably not super competitive but could be fun. Blue + HLC and Garven make for higher priority target letting the Gray get in close to do some damage. Garven shoots, then passes focus to the Gray. He'll be double focused making one of his attacks a lot more accurate. I would probably through adv. Sensors on the Blue or FCS. Hell maybe IPM on the Tala. The Blue can kind of hang back and snipe.

The Y-Wings in the movies all had the BTL-A4 title, don't they? ^^

It would have been too easy to blast or ion Vader and his pals behind them.

Vader was a genius:

"Good news everybody: I sense their Y-Wings have equipped the title. We are save to approach them from behind."

Actually, only the Y-wings in Episode 4, and some (but not all) in Episode 6. Also, only 2 Y-wings went into battle with working ICTs, and they can optionally set them to face backwards.

Really? In the massive final battle rebels have managed to get 2 Y-Wings which are capable to rotate the turrets?

How did you know?

Just for the record, IMO the Blaster Turret is probably an even worse fit on the A4 than it is on an S3, and that is saying something. The last thing you need when running an action starved setup (2 attacks with only one action) is to exacerbate the situation by adding yet another even more action-inefficient piece to the puzzle.

I think this is a great upgrade for a few reasons:

1.) It shakes up the Y-wing, as others have pointed out.

2.) It does something new: 2 attacks that are not limited by actions haven't been seen yet.

3.) It makes the Y-wing feel like it should, like a heavy attack fighter.

3 is really what does it for me. We've all heard about how Concussion Missiles are really only good against AGI 1 stuff (now AGI 0 stuff also). The A4 is going to be similar, not too good against high AGI ships, but with a pretty high potential against low AGI ships. I can see an A4 taking a line on a Falcon or Decimator and just pumping shot after shot into the big hull. The large ships are a bit more predictable in their line, so the Y-wing can follow just fine. I see it as a role-player more than a star. I'm not sure 4 of these are really going to do that well (unless you run into a double Decimator list).

A few other thoughts:

The A4/Ion/Gold at 23 points stacks up pretty closely to 2x Z-95s. Similar firepower, similar hit points, similar PS. The Z's are tougher and much better at blocking, with better action economy. The Y doesn't lose firepower after the first 4 hits and takes up less room on the table, and has the utility of the ion turret, as well as costing a point less.

One action to support 2 attacks doesn't bother me that much. If you really want to damage something, you boost the first and let the ion turret do it's probable single damage. If you really need to ion something, you save your Focus for it. There's also the chance that you roll terribly or really well with the primary attack, and a Focus won't benefit it anyway, so you keep it for the Ion.

You guys keep missing the point. You talk about that 2 dice primary as if it were occurring in a vacuum. It isn't. A 3 agility defender with a focus has only one token, and 2 attacks is much more efficient at getting through that token. You shoot with your primary and leave your opponent with the choice of spending his token to defend against a point or two of damage or save it for the less damaging but much more dangerous Ion that is coming next.

More, there are other ships on the table and you don't HAVE to shoot at the ship with a focus token. There are no target requirements on the A4 title, and a 2 die naked shot has an excellent chance of damaging a 3 die naked defender. 3 vs. 3 with the Ion has an even better chance. A successful Ion hit means next turn that ship is facing 3 die primary followed by 3 die Ion, a very dangerous situation likely to result in 2 or more damage.

One of the main reasons swarms are dangerous despite their 2 dice attacks is that they can keep shooting at a target long after that target has run out of defensive tokens. Comparing to a 29 point Y-Wing is a poor example. Compare a 23 point Gold vs 2 TIEs. The Gold throws more dice (5 vs. 4), at a higher PS, with approximately equal toughness. It also has a major control advantage, and a greater ability to concentrate fire (because both shots come from exactly the same spot). A Warthog vs. 2 TIEs in a joust has a better than 50/50 chance of winning, despite costing 1 point less, and its efficiency increases dramatically as the agility of its targets decreases.

The 23 point Warthog will absolutely demolish a 22 point Blue, a 24 point Dagger, or a 24 point Blue with FCS. The damage output from the Y is higher, and it gains control. Considering that nobody has even attempted to argue that B-Wings are inefficient, I'm puzzled as to why anyone believes the A4 is a bust.

Finally, I have never subscribed to the idea that Y-Wings lack maneuverability. They have one of the 2 all important 1 speed maneuvers (those being 1 Straight and 1 Turns), they can slow bank, they have the best arc dodging maneuver in the game (3 Bank), a useful 4 k-turn, and a white Turn. It maneuvers just fine, with or without an R2. Personally I feel it has a distinct advantage over the B-Wing on the dial, though the Barrel Roll puts the B-Wing ahead overall in maneuverability it is situational and costs an action.

A BTL-A4 is hardly an unstoppable juggernaught, but it is a very, very dangerous ship. It will absolutely force your opponent to fly around it and deal with it early, which is the hallmark of an effective piece. And at 23 points, it is an easy piece to include in any list.

We arnt missing the point that primary attack has a 50% to hit that's one against three dice or more which is pretty good odds that the defender will have a focus token to use against the second attack.

I see a lot of arguments for why this doesn't work on rebel ships. I agree it is inferior on rebel Y's, but on the Scum Y with R4 and Ion Turret, unless you get action denied, you get to shoot both attacks with a modifier.

If you want turret action on Scum, then the Blaster is viable now as with an R4, you get a TL to modify.

BTL-A4 seems to be best suited on Scum Y's using R4 and the Ion Turret as two modifiable attacks with control is very viable. No other ship in the game now can control and cause more than 1 damage per turn.

Maneuvering the Y really isn't that hard either. It's pretty much on par with the X-wing for moves and once engaged, you are unlikely to want 3 turns.

And a 50/50 chance you also have a focus to use on your second attack. IIRC the damage output for an A4 with Ion is actually slightly higher than a simple 3 die attack, with control as an added bonus. It's hardly second-rate.