I just rewatched that segment.

first of all: those Y wings went down to the 2 attack dice Advanced in one good hit. Haha. So I think the game doesn't quite do the movies justice.

I think real Ties are meant to still be slightly sturdier and more on par with the Rebel fighters.

The Y-Wings in the movies all had the BTL-A4 title, don't they? ^^

It would have been too easy to blast or ion Vader and his pals behind them.

Vader was a genius:

"Good news everybody: I sense their Y-Wings have equipped the title. We are save to approach them from behind."

"They came from, behin-...." "Pops" aka Gold 5.

To tell the truth, bombs aren't usefull in the game. That's not an advantage for the Y-wing for sure ! Its' a lost of points to add them on the ship.

Only the title is good for it. But is that enough ?

It will always be good with ion turrets by the way, played as rebel I mean. But still expansive to make a difference with other ships, even with the title.

Kavil's scum is awesome. But you have to play scums.

Not my wish.

To tell the truth, bombs aren't usefull in the game. That's not an advantage for the Y-wing for sure ! Its' a lost of points to add them on the ship.

Agree to disagree! Bombs in the hands of the right players can be VERY effective - especially on a ship that can also shoot behind itself...

I think this looks like a great upgrade for the y wing. While some here are posting there brains out saying how bad it is, they seem to overlook the fact that not every release needs to be the new broken toy to be effective. This upgrade opens up a whole lot of options for list construction. The autoblaster is cheep enough to add on that it could get some mileage, it is 360. Could work nice at the back of a pack with a couple of double shots at the front. Who knows, but it certainly ain't doom and gloom, it cool we have some y wing love now.

To tell the truth, bombs aren't usefull in the game. That's not an advantage for the Y-wing for sure ! Its' a lost of points to add them on the ship.

Agree to disagree! Bombs in the hands of the right players can be VERY effective - especially on a ship that can also shoot behind itself...

Which it can't do if it takes the Bomb Loadout I believe.

I'm not saying it's a bad upgrade, I am saying five y-wings with it wouldn't work after the first pass.

Used in the right squad a heavy fighter like this could do well but it's still fundamentally a poor dog fighter and removing the 360 shot does not help that.

But used as a long range support ship pumping out ion shots and primary attacks it'll be a threat.

Two attacks seems nice, but I'm thinking in with the guys who don't like it much. As a similar comparison, look at Cluster Missiles vs Proton Rockets. Five dice once does way more average damage than three dice twice, especially against high agility targets, compounded by the fact that it's difficult to have tokens to modify both or even one of the cluster missile attacks.

Your options with A4 all are seemingly worse than cluster missiles. One two die primary attack followed by:

1. The most attractive option, an Ion Cannon. Possibly do a damage or two with your primary and follow it up with one more damage and an Ion token. But, two attacks without multiple tokens, particularly a weak attack like it's 2 die primary, likely will not both hit. Consider the lack of EPTs on Y wings except for Kavil, on whom the A4 is a waste. Rebels can take R2-D6 for Push but then, you can't take R2 astromech to alleviate that stress. Best option here is Drea Renthal with Unhinged Astromech.

2. The Blaster Turret. Gives your second attack three dice. But you have to have a focus to activate it, which you couldn't have spent to improve your weak primary attack. Again, more actions needed. The new R4Agromech is there for Scum, which gives you a target lock after sending the focus to activate the turret. Now, with the ability to make Blaster Turret not so terrible, I'd rather keep the turret, particularly with Kavil.

3. Autoblaster Turret. Cheap, efficient. But, Range 1 only. Slap this on Kavil, also, or even on Dutch, so you can have a cheap support ship with some close Range protection. Problem with A4, Range 1.

Maybe A4 is sound in principle, but none of the upgrades that can be equipped with it synergize particularly well. It should have been any secondary weapon. Fire off a flechette after your primary, or let Horton wreck face with a torpedo after a primary.

The Y-Wings in the movies all had the BTL-A4 title, don't they? ^^

It would have been too easy to blast or ion Vader and his pals behind them.

Vader was a genius:

"Good news everybody: I sense their Y-Wings have equipped the title. We are save to approach them from behind."

Actually, only the Y-wings in Episode 4, and some (but not all) in Episode 6. Also, only 2 Y-wings went into battle with working ICTs, and they can optionally set them to face backwards.

I just rewatched that segment.

first of all: those Y wings went down to the 2 attack dice Advanced in one good hit. Haha. So I think the game doesn't quite do the movies justice.

I think real Ties are meant to still be slightly sturdier and more on par with the Rebel fighters.

You're forgetting, 1 combat could be as fast as 3 seconds, so the Advanced could have performed several attacks in those seconds we see them blow up.

Two attacks seems nice, but I'm thinking in with the guys who don't like it much. As a similar comparison, look at Cluster Missiles vs Proton Rockets. Five dice once does way more average damage than three dice twice, especially against high agility targets, compounded by the fact that it's difficult to have tokens to modify both or even one of the cluster missile attacks.

Your options with A4 all are seemingly worse than cluster missiles. One two die primary attack followed by:

1. The most attractive option, an Ion Cannon. Possibly do a damage or two with your primary and follow it up with one more damage and an Ion token. But, two attacks without multiple tokens, particularly a weak attack like it's 2 die primary, likely will not both hit. Consider the lack of EPTs on Y wings except for Kavil, on whom the A4 is a waste. Rebels can take R2-D6 for Push but then, you can't take R2 astromech to alleviate that stress. Best option here is Drea Renthal with Unhinged Astromech.

2. The Blaster Turret. Gives your second attack three dice. But you have to have a focus to activate it, which you couldn't have spent to improve your weak primary attack. Again, more actions needed. The new R4Agromech is there for Scum, which gives you a target lock after sending the focus to activate the turret. Now, with the ability to make Blaster Turret not so terrible, I'd rather keep the turret, particularly with Kavil.

3. Autoblaster Turret. Cheap, efficient. But, Range 1 only. Slap this on Kavil, also, or even on Dutch, so you can have a cheap support ship with some close Range protection. Problem with A4, Range 1.

Maybe A4 is sound in principle, but none of the upgrades that can be equipped with it synergize particularly well. It should have been any secondary weapon. Fire off a flechette after your primary, or let Horton wreck face with a torpedo after a primary.

Except that it only lets you fire the turret weapon after the primary.

Edit: sorry I misread. Yeah I kind of agree on all points then. It's not perfect synergy. What it needs is someone who can grant additional focus.

Their main guns aren't going to be any more efficient on offense with the -A4. So does throwing the second attack from the turret on there actually change that? If it's an ion, not really - you can combine it with the control aspect, but actual damage improvement is going to be minimal. If it's a Blaster, no - you're going to have two attacks which are actually less efficient.

How is having two shots "less efficient"?

Because the Blaster Turret is going to eat the focus token that you could otherwise have used to improve the base attack, and you're giving them double the defense dice in the process.

You forget the primary attack comes first.

A4 is a good upgrade. There are members whose posts do not surprise. It is easy to be negative.

Mathwing can be a useful tool. However, it only presents a partial set of empirical data. It's a foggy picture at best. Once you get out of the lab and into the real world things tend to change radically because of the inclusion of unpredictable data points, ie: human behavior. Dependence on math for determining a ships quality is short sighted.

With that in mind, most of the thought bantered on this forum has been over pure damage. Like buhallin stated we should do apples to apples comparisons. Unlike what buhallin actually did (comparing wedge to an A4 is not an apples to apples comparison), you have to compare the A4 to its sister vanilla ship. The damage is better, but more importantly, the A4 upgrade radically alters the pilots number of tactical choices on the field. Suddenly, you can finish off a ship and ionize another! Or shoot at the same vessel. That has some powerful applications and has decent efficiency in a real world test environment (not y'all's calculators).

Keep doing the Mathwing though, it's interesting. Not authoritative, not exhaustive, but interesting.

To tell the truth, bombs aren't usefull in the game. That's not an advantage for the Y-wing for sure ! Its' a lost of points to add them on the ship.

Agree to disagree! Bombs in the hands of the right players can be VERY effective - especially on a ship that can also shoot behind itself...

Which it can't do if it takes the Bomb Loadout I believe.

Yes it can without the BTL-A10 Thunderbolt III upgrade.

Which it can't do if it takes the Bomb Loadout I believe.

Actually, it can - all the Bomb Loadout upgrade does is replace a Torpedo slot with a Bomb slot:

I believe you may be thinking about the BTL-A4 Y-Wing title, which allows the a Turret Upgrade to operate as a 2nd attack, but only in the forward arc:

A4 is a good upgrade. There are members whose posts do not surprise. It is easy to be negative.

Mathwing can be a useful tool. However, it only presents a partial set of empirical data. It's a foggy picture at best. Once you get out of the lab and into the real world things tend to change radically because of the inclusion of unpredictable data points, ie: human behavior. Dependence on math for determining a ships quality is short sighted.

With that in mind, most of the thought bantered on this forum has been over pure damage. Like buhallin stated we should do apples to apples comparisons. Unlike what buhallin actually did (comparing wedge to an A4 is not an apples to apples comparison), you have to compare the A4 to its sister vanilla ship. The damage is better, but more importantly, the A4 upgrade radically alters the pilots number of tactical choices on the field. Suddenly, you can finish off a ship and ionize another! Or shoot at the same vessel. That has some powerful applications and has decent efficiency in a real world test environment (not y'all's calculators).

Keep doing the Mathwing though, it's interesting. Not authoritative, not exhaustive, but interesting.

It's a good option.

It will not replace turreted Y-wings completely. I do like that it allows you different Y-wing configurations, that's truly fantastic.

It does not make the Y-wing into a dogfighter. It in my opinion should not be an auto-take for your Y-wings, but then thinking of it this itself is a good thing. I'm not a fan of Auto-takes.

What this card does is change the Y-wings role. Will the Y-wing do it as well as an X-wing? I don't think so, people think it will. We will see.

BTL-A4 won't break the game, but it does bring the Y-wing into line as a ship with options that can be effective. If you use the Scum version with an Agromech and Ion Turret you can focus with the primary attack and TL with the Ion attack. The best use of this is if you get behind an enemy as shaking you off will be a problem. You'll probably do 2 damage a turn, plus Ion token, but that's pretty efficient vs most small ships. Two of these on a big ship won't be good for it either.

Early positioning will be important, but even if you Ion from the front or side initially you can then easily tuck in behind the target when it has to move 1 forward next turn.

I like all the new Y-wing options as they turn the ship into a more diverse, heavy fighter it is supposed to be. It's not supposed to be agile like an E, it is supposed to doggedly attack inflicting damage over several rounds as its sturdy build helps it absorb damage.

Obigatory MathWing update on jousting values incoming later tonight....

Well, that short post got a lot of likes! (14 and counting...)

FYI I decided to go the nuclear approach and overhaul my post here with my updated methods and values, rather than just add updates for the Y-wing in this thread. It'll be done in a couple of days, I'm working on it piecemeal. I'll bump it when it's done. Right now there is no new ship info in there yet.

As far as opportunity costs go, 24 points (gold, turret, r2) is the same a a blue squadron with fire control system. I think id be willing to try it in place of the b wing.

Their main guns aren't going to be any more efficient on offense with the -A4. So does throwing the second attack from the turret on there actually change that? If it's an ion, not really - you can combine it with the control aspect, but actual damage improvement is going to be minimal. If it's a Blaster, no - you're going to have two attacks which are actually less efficient.

How is having two shots "less efficient"?

Because the Blaster Turret is going to eat the focus token that you could otherwise have used to improve the base attack, and you're giving them double the defense dice in the process.

You forget the primary attack comes first.

Sheesh.

Their main guns aren't going to be any more efficient on offense with the -A4. So does throwing the second attack from the turret on there actually change that? If it's an ion, not really - you can combine it with the control aspect, but actual damage improvement is going to be minimal. If it's a Blaster, no - you're going to have two attacks which are actually less efficient.

How is having two shots "less efficient"?

Because the Blaster Turret is going to eat the focus token that you could otherwise have used to improve the base attack, and you're giving them double the defense dice in the process.

You forget the primary attack comes first.

So if you make your primary attack first, and spend the focus, what happens to your second attack?

Sheesh.

If it's blaster turret, you wouldn't get one unless you had another focus token handy.

Edit: Yes I know it's a rhetorical question. I am fillingblanks.

I've seen a lot of maths comparing it to other ships, but what I'd really like to know is how much extra damage does that primary weapon attack to compared to my ion cannon alone? Let's assume I have one focus token and am shooting at a 3 agility ship at range 2 (let's say we'll use the focus token if we roll all focuses on the primary attack, otherwise save it). My gut feeling is not very much at all.

I'm not sure why people are so gleefully pointing out that it allows two attacks per turn. I'd rather have one big attack.

I'm not saying it's crap, and hey, it's 0 points. I'm wondering if there's going to be a new turret outsoon, specifically with this in mind.

I still say it should have introduced a crew slot...

Why? A crew slot would just make it more like a HWK. What's the point of having a bunch of different ships with only small tweaks. The title is a much more interesting solution as it makes Ywings much more unique.

I'm not sure why people are so gleefully pointing out that it allows two attacks per turn. I'd rather have one big attack.

Same here. Against Ag3 the primary attack won't inflict a lot of damage. Against Ag0 or Ag1 it will.

I am looking foward to trying out the A4 upgrade, but a 360 degree firing ARC is a powerful thing, particullarly with hypermoblie ships running around. the turret makes you more flexible and gives you options. I like some of the scum options for blaster turret and the bomb capability. A4, well, we will see.