My Sergeant is going the dual wield chain sword route and I have a question about the Counter Attack talent.

I currently counter vs 79 (49 base, 10 thanks to balanced chainsword and 20 on skill) and the free attack from Counter Attack is starting to look really attractive right now.

The exact text is as follows:

After successfully parrying an opponent’s attack, the character may immediately make an attack against that opponent using the weapon with which they parried as a free action, even though it is not their turn. This attack suffers a –20 penalty and may not be combined with any ability which allows more than one hit or attack such as Lighting Attack or Two-Weapon Fighting.

The question is as follows: do I roll versus 49 + 10 - 20 (base + standard attack - penalty)? Or do I roll versus 49 - 20 (base - penalty)?

I believe it's the former case.

I believe it's the former case.

That makes the talent pretty nice.

Dual Wield + Swift Attack + Counter = a lot of hits per turn.

Whether or not the Standard Attack bonus applies varies per GM. There was a similar thread with a few more opinions. I'm personally on the -20 side of the ruling, but your mileage may vary.

Whether or not the Standard Attack bonus applies varies per GM. There was a similar thread with a few more opinions. I'm personally on the -20 side of the ruling, but your mileage may vary.

Hmm, if it is a relic from earlier versions of similar systems (with a normal attack being +0 instead of +10) then I'd say that the uplifting of a normal attack to +10 would carry the counter attack along. Otherwise all attacks would be easier but Counter Attack would be relatively more difficult than it used to be.

I'll have the GM make a decision.

Counter attack precludes the use of Swift Attack, you realise?

Counter attack precludes the use of Swift Attack, you realise?

I think the OP meant that he can Swift Attack on his Turn and then Counter Attack every time he Parries, not necessarily Swift Attacking as a Counter Attack. He might have meant a lot of hits per Round , which is made up of Turns, but that's assuming on my part.

That would make sense, though Lightning Attack would be far more efficient, I would have thought.

That would make sense, though Lightning Attack would be far more efficient, I would have thought.

That was what I meant.

I don't have lightning attack just yet, I'm going for Blade Dancer first to remove the last of the dual wield penalty. After that I'll get Lightning Attack or maybe Crushing blow for the extra damage per hit.

Not really sure which to get after Blade Dancer atm.

Getting off the subject here, but I'd be more than happy to offer my advice on how to build your chainsword-happy character. Beam me a private message if you're interested.

But yeah, whether Counter Attacks are made at -20 or -10 is really just up to the GM. I don't think there are any other answers since it comes down to how he interprets Counter Attack.

EDIT: Actually, with how <Only War> words it, the attack made with Counter Attack is not explictly a Standard Attack. The attack (note the lowercase) is made with a -20 penalty, and that's it. This reinforces a -20 penalty rather than -10, but this ruling still requires a certain perspective.

I would love to be of assistance as well.

I would say it is just a -20, as you aren't making a Standard Attack, you are making a Counter Attack, which is a different type of attack. I wouldn't stack the bonuses.

As for talents, if you have HotE, there are chain mastery talents as well as Duelist, which gives you +10 to single combat which could also help.

This is the important part for my interpretation of it - attack. The Subtype "Attack" on all the abilities starting from page 242 is rather clear about what an attack is, and what not. Also the talent description is quite clear, instead of telling us that this is a standard attack etc. it just lists the Action Subtype and explicitly states that this is not combinable with attacks that generate more than one hit, listing them in detail. On the other hand this also allows to combine it with all attacks that do NOT generate several hits.

The talents allows you to use the subtype attack with theoretically all single hit abilities. It does not introduce us to another attack, that is just called attack and exists side by side with the attack called standard attack.

So for my interpretation this can be even used with actions like Standard Attack though I would not allow to perform an all out attack but some called shot or knock down for parrying some blow. Smacking someones face with your guard to knock him out is quite something I can imagine to be pulled of from a more than competent fighter.

As a PSA, I received an official answer concerning Counter Attack:

Me : It came up on the forums that [Counter Attack] uses a [standard Attack] as written. Does the Counter Attack gain the +10 from normal Standard Attacks for a final modifier of -10? I thought that the Counter Attack's modifier ignored the normal bonus from Standard Attacks, but now I'm not sure.
Tim Huckelbery : It's a –20 penalty, that replaces the usual +10 bonus.