Range and Surges

By HorusEye, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

I know this topic has been discussed before, but the answers I could dig up from the game designers are contradictory. I believe Adam Sadler from FFG wrote both these answers:

From the source thread for the Unofficial FAQ at Boardgamegeek.com:

"Q: Can you spend surges on a ranged "miss" to recover fatigue or activate other abilities?

A: If this is referring to not rolling enough range , then yes you can spend the surge."

From the formatted Unofficial FAQ at Boardgamegeek.com:

" Q: Can you spend surges on a ranged "miss" to recover fatigue or activate other abilities?

A: If an attack misses, then no surge abilities can be spent. This means that an X, insufficient range, or lacking a surge to spend for "Shadow" causes an attack to miss. If by some means you convert a miss into a hit, then you are free to spend surges as normal."

Edited by HorusEye

My understanding of the rules is that when an "X" is rolled, all other results are invalid and so you cannot spend surges unless through some ability the "X" is changed to a different result.

But in the case of insufficient range, if an "X" is not rolled, surges must be able to be spent to increase range. And if surges can be spent in this way when insufficient range is rolled, then it is my understanding that surges can also be spent to recover fatigue and activate other abilities. Thus, in a case where insufficient range is rolled, a player could choose to spend a surge to recover fatigue, etc. instead of choosing to increase range and score a hit. Which is consistent with your first quote, above.

Edited by Madmartigan

My understanding of the rules is that when an "X" is rolled, all other results are invalid and so you cannot spend surges unless through some ability the "X" is changed to a different result.

But in the case of insufficient range, if an "X" is not rolled, surges must be able to be spent to increase range. And if surges can be spent in this way when insufficient range is rolled, then it is my understanding that surges can also be spent to recover fatigue and activate other abilities. Thus, in a case where insufficient range is rolled, a player could choose to spend a surge to recover fatigue, etc. instead of choosing to increase range and score a hit. Which is consistent with your first quote, above.

The first quote, where he says, "spend the surge" I believe is referring to the surge on an ability to add the range. If you read it that way, the two rulings do not contradict.

If an attack is a miss ,surges cannot be spent. However, there are cases where an attack can be changed from a miss into a hit . If this is accomplished with a skill/ability that rerolls a die or adds range, fine. If this comes from a surge ability that is able to increase the range, that's also fine. Once the attack has been changed to "not a miss," then and only then can you spend other surges. This is because if an attack is a miss (whether by range or rolling an X) all other results are ignored, so those other surges would not be accessible as long as the attack remains a miss.

Let's say you're Avric, attacking with a bow. You roll 2 surges, but are short one range. You have:

(surge = + 1 range, + 1 damage) on your bow

(surge= recover 1 wound) on your hero sheet.

You may spend 1 surge on the range/damage to make the attack hit, and spend the other on recovering a wound or recovering a fatigue.

You may not use a surge to recover a wound and a surge to recover a fatigue and let the attack miss with range.

If we were to go straight RAW and ignore the errata, surges could not be spent to increase range, since the attack is determined a miss in step 3, and the surges are spent in step 4. However, this would make all (surge = + x range) abilities useless, unless you had a hero who had the "sorcery keyword," and even then it might as well be damage. The errata allows you do the steps slightly out of order- looking ahead to your ability to increase the range, and therefore allowing the attack to not be declared a miss. However, it does not otherwise change the statement in the rules that all results after an attack is decided to be a miss are ignored ("results" meaning the effects of any additional symbols rolled during the attack, including surges.)

Edited by Zaltyre

The first quote, where he says, "spend the surge" I believe is referring to the surge on an ability to add the range. If you read it that way, the two rulings do not contradict.

From the source thread for the Unofficial FAQ at Boardgamegeek.com:

"Q: Can you spend surges on a ranged "miss" to recover fatigue or activate other abilities?

A: If this is referring to not rolling enough range, then yes you can spend the surge."

The first answer was in response to spending surges to recover fatigue and activate other abilities, so it is a direct contradiction to the second answer. According to your interpretation then, the first answer was a mistake, and the second answer is correct?

Edited by Madmartigan

The first answer was in response to spending surges to recover fatigue and activate other abilities, so it is a direct contradiction to the second answer. According to your interpretation then, the first answer was a mistake, and the second answer is correct?

Yup. Again- if an attack is (and stays) a miss, the other results are ignored- that much is consistent with the rules. In cases where a miss can be converted into a hit, you're allowed to do so. After that, the attack isn't a miss anymore, so the bit about "ignoring results" doesn't apply.

If the first answer (and not the second) were correct, you'd be essentially completely swapping steps 3 and 4 of combat. That is, you'd roll, spend your surges, and then, if the attack is a miss, stop there. However, that's not how combat order goes- first you determine if the attack is a miss, then , if it isn't a miss, you can spend surges. The second ruling allows for the limited spending of a surge to change the answer of step 3, before moving into step 4 (I personally view it as looking ahead to step 4 early to say this attack won't miss once I spend the surge,) whereas the first ruling allows all of step 4 to precede step 3 (as long as you don't roll an X.)

Edited by Zaltyre

Perhaps his first reply " If this is referring to not rolling enough range , then yes you can spend the surge." should be read as " If this is referring to not rolling enough range , then yes you can spend the surge (increasing the range) ." ? Then it would make more sense in context of the second answer, and the general perception of the rules.

Edited by HorusEye

Perhaps his first reply " If this is referring to not rolling enough range , then yes you can spend the surge." should be read as " If this is referring to not rolling enough range , then yes you can spend the surge (increasing the range) ." ? Then it would make more sense in context of the second answer, and the general perception of the rules.

That's my understanding. If it's read as spending a fatigue recovery while range is short, then I disagree with it, as it conflicts with the other rules about misses.

What about the crossbow's (and maybe other) ability to move a target?

Could a surge be spent to move the target into range, then spend other surges? The movement would have to be to make the range, otherwise it could not be spent?

What about the crossbow's (and maybe other) ability to move a target?

Could a surge be spent to move the target into range, then spend other surges? The movement would have to be to make the range, otherwise it could not be spent?

It could be argued that moving the targeted figure into range would constitute "converting a miss into a hit," but I disagree. The crossbow allows you to move the figure, not the space, and the space is what is being targeted by the attack, not the figure. Therefore, even if you moved the figure, your attack would still miss the declared targeted space, and it wouldn't be a hit. Therefore, you shouldn't be able to spend the crossbow surge unless you've already got the range.

Also, think about it thematically- my attack fell short, but moved you into range so that it actually hit you as opposed to oh look, my attack went extra far! You got hit!

Edited by Zaltyre

It could be argued that moving the targeted figure into range would constitute "converting a miss into a hit," but I disagree. The crossbow allows you to move the figure, not the space, and the space is what is being targeted by the attack, not the figure. Therefore, even if you moved the figure, your attack would still miss the declared targeted space, and it wouldn't be a hit. Therefore, you shouldn't be able to spend the crossbow surge unless you've already got the range.

Also, think about it thematically- my attack fell short, but moved you into range so that it actually hit you as opposed to oh look, my attack went extra far! You got hit!

I agree with Zaltyre. Ruling the other way would allow for strange things such as the Treasure Hunter's whip potentially being able to strike at targets which are three spaces away by spending a surge to allow the whip to move the target into reach range as well! While pretty badass, it doesn't make too much sense thematically either.

Edited by Charmy