This is notion that dogfacedboyuk1 actually sparked for me... what if all adventurers started with even stats (let's stay 3 for Strength, Craft, and Fate) and had no special abilities? Another option might be to give say 9 points to players to distribute among Starting Strength, Craft, and Fate... and max of 5 applied to any one of them.

Abilities would be gained by new "Ability" cards through actually accomplishing or doing or encountering something successfully multiple times. All other aspects of the game would remain unaffected and would still work with standard players. If someone, say, still drew a Guide follower, then they wouldn't need to spend time trying to get the either the Forestwise or Cragwise abilities (see below).

It this takes off as a notion for a fun alternative in playing Talisman, I'll look at creating the necessary components in the near future. So have at it!!! Here's some simple examples to start with (card titles subject to change), and others should join in with suggestions for other Abilities as found on the character cards (staring with only the standard characters first).

Forestwise : If you have successfully encountered the Forest three times where you were never "Lost" you gain this ability. You now may choose not to roll in the Forest.

Cragwise: If you have successfully encountered the Crags three times where you were never "Lost" you gain this ability. You now may choose not to roll in the Crags.

Chasmwise: If you have successfully encountered the Chasm three times without a loss, you gain this ability. You now may add +1 when rolling in the Chasm.

Spellcraft: If you have successfully gained and used three Spells with success each time, you gain this ability, but it may only be taken while in the Ruins or Runes spaces. You now always have 1 Spell if your Craft allows.

Magecraft: If you have successfully gained and used nine Spells with success each time, you gain this ability. You now always have your full compliment of Spells according to your Craft.

Fated: If you have successfully used a Fate point to advantage five times, you gain this ability. Your Starting Fate has increased by 1

Battlewise: Discard 21 points of Strength trophies without taking Strength points and you gain this ability. You may roll two dice in Battle and choose the higher roll.

Pyschic: Discard 21 points of Craft trophies without taking Craft points and you gain this ability. You may now engage other adventurers and Enemies with both Strength and Craft in Psychic Combat by choice.

Spiritwise: Discard 21 points of Craft trophies without taking Craft points and you gain this ability. You may roll two dice in Psychic Combat and choose the higher roll.

Obviously there's some problems with recordkeeping here that could get too messy for most wanting a pre-made powerhouse character. Other options for mechanics are welcome, but should be centered on acquiring abilities based on repeated actions, encounters, etc. where some criteria of "success" is involved. In addition, it might be best if the number of cards for each ability was not the same. Certain more potent abilities might have fewer cards available, and its first come first serve. As said, have at it if this notion sounds amusing.

As said, this is for alternative play and also not intended to be a additions for standard characters. Obviously some alternative generic character cards might be needed as well. Although...

I could imagine this being used in conjunction with standard characters, though the cost for adding additional abilities to such should be even higher than suggested here. I think dogfacedboyuk1's way for this option is better if your look HERE .

ADDITIONAL... as seen above, certain abilities might have a WHERE, or even a WHEN to be acquired in addition to a HOW... especially for the more potent ones.

JC, It is certainly an interesting notion and I would think worthy of some time invested into it to see what you can put together. The more expansions out there the better! A customisable character will be very appealing to many, especially to the RPG camp. perhaps though each character could choose at least one base skill and may develop their others through the different methods you listed. Would you also create a race typefor people to choose? I myself have not played RPG's for a long time and the thrill of creating the character is probably lost to me against the easy and neat stereotypical characters of the Talisman game and its expansions all ready to play. I am very much in love with this boardgame as I think it is so perfectly balanced and it hits all the right notes for me with the way it does stuff. I think for me personally I like the stereotype presets, so with this idea of my own - ToT a little flavour can be added without thinking too far out of the box. Your idea adds a lot more further "complex" dimensions and changes the game mechanics completely which will certainly appeal to RPG'ers and get closer to the notion of "pure adventuring" you are going for with this idea.

With the Tasks of Thantalos I was looking for a way for characters to expand on their own skills so they are less one dimensional, the achievement of completing a task will throw the balance of the game in various interesting ways. There will also be limits to them however and how time consuming they will be will need to b adjusted to keep the power balance in check, so I think there is a bit of additional thought required than I first imagined with this one. I think that I will have to be careful with some restrictions, I don't want the stereotypes broken beyond believabilty - a priest with assassination skills may sound far out, but could allude to a member of a militant, secret arm of a holy order dedicated to purging heresy! An acrobatic troll however may be a little ludicrous. I'll need to think on this one, but hopefully I'll produce an interesting expansion with it when Nightfall is done.

dfb

I can see some of your points, but any attempt to lean back towards standard characters and more random draws and inequities in what players get means it's actually a waste of time. That's just more the same ol' same ol' and we should just go play the same ol' characters instead.

And after all, its just a fanciful notion. I honestly didn't hold out hope that most players would want to try it pure and clean. It's the videogame age, where all want to step on stage like superheroes and archvillains, never having to work for it. And that's okay... but certainly not worth my time in re-creating the wheel, so speak, in any minor ways herein.

I think 9 points to spread around is still an edge... maybe 10. Choosing the distribution reflects what kind of aptitude the player wants to have in the game. Take away all the shortcut abilities (some of them utterly nonsensical), and such raw, blank characters would still have an edge on those standard ones in a fight... let alone in accessing the Adventure deck. I'm afraid I disagree with giving them anything to start; better they start on a level playing field, and have the abilities something that can be acquired in varied short order by actually getting in ther and "playing."

A character called the Commoner, perhaps several of them for this expansion. The only difference would be the art on the card. They would all start in the Village and all would start Neutral.

Ending your move in the City and Village would give you the additional option of drawing a 'skill' card, maybe a few Adventure cards that give them some as well.

An interesting concept I think. You may just need to make the characters and skills they can gain.

JC, well I personally do love the basic way in which talisman handles characters and I'll look forward to tackling ToT ideas to add some slants on it, but I reckon I will be needing some ideas and help with that as I will need to make the tasks varied and there will need to be a lot of them. A bit of collaboration with everyone on these boards who would like to chip in would help get the ball rolling when I start doing it. I will also have to develop a set of interesting skills in order to make it worthwhile performing the tasks. And working out what characters are allowed to gain what skills does seem a little nightarish! You mentioned a point about creating more of the same 'ol, well I dont think thats necessarily a bad thing if its done right. I was thinking along the lines of developing skills that reflect the other character types in a "multiclass" type way in order to affect people strategies. This could be done by allowing people who sucessfully pass a task to learn an ability that already exists (boring) or learn something new and interesting. Perhaps an example of gaining an assassins skill could go along the lines of collecting herb tokens that are scattered around the board , possibly randomly with maybe one or two placed by enemy players for "extra nastiness" with the resulting skill being something like - "a sucessful poisoning attempt causes the enemy character to lose 1 life. They must make their way to the chapel and upon passing it, stop there in order to recover. They lose their following turn." It's not such a radical change in thinking as your method, granted but some more of the same could work.

I do like the specific ideas you list as a way to develop those skills and if I may I would like to pinch that mechanic for a couple of the tasks. I think Feldrik's idea is also a good one, and it could combine well with your method for developing skills with just one player getting to develop his skills as he or she pleases. Anyway, I would certainly like to see what you come up with for it. An expansion or two in this area of skills would be a great addition to the current range of homebrew expansions. In fact I have just thought of a few more ideas.........

dfb

I am thinking it through a little more... and maybe a more whimsical twist might be another option to add to the previous.

In addition to "earning" abilities, there might be a chance to draw one now and then... but not at the beginning. And certain spaces would be a good notion, though I might combine it with a necessary roll against the characters attributes as they are. There are enough pure freebies in the game already.

Perhaps upon landing in particular non-draw spaces where something must be overcome might be a possibility. Success would lead to adding up one's Natural Craft and Strength (no object or follower bonuses allowed). Then a 2D6 roll, if below the total, would allow a random draw from the Abilities deck.

In addition, I'm thinking of a Foibles deck. These would be some amusing deficits one has to draw from when upon a catastrophic roll using Strength or Craft. Off the cuff, imagine any Battle or Psychic Combat where one is defeated soundly, or an obstacle (such as in my ITB expansion) must be overcome by a roll against Strength or Craft. Sever failure (by 4+?) would make a "bumpkin" draw from the Foibles deck. Each foible would have a way to get rid of it by "doing" something. Example:

POSSIBLE FOIBLES

Gutless: Each time you land on a space with another bumpkin or upturned Enemy, you must roll 2D6 below your total Natural Strength and Craft. Fail, and you run away. Retreat 1 space the way you came. You may not draw any cards on that space but otherwise must face anything else in that space. WHEN YOU'VE SUCCEEDED IN 3 GUTLESS ROLLS, YOU MAY DISCARD THIS FOIBLE.

Dumbfounded: Each time you face an opponent in Battle or Psychic Combat, roll 2D6 against your Starting Craft and Strength. Fail, and you choke for an instant— take -1 in that Battle of Psychic Combat. WHEN YOU'VE SUCCEEDED IN 3 DUMBFOUNDED ROLLS, YOU MAY DISCARD THIS FOIBLE.

Luckless : Each time you face a space with a roll for what happens, you roll two dice. The player to your left chooses which roll you have to take. You may use Fate after the fact if you wish. SACRIFICE 2 FATE AT ANY TIME TO DISCARD THIS FOIBLE.

Bullish: You think you can bully your way through anything. In Psychic Combat or rolls against Craft, you must use Starting Strength only as if it were your Current Craft (Craft Bonuses for Objects and Followers may be used). IF YOU SUCCEED 3 TIMES IN SPITE OF THIS, YOU MAY DISCARD THIS FOIBLE.

Cocky: You think you can think your way out of anything. In Battle or any roll against Strength, you must use Starting Craft ony as if it were you Current Strength (Strength Bonuses for Objects and Followers may be used). IF YOU SUCCEED 3 TIMES IN SPITE OF THIS, YOU MAY DISCARD THIS FOIBLE.

Tightfisted: Now your so worried about healing, you won't spend more than 1G for anything but healing. IF YOU HAVE MORE THAN 4 LIVES, YOU MAY DISCARD THIS FOIBLE WHEN YOU GAIN ANOTHER LIFE. IF YOU HAVE LESS THAN 4 LIVES, YOU MAY DISCARD THIS FOIBLE WHEN YOU HEAL OR GAIN TO 4 LIVES OR MORE.

These are all obviously just notions and subject to adjustment. The key here is to always connect things to "doing" something. There are enougth automatics and freebies already in the game.

OTHER POSSIBLE RULINGS....

Death to all Bumpkins

If you lose your last life, you drop everything you have, including all gained Strength and Craft. You wake up in the Tavern with nothing but a gold, thinking it was all a dream; you're just that naive, aren't you. And off you go again.

Alignment

At the start of the game, all players must agree whether or not they choose their own Alignment. If even one player disagrees, all bumpkins must start as Neutral.

Starting Space

All bumpkins start in the Tavern. Afterall, where else do such fools think all adventures begin?

Endgame

[i'm think there should be some optional ones to play versus the typical CoC, likely by random draw from a small assortment. Once a card is drawn, that is the endgame no matter what. Some possibilities come to mind...]

Crown of the Bumpkin King

Keep this hidden and only show it to another bumpkin when you encounter one. +3 Craft & Strength; +0, 1, or 2 to movement rolls; and take 2 Lives in Battle or Psychic Combat if you do not take a Gold or an Object. You may wait for other bumpkins to come to you, or leave and go after them. The Crown is fair game for the taking by normal means, but once it is in play, any bumpkin losing all of its lives is out of the game.

The Bumpkin King

Place this card face up for all to see. He always has the same Current Craft and Strength as his opponent, but with +3 on both! He fights by either Psychic Combat or Battle (as chosen by the player on your left ). If he wins, he takes 2 Lives from you, or can take Gold, Followers, and Objects and use them (as chosen by the player on your right ). First one to kill the Bumpkin King wins the game.

The Pot-Metal Crown

Keep this hidden and only show it to another bumpkin when you encounter one. The only thing it does is allow you to add 0, 1, or 2 to movement rolls, but no one else will no that ... at first. You may wait for other bumpkins to come to you or leave and go after them. The Crown is fair game for the taking by normal means, but once it is in play, any bumpkin losing all of its lives is out of the game. Last bumpkin alive, with the crown or not, wins the game by default.

The Crown of Cowards

Keep this hidden and only show it to another bumpkin when you encounter one. The only thing it does is allow you to add 0, 1, or 2 to movement rolls, but whenever you trounce another bumpkin in Battle or Psychic Combat, it must take a Foible Card regardless of how much it lost by. You may wait for other bumpkins to come to you or leave and go after them. The Crown is fair game for the taking by normal means, but once it is in play, any bumpkin losing all of its lives is out of the game. Last bumpkin alive, with the crown or not, wins the game by default.

The Horrific Monster

Strength 12, Lives 4. Place this card face up for all to see. Anyone who faces the Monster must roll 2D6 vs Strength on its turn; any who fail must take a Foible card before attempting to kill the Monster. First one to kill the monster wins the game.

The Boogieman

Craft 12, Lives 4. Place this card face up for all to see. Anyone who faces the Boogieman must roll 2D6 vs Craft on its turn; any who fail must take a Foible card before attempting to kill the Boogieman . First one to kill the Boogieman wins the game.

The Wizard's Staff

The Wizard is Strength 8, Craft 10, Lives 4, and the staff allows him to always have 3 Spells (managed by the player on your right). He may attack by Battle or Psychic Combat (as chosen by the player on your left). First one to kill the Wizard takes the staff, always has 3 Spells regardless of their Craft, and can choose from 1 to 6 for how many spaces it moves. The Staff is fair game for the taking by normal means, but once it is in play, any bumpkin losing all of its Lives is out of the game. Last bumpkin alive, with the staff or not, wins the game by default.

[Any other notions or notes or suggestions? Or is this too much nonsense versus basic attribute choice and having at it? Obviously this is a deviation from my original notion and may or may not strike up any interest.]

I really like the foiables concept, a burden caused by inepitude is a nice touch and allows for some additional character based depth. I like this type of idea because its simple to do but adds alot more variation to the game. I was thinking myself of including a couple of "get out of jail free" type cards to include in an adventure deck. To represent some instant " dumb luck" - both good and bad , an example would be to avoid turning into a toad (although I was thinking of a magic object along these lines in the Night Fall Expansion - "Ring of the Frog Prince" - This ring will prevent you from being turned into a toad. After 1 use the ring becomes useless but may be sold at the taver for 1G). Another one could be an injury card. Your character has hurt their leg and movement is affected and perhaps a penalty for spaces like the chasm for say 2 turns. A foibles deck is definately something I would use in a custom game.

dfb

And for injuries... the same could be done (though there aren't a lot of places or a lot of game mechanics to account for them). But certainly the Chasm would be one place for say a dozen cards from minor to major injuries on a bad roll there. Or such a deck could be created, then suggestions in documentation on where and how to use it according to multiple squares or catastrophic failiure in battle. The downside is that the way players now think of Talisman too often (like a slot machine mixed with an FPS), they aren't likely to use anything that gets in the way of pounding on each other and hoarding up freebies....

Unless perhaps injuries occur when they pound on each other ... then at least its like blowing someone away in a deathmatch. Instead of waiting for them to spawn, they're at least impeded: minimized movement (which can be used to advantage in Talisman), missing a turn, temporary reduction in Strength or Craft, loss of an extra life... etc.

The other advantages to the Foibles being a separate deck is that the randomness of the draw is balanced in that a card is drawn only for "doing" something that went very badly. It also means the Foibles and their comedy can be set aside so that the original concept of Pure Adventuring can still be played.

I'm going to hold off actually making the Foibles deck until more ideas are generated that are

1. linked to doing something (or failing) to get them,
2. linked to ways to do something to get rid of them, and
3. linked to actual play mechanics and game activities that are somewhat rational.

I think even a couple of the ones above, though MAYBE amusing, might need some tweaking. And the endgames, though very standard and familiar for play aren't really all that interesting in some cases.

What if every player started out as a frog, and you had to survive as a frog until you encounter the princess. Rather than having the princess be a card though, the princess could be represented on the board by one of the female figures, and controlled like the Reaper. You get to move her every time you roll a 1.

I do prefer a challenging game, but within the standard or expanded mechanics to do something. Starting off as a toad isn't either of these. It's more artificially enforced effects, and right from the start (?!). Might be fun for others as a one-timed novelty, but it wouldn't be worth any work for cards, etc., from anyone working on expansion... especially the one we're discussing herein.

Lars, you could use that as a one off custom game type, not sure I d want to play that variation myself as it will be a slow starting game to something that takes ages to play anyway, but you could come up with some kind of variant based around that I guess.

Regarding the injuries, the chasm would be an obvious place to suffer but as the board has the results printed on I think a chasm type adventure card may be better where if the player fails the injuries come into play which could be kept simple - either -1 movement, craft or strength depending on the situation - a standoff in combat for example could led to both players being injured and -1 strength which could be healed at the chapel by missing a turn upon that space if you wanted to include some chance for the player. A standoff psychic combat would result in loss of craft. I am using a loss of craft mechanic in Night Fall for various failed situations to try and get the notion of horror etc across. You could hae a few injury cards for the players to keep as a reminder.

dfb