Right now I feel like I'm being ganged up on for having a preference and requesting my preference.

Sorry you feel that way. Perhaps people can stop being quite so forceful in some of their comments.

But you kinda have a hat trick of old and somewhat heated topics here.

Pilot and upgrade packs is a often debated and sometimes heated discussion around here. EU hate while sometimes justified is also quite often a heated topic around here.

Lastly there's a hint of "if you don't do this the game will go under" in your post. So people are reacting at least in part to old and heated debates and not just what you've posted.

They already support both with aces packs so quit complaining.

I'm not complaining. Jesus. The title of this thread is "What do you want to see?" and I answered that question. And it was followed by: "What you want to see is crazy!" and "You're no true scotsman!"

Anyone who wants to make a business argument for not making pilot card packs that's fine. I can't guarantee that they're going to keep making Aces packs, and if they don't, pilot packs are the logical alternative. They may not be likely, but that's what I want.

Right now I feel like I'm being ganged up on for having a preference and requesting my preference. It's almost like: "Your fogey OT ways are not welcome here! It is only those that embrace all of Star wars are welcome here!"

That's not true, however, to make the ignorant statement that the EU is bad is silly. It is like saying saying, you taste an apple, and there are hundreds of different types of apples, but you don't like this one, and you think all apples are bad. Unless you truly have read most/all that the EU contained, you can't make a blind statement saying it is disgusting. You have also been speaking as if you represent a large demographic which clearly isn't the case.

That's not true, however, to make the ignorant statement that the EU is bad is silly.

That's not really true, opinions don't have to be based on facts or meaningful amounts of data. If I eat an apple and don't like it, different types of apples are unlikely to appeal to me. It's not like I'll find an apple that tastes like a banana.

The opinion that the EU sucks if you haven't ready any of it may be an ignorant opinion, but that doesn't make it invalid. Lots of people have things they don't dislike due to preconceived notions, and trying what ever it is won't change their mind because they've already made their mind up.

That's not true, however, to make the ignorant statement that the EU is bad is silly.

That's not really true, opinions don't have to be based on facts or meaningful amounts of data. If I eat an apple and don't like it, different types of apples are unlikely to appeal to me. It's not like I'll find an apple that tastes like a banana.

The opinion that the EU sucks if you haven't ready any of it may be an ignorant opinion, but that doesn't make it invalid. Lots of people have things they don't dislike due to preconceived notions, and trying what ever it is won't change their mind because they've already made their mind up.

The problem is making the blanket statement, EU is bad is silly. I can understand saying you don't like certain things in the EU, but unless you have read everything released (which I doubt anyone that makes those statements have), it is an inaccurate assumption. I'm ok with people saying they don't really like e.g. Defenders, and found them really silly, but to say anything that comes from EU is awful, is just flat out wrong if you haven't read/played/whatever'd everything in the EU.

This is one of the solutions I proposed in a recent thread on what we would like to see for new ships. I don't think we need anymore ships. I think we need OPTIONS for the ships we already have.

Oneway: Here's a specific reason for you: I only like Classic Wars. I despise the EU. My opinion is not uncommon among fans. If they don't produce pilot cards, I'm frankly not buying anymore. I have little interest in EU stuff. So, if there are any marketers listening, they need to understand that many Star Wars fans are classic-oriented and hate the EU. If their objective is to keep the game going and sell more stuff, pilot cards and base packs may be the only thing that would keep some players buying.

That said, I think that the multi-utility concept of already purchased Y-wings potentially be useable for Scum and vice versa was a good idea.

So to each their own

BUT

I think you are a fool.

I also thing you'd find far more people enjoy the EU than the PT

In many way the EU is more star warsy than the PT

The problem is making the blanket statement, EU is bad is silly.

He didn't say it was bad, he said lots of people hate it. That is a very true statement, regardless of how much sense it makes, there are people who hate anything that comes out of the EU. Their opinion may not be rational or even educated. But opinions require neither of those things to be valid.

Most of them I'd imagine have either read some part of the EU, likely a very bad part and wrote the whole thing off. Or they've just heard bad things about it and accepted them, things like Sith Zombies and the like. Again no one has ever said that opinions have to be rational or even require much in the way of evidence.

Also someone's opinion on the EU isn't doesn't even matter to the topic at hand, of if there should be cardboard only upgrades.

He didn't say it was bad, he said lots of people hate it. That is a very true statement, regardless of how much sense it makes, there are people who hate anything that comes out of the EU. Their opinion may not be rational or even educated. But opinions require neither of those things to be valid.

But how many of them are going to also be the kind of Star Wars fan that throws a very large amount of money at a minis game with a fair chunk of the reasoning being "because Star Wars"?

At what point would you exhaust the potential of a tie fighter or x-wing just with card upgrades? There is only so much you can do

We are probably very far from exhausting the imaginations of the game's designers.

Not to mention the fact that you cant exhaust a resource if you don't use it in the first place.

Additionally, as mentioned above also, aces packs become harder and harder to justify purchasing when you already have enough of said ship to run the maximum in a 100 point list (or even enough for epic as some have) I have no need for a 5th X-Wing, B-Wing or interceptor, yet at some point in the future the current pilots will become stale and new pilots would be welcome without having to buy extra ships I cant use.

Older ships without fresh releases of new pilots see very little play (especially wave 1 dust collectors the Y-Wing and Tie Advanced) compared to their brethren with newer pilots and many more options. This is more typically for Tournament play as im sure there are plenty of fanboys out there still playing thier Tie advanced's (and losing probably).

Essentially Aces are "Pilot" upgrade packs as they release different pilots for already released models. The repaint is merely window dressing to increase production value.

Now if you look at every pack each pilot card and upgrade card can be played with the model. That is probably the strength of their marketing and distribution model. You don't get stuck with incompatible items or products that you need to buy additional items in order to use them. A "pilot" only booster pack would go against this model as not everyone will have all the models needed for it.

Now Aces is a good way in getting different pilots and yes to only have 2 unique pilots per ship seems restrictive (take a look at the Tie Advanced), however I agree with what Tom Vassel said in his review on Rebel Aces is that he hopes that is not the only way FFG goes with introducing new models.

Now I said this before but I would like FFG to release cinematic themed packs (death star trench comes to mind) which has a scenario based out of the movie (as well as a few others for better production value) as well as the repaints of already released models with new pilot cards and new upgrades to boot. Still give it time, it doesn't look like the popularity of X-wing is going to be in decline anytime soon.

Repaint Ace packs are their answer to this as it helps new players too.

I think this is the best way to go.

-Cal

EDIT: I'd personally prefer to see ace packs sold as singles and not two ships.

I think the problem that puts most people off the EU is its so incredibly inconsistantly patchy

Some of it is brilliant, some of it is just very poorly concieved and poorly written tosh.

For me I dont even *consider* some things EU like phantoms, defenders and HWKs.... mainly because they came out in computer games that were heavily controlled by LFL and clearly going along with what georges vision was.

Some of the novels have to me 'questionable' plots.

Some of the early star wars comics (the ones i read in the 80s where the second strip was 'power pack' - man that was dire - ) which were US imports were pretty awful but some of the more 'adult' themed graphic novels are pretty cool.

Personally I like galactic civil war era stuff and really liked the 'dark times' comics i've read (vader just starting to cut out a legend for himself) and 'blood ties' (boba fett back story). The 'legacy' stuff is weak for me, im just not that interested in the jedi order being conned and destroyed *again* by the sith but 1000 years later.

Quite like crimson empire though.

See what i mean, thats all EU... some of its great some of its awful.

But if the first stuff you read is awful it puts you off.

And again.. until i read a load of graphic novels and got to 'know' more of the eu characters i too felt that most eu stuff was 'toss'.

I only put up with phantoms and defenders because 'tie fighter' was such a good game!

Personally i'd like to see a 'remounts' pack.

Essentially a pack of pilot cards and matching chits that put pilots known to fly more than one sort of ship in the seat of the others.

So in the pack you might get Keyan Farlander cards and chit bases for him in an A wing, X wing and his famed Y wing

Likewise Luke gets his E wing

Be nice to see Howlrunner get the option of an Interceptor or a Defender

Airan Cracken as gunner crew for the falcon (got a feeling this might already exist) as it makes more sense than a general in a z95.

etc etc.

Yes, this. There was a lot of rage about Corran not flying an X-Wing when he was revealed, and it would be cool to see some of these guys fly other ships. I'd also be interested in seeing new versions of the pilots. You know, like a different Luke Skywalker that has a new ability. I don't think they'd sell them without models though, since much of the cost goes into developing the game so they may as well go that extra bit and release the new content with models.

I would love more repaints to go with either of the above ideas. A green X-Wing with a new Corran Horn would sell like nuts, I bet.

Got to admit, I do want a green striped Corran X-wing. X-wings are quite low on the list of ships that need new pilots though: the TIE bomber and TIE advanced are the ones at the top of the list.

Essentially Aces are "Pilot" upgrade packs as they release different pilots for already released models. The repaint is merely window dressing to increase production value.

True, and they may be useful for new people. But even then you get to a point where more models are not needed by people. I own 6 X-Wings right now, 2 from core sets, 1 from the GR-75 and 3 expansions. Now partly that's my OCD kicking in, because 5 X-Wings is wrong!

But if they came out with a aces pack with X-Wings in it... I'd have to consider if the pilots I'm getting is worth the price. Sure repainted X-Wings are nice, but I don't need 8 X-Wings and can paint my own for that matter.

So you will reach a point of diminishing returns, because most people don't need more models and so are only buying the pack for the sake of the cards, and at some point those cards aren't worth the price. So they can't just keep making more and more Aces or even expansion packs for existing models.

A "pilot" only booster pack would go against this model as not everyone will have all the models needed for it.

This is true, it does seem to run contrary to their methods. But that doesn't mean it won't happen, just is unlikely to happen until they see aces packs not selling very well.

I love FFG. I think they are much better than certain other companies (Wizkids). But I know they are my drug dealer. With the way this game is growing, and the various stock issues, I can easily see why they would justify rereleasing old models. It just screws with the older collectors. I mean, ask those that still had Descent 1.0 stuff when they started to release the Heroes & Monsters packs, with new stats from the conversion kit and a new mission. They will make us buy, and buy, and buy...

It just screws with the older collectors.

But, there is a point of saturation in which the vast majority of people playing X-Wing will no longer need or want some of the models because they have enough.

Perhaps the game will keep growing enough that true saturation will never really be achieved, that the "birth rate" for lack of a better term will mean there's always enough new players that aces packs will make sense, and sell well...

But that seems to be a bit of wishful thinking because there just aren't that many people who play these kinds of games to keep that kind of growth up for years... Even if X-Wing was the number one miniature game in the market, the market just isn't that big.

That's why GW does what it does, it's not just simple greed, it's a need to keep producing things that people will buy, because there's only so many people who will buy their stuff.

GW at least has the advantage that 15 different Hero's might be something someone wants. But at some point most people will have as many X-Wings or Tie Bombers as they want. At that point how many X-Wing Aces packs can they reasonably sell?