man..I go on a week's vacation it's on page 7...now page 19! What the hell happened, and are those 12 extra pages worth it or is it just **** waving all the **** time?

I'd go for the latter. Maybe it's about who gets the final word? Who knows.

My current character's main weapon is an Assault Pulser with a Hybrid Combat Sight/Battle Scope, Angled Grip, Redlight Targeter, Accelerator Rails, Quick-Change Front Secondary Magazine, Echo Dispenser, Magnetron Booster and Ammo Fabricator. I wouldn't touch an autogun with another man's ten feet pole .

I hate to rain on your parade but RAW weapons are limited to 4 modifications, only 1 of which can be a scope.

And concerning that assault pulsers that grants +41 BS..is it bullcrap or is it real? Because really, going about with this gun all over the place must be boring for the other players, or impossible to do with being a rail gun for one and having 34546 pounds of bells and whisltes on it...

In the current party, I'm the only one who fights his opponents eye-to-eye, because the sniper uses a sniper rifle with beyond-horizon attack capabilities, while the main combat character favors indirect attacks with intelligent/seeker grenades and remote-controlled weapon drones (he is a very... resourceful person). So it is usually me who gets bored during fights, but it is okay. I'm just a Sage with a shiny gun, after all .

My current character's main weapon is an Assault Pulser with a Hybrid Combat Sight/Battle Scope, Angled Grip, Redlight Targeter, Accelerator Rails, Quick-Change Front Secondary Magazine, Echo Dispenser, Magnetron Booster and Ammo Fabricator. I wouldn't touch an autogun with another man's ten feet pole .

I hate to rain on your parade but RAW weapons are limited to 4 modifications, only 1 of which can be a scope.

I like your sarcasm !

man..I go on a week's vacation it's on page 7...now page 19! What the hell happened, and are those 12 extra pages worth it or is it just **** waving all the **** time?

I'd go for the latter. Maybe it's about who gets the final word? Who knows.

I gained several interesting tweaks and adjustments for our home game from this thread.

Why did they removed money from the game? I don't... I don't even...

Why did FFG made this game in yet another sector? Calixis wasn't really fleshed out IMO but it had some cool ideas, like Eloheloth, the Tyrant Star, Haarlock and the like. Of course it suffered from having an army of Inquisitors lurking there for some reason (most sectors of the Imperium have a couple of them at best) but overall it was promising. So FFG decides to scrap it and create a completely new and bland system for our enjoyment. Good job.

The classes are a clusterf**k. Who came up with names like Assassin, Chirurgeon, Desperado, Hierophant, Mystic, Sage, Seeker, Warrior? This is the 41st millenium, not DnD, They could have been a bit more creative.

Graviton guns. For no-name accolytes. Then again the 1st edition did gave you a chance to wield Daemon Hammers and Conversion Beamers.

Last but not least, you can now play an Inquisitor. Jesus Christ, really? So now every game turns into player-GM argument struggle over what his character can and can't do?

Point of order: they removed thrones because they didn't want people counting coins, it could be abstracted into a similar system like Only War or Rogue Trader.

Yet Another? The Calaxis is one sector, it's just next to a bunch of stuff. The new sector is a similar story, they explored all they wanted to in there and moved on. They didn't scrap Calaxis, it still exists.

Who comes up with those names? 40k comes up with those names, it's flavor.

Graviton Guns are near unique if I remember right, they aren't for no names.

Inquisitors are easy to deal with if you know what makes them tick and the actual limits of their capabilities. Ascension describes this well. It also takes a lot to become an inquisitor.

I'm just curious if you've read the book and not took glancing blows across it.

Calixis sector felt half finished. It's like they've started all those plots, like Komus and Serrated Query and then left them hanging, saying "well you can fill the gaps yourself". That's just lazy.

Those names could have been easily 40K-fied, but no, they had to go with generics. Desperado? Seriously? It feels like something from WoD that 40K.

I really think that weapons like Graviton Guns, Mass Converters and the like should be off limits to people, who are basically scum taken from the streets and pressed into service of an Inquisitor. Their lives are worthless but a piece of tech that's impossible to reproduce is not.

Ascension is about high level characters. In DH 2 it is way easier to reach the level needed to play an Inquisitor. I personally can't think of a scenario in which a player with a rosette around his neck can't do anything he wants. But that's the general problem with Inquisitors in 40K> They simply have too much power fluff wise. I always wondered why there are even High Lords of Terra. The Inquisition can do anything it wants and no one can tell them f-off. I don't like that and it works against the games atmosphere. After all how many threats from you Inquisitor can you take, before you'll think to yourself: screw it. He can kill me. I don't care. My players where at that point, when we reached the end of our DH adventures. They simply stoped caring about Globus Varack telling them that they suck.

Yeah I've read book. Don't like to flame without a good cause.

The problem with actually having monetary value for stuff is that, once selling stuff starts having value, odds are players will start looting. I just have a hard time imagining a bunch of acolytes (or worse, an Inquisitor) asking around for customers for the 10 shotguns and 5 sets of Flak armor they have acquired in their last mission.

I had that in my games. One player was caring 5 sets of flak armour on his back, like he was a chinese street marketer. But he could do that, gamewise. What could I do? Tell him that the armour rebels and dosen't let him carry itself?

For those that don't like the RAW........

1.Why did you buy the book when you knew basically what you were getting with the revised OW rules?

2.Name me ONE rpg out there that doesn't have its flaws?I haven't found the magical unicorn of RPG's yet so personally i tailor it to my needs.

3.Is the game that unplayable for you?

I'm not starting any arguements.I'm really interested in hearing some responses from the naysayer's concerning my questions.Looking forward to some peoples answers in particular.Thanks.

1. I've read it at my friend's place. I sure as hell won't buy this "masterpiece" of RPGs.

2. There is none. My two favorite RPG games are WFRP 2Ed (the less I say about the 3rd edition the better) and oWoD games like VtM and HtR. They all have flaws, sure. But they are not game breaking and certainly don't overshadow their good parts. Just like nn case of both Dark Heresy 1 and 2.

3. Bot of them are. I can't think of myself running a DH 1 game, unless it would be narrative only with dice rolls covering the social skills alone. Even then it would be as fun as having your nether regions scraped with dulled razor wire.

You've ignored what I've been saying a couple times, so I'm not going to go over this any more until you address the facts that 1) it is equally likely that another cheaper skill will be more or equally needed than an expensive one as the other way around, meaning that it isn't useful to include the assumption that the expensive one will be strongly wanted; and 2) the point of the game system that remains constant is the goal for players to try gaining as muh control over it as they can by spending xp. Please address or refute these points.

1) If both skills are equally necessary, then why do you propose that the character will only purchase one of them? The character will, XP permitting, purchase both. The cheaper one is likely to be purchased first, but not exclusively.

2) The point of the game system is to give an engine for resolving activities. XP expenditure aids that resolution, but any given expenditure is unlikely to do so for the whole, only for a particular piece. How much that piece matters varies considerably.

1) Well, if we go under the assumption that all skills are equally necessary (because the times that one is more important than te other cancel each other out), you end up with skills that are cheaper and equally necessary that should all be bought first. Xp is a limited resource, so you won't be able to buy everything, thus making the most expensive choice the worst one and last chosen.

2) Xp is a tangible reward system for players that allows them to gain more power over the game system. XP as implemented is not a mechanic for to simulate learning or anything like that, except in niche circumstances. Of course spending xp on 1 thing won't affect your whole experience, but it does affect some of the experience, hence why it should be paid attention to. The fact that some xp buys will be so variable is why we average then out in order to actually work with the system and analyze it.

2) the point of the game system that remains constant is the goal for players to try gaining as muh control over it as they can by spending xp.

I always assumed the goal for players is to create a character they're having fun with, and the goal for the system is to simulate this character's interactions with the world of make-believe in a consistent manner.

The xp system is absolutely not about simulating interactions with the world. It's about rewarding players with more control over the game, something that is assumed to make te game more fun. And if you're saying the xp system is about some characters being more gifted in some areas than others, then I'd say that the old DH did this almost equally as well other than the lack of guidelines for elite advances. The rudimentary ability to create your own class in DH2 is not very well implemented due to the opaqueness of information it provides the player.

Calixis sector felt half finished. It's like they've started all those plots, like Komus and Serrated Query and then left them hanging, saying "well you can fill the gaps yourself". That's just lazy.

Those names could have been easily 40K-fied, but no, they had to go with generics. Desperado? Seriously? It feels like something from WoD that 40K.

I really think that weapons like Graviton Guns, Mass Converters and the like should be off limits to people, who are basically scum taken from the streets and pressed into service of an Inquisitor. Their lives are worthless but a piece of tech that's impossible to reproduce is not.

Ascension is about high level characters. In DH 2 it is way easier to reach the level needed to play an Inquisitor. I personally can't think of a scenario in which a player with a rosette around his neck can't do anything he wants. But that's the general problem with Inquisitors in 40K> They simply have too much power fluff wise. I always wondered why there are even High Lords of Terra. The Inquisition can do anything it wants and no one can tell them f-off. I don't like that and it works against the games atmosphere. After all how many threats from you Inquisitor can you take, before you'll think to yourself: screw it. He can kill me. I don't care. My players where at that point, when we reached the end of our DH adventures. They simply stoped caring about Globus Varack telling them that they suck.

Yeah I've read book. Don't like to flame without a good cause.

Call it what you will they gave plot seeds and didn't want to railroad GMs into answers. They described what they wanted to and left it at that. It's as finished as they wanted it, the majority of planets are described if I remember correctly.

40k is a mish mash universe you will see a lot of generic stuff across the board. Sorry they didn't impress you? They're generic because they describe a common role the person takes.

That's what you think, not what they think obviously. Everyone starts from somewhere, it's rare enough as it is for someone to be born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

You only gain 3-5 influence per adventure, on average it's arount 12-15000 xp for inquisitor level, that's not easy. Just because you can't think of a scenario doesn't mean there isn't one. The high lords speak for the Emperor in his stead, they can tell the big I to frak off. High ranking members of various adeptus have the sway necessary to make Inquisitors to think twice before doing something because of the rammifications of their actions. The Administratum for instance is someone you never want to make angry. If they don't care about Globus that's a failing on your part to portray him, if all he's doing is telling them they suck then why doesn't he just replace them?

I'm not flaming, I was legitimately curious because of some of your issues.

The high lords speak for the Emperor in his stead, they can tell the big I to frak off.

Actually, they can't, because they have an Inquisitorial Representative (a sacrosanct position) in their rank.

The high lords speak for the Emperor in his stead, they can tell the big I to frak off.

Actually, they can't, because they have an Inquisitorial Representative (a sacrosanct position) in their rank.

And he's the second most important High Lord after the representative of the Administratum I think. Maybe the Ecclesiarchy guy could be more important but dunno.

Relax, I didn't said you were flaming me or anyone else. I was talking more about myself, since my first post on this topic could be seen as a "flamy" one.

It dosen't matter to me that you need x thousnad points to get to the Inquisitor profession. You simply should not be one. Period. Same goes for DH 1. Ascension made this mistake and I was very surprised and sad that FFG made the same mistake in DH 2.

As for the respect... You know how players work? Generally I mean, most players? They HATE any form of authority over them. Whether it's a measly town guard or an Inquisitor, players will get angry when someone tells them that they can't do something or go somewhere. In DH it's taken to the extreme since A) your employers are Inquisitors and B) the Imperium is such an authocratic, caste based hellhole. Suddendly players find out that they have to put up with that crap all the time. Arbitrator tells them what to do, Skitaari on a Forgeworld tells them what to do, their Inquisitor tells them what to do and they can't say no because then they'll get fraked.

That's why I think that 40K in general is a poor material for an RPG. It's simply too restrictive and uncaring, too merciless. Sure, you can make deus ex machina all the time or pretend that your players didn't just bad mouthed someone important (my character, a guardsman, personally headbutted Marius Hax) but there's a limit on such things.

I think that says a lot more about the people you play with than it does the setting or the game. I mean Ascension was broken for loads of reasons but "character gets a badge of office" isn't one of them.

Actually, they can't, because they have an Inquisitorial Representative (a sacrosanct position) in their rank.

And he's the second most important High Lord after the representative of the Administratum I think. Maybe the Ecclesiarchy guy could be more important but dunno.

Relax, I didn't said you were flaming me or anyone else. I was talking more about myself, since my first post on this topic could be seen as a "flamy" one.

It dosen't matter to me that you need x thousnad points to get to the Inquisitor profession. You simply should not be one. Period. Same goes for DH 1. Ascension made this mistake and I was very surprised and sad that FFG made the same mistake in DH 2.

As for the respect... You know how players work? Generally I mean, most players? They HATE any form of authority over them. Whether it's a measly town guard or an Inquisitor, players will get angry when someone tells them that they can't do something or go somewhere. In DH it's taken to the extreme since A) your employers are Inquisitors and B) the Imperium is such an authocratic, caste based hellhole. Suddendly players find out that they have to put up with that crap all the time. Arbitrator tells them what to do, Skitaari on a Forgeworld tells them what to do, their Inquisitor tells them what to do and they can't say no because then they'll get fraked.

That's why I think that 40K in general is a poor material for an RPG. It's simply too restrictive and uncaring, too merciless. Sure, you can make deus ex machina all the time or pretend that your players didn't just bad mouthed someone important (my character, a guardsman, personally headbutted Marius Hax) but there's a limit on such things.

Players hate authority, but giving players the authority that they hate having over them is a bad idea because it gives them too much authority...logic.

Actually you can always tell someone that tells you to do something no, you can always do that thing in a roundabout way, you can always say yes and then just not do it. What you're saying is the consequences are harsh, which yes they are that's why it's the Imperium where an administratum scribe can lose an entire planet because of a misfiled paper.

Things in the setting having more authority than the players is a given anywhere. If someone I game with has a problem with that, I ask them if they would like to play a super hero themed game of BESM instead. Sometimes, they get the hint, sometimes, I end up running a BESM game until they complain how bored they are that they get to do everything, and then I ask them if they'd rather try something more low-key, but, sometimes, yeah, NPCs will be there to do mundane things like "enforce laws". It's not really a problem with Dark Heresy in general.

But it's why I hate gaming with kids.

I mean my pcs killed like 30 guards when the doorman said they needed an appointment with the main governmental body of the city they were in. They were then angry with me when I had a killteam capture them and violently interrogte them. Then alright with their inquisitor giving them a get out of jail free card, and angry with him because he told them that was their one and if they did it again they were going to be servitor fodder.

I mean my pcs killed like 30 guards when the doorman said they needed an appointment with the main governmental body of the city they were in. They were then angry with me when I had a killteam capture them and violently interrogte them.

Wait a minute... How could the killteam capture them if the PCs mowed down 30 guards beforehand? If the killteam had GMpowers, then maybe the problem lied elsewhere than the PCs being unable to take responsibility for their actions.

Kill Team = space marines.

Never had that problem myself, admittedly. TBF, "You won't give us an appointment, DIE!" is stuff I haven't seen since my teens...

Mistyped actually, it was a heavily armed pdf squad. They were captured because their heavy gunner got his leg shot off and he was left behind. While they did have a psyker of incredible power with them they realized the situation was going to keep escalating. They also made it to the governmental body and then a secondary terrorist attack occurred (This was in damned cities if you were curious).

The pc that started it had been having a rough night, the guard at the door saying that was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak because he hadn't gotten every little thing he'd wanted up until that point, even though he'd gotten like 80% the denied material just wasn't feasible. He simply refused to take no wait an hour or two as an answer. Admittedly he didn't ask how long it would take.

Mistyped actually, it was a heavily armed pdf squad. They were captured because their heavy gunner got his leg shot off and he was left behind .

EPIK mistake .

It dosen't matter to me that you need x thousnad points to get to the Inquisitor profession. You simply should not be one. Period. Same goes for DH 1. Ascension made this mistake and I was very surprised and sad that FFG made the same mistake in DH 2.

I agree- there just aren't mechanics built into the game that provide proper 'checks and balances' to PC Inquisitors. They either have so little authority as to make a mockery of the rosette, or they have so much authority that there is no reason for them to do anything themselves rather than sending minions to do all of the 'heavy lifting'. And what about the bureaucratic drudgery that goes along with being a member of the highest law-enforcement agency in the Imperium? Non-existent for PC Inquisitors.

My own DH1 campaign is just shy of Ascension level, and I've made it clear to my players that being promoted to Inquisitor is the 'retirement' goal of the campaign- the PC that distinguishes themselves the most will receive that honour at the end of the campaign.

I mean my pcs killed like 30 guards when the doorman said they needed an appointment with the main governmental body of the city they were in. They were then angry with me when I had a killteam capture them and violently interrogte them. Then alright with their inquisitor giving them a get out of jail free card, and angry with him because he told them that was their one and if they did it again they were going to be servitor fodder.

Where do you people find those players? I had my share of stupid ideas, but never something as crazy as "I attack the local seat of power for refusing to see me."

I mean, I know the concept of players hating authority, that's the D&D Complex, but in the DH campaigns I ran, I never had any instance of anyone hating authority or authority figures. Ignoring them, con them, use them, but never sendin'em walkin' or attacking them. The "Authority cloud" overhead is part of the universe, and the player get the chance to actually be in said cloud, or at least shielded from it partially, and can grow their own...Air of Authority.

Look at Ascension; what's Influence to you? Money yeah, but it's far, far more than a Rogue Trader's mere Profit Factor, despite being similar in nature.

Look at Ascension; what's Influence to you? Money yeah, but it's far, far more than a Rogue Trader's mere Profit Factor, despite being similar in nature.

Trust me, I informed them of the idiocy of the idea, but DH1 psykers having suppressing fire on their sides are effective forces.

Influence is, at least to me the ability for an inquisitor to throw his weight around in one way or another, whether thats personal wealth, name dropping, blackmail, threatening, or subtle assassination with an eversor assassin..

Players attacking a doorman for refusing them entry = immature players! No excuse accepted! (To be followed by TPK in my game!). How players managed to take on half a PLATOON of PDF in straight up combat is beyond me! They should have been dead right there! If the kill team managed to capture them after a stunt like that? Again, TPK in the form of public execution. Get out of jail card from Inquisitor? Only if it's to execute them himself in the most creatively painful way he can think of!

In short: Any group of players stupid enough to pull a stunt like this arguably do not belong playing a game like DH! As Deathbygrots has mentioned, This sounds like a group of teenage kids railing against the world. I've played with groups of kids but even they weren't like this! (Actually, They were one of my BETTER groups in recent memory! )

Players attacking a doorman for refusing them entry = immature players! No excuse accepted! (To be followed by TPK in my game!). How players managed to take on half a PLATOON of PDF in straight up combat is beyond me! They should have been dead right there! If the kill team managed to capture them after a stunt like that? Again, TPK in the form of public execution. Get out of jail card from Inquisitor? Only if it's to execute them himself in the most creatively painful way he can think of!

Cool story.

Any other situation yeah it would've, but we were playing the adventure module, and I wanted to finish it at that point, not explain why new acolytes appeared and an imperial city fell due to idiocy and have them miss out on the information they got at the end of the adventure. Too much work on my end at that point that would've been wasted on the party.

They made a deal with the Mirror demon to have everyone on planet forget everything that they did for his release.

Yeah, if players want to rock and roll on the doorman, then that's the style of game they chose to play. It's not immaturity, just a playstyle difference.

Also, the game system itself can encourage that kind of gameplay. When 75% of your character sheet deals with combat, you're going to be more likely to see combat as a viable solution.

I see it as more a product of the setting over the system. I mean there is only war, there are literally entire planets that are only filled with combat, heck some planets could likely be classified as weapons. There's an entire warrior church dedicated to the eradication to anything they deem different and unsavory.

People would like be just as trigger happy if they knew they worked for one of the, relatively, more sane organizations in the bureaucratic nightmare that is the Imperium as a whole.

That doesn't mean it isn't entirely enjoyable.