I don't think you read the link in the OP, and you're not accurately comprehending the argument.

It's understood, it's just disagreed with. Not only is the credit cost not small, the game already contains a system to deal with its relative rarity. In fact, the only reason the base crystals are truly rare (based on EU sources) is BECAUSE it's the empire era. Otherwise it would just be something of an oddity.

Then I'm just trying to understand why you have an issue with them having some kind of cost as far as comparison between other gear. As a GM I can make those crystals cost whatever I want or literally cover a cave floor. You are just it seems complaining about something saying it should be a certain way when it literally does not have to be that way because (here's the kicker) it's your choice how the rules are represented in your game or talk to your GM if you have that issue.

The cost is there so we can compare it to other gear within the game. I really can't comprehend how you are continuing to argue against that.

I believe it's because there are really only two "Magical" items in F&D/AoR/EotE; Lightsabers and Holocrons and neither one of these should ever be available at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe like we find in games such a D&D. You can argue that they aren't technically magical but they really do fill that role as far a items go in these systems. What whafrog and I, if I may, don't want to see is the commodification of these essentially narrative devices.

People buy and sell artifacts all the time. Especially when they have no idea what they've got. "Restricted" is accurate enough. Nothing is stopping the GM from waving the credit cost and making it the result of an adventure.

As for being able to buy and sell artefacts I get what you are saying however because these artefacts are illegal no sale of them is going to be above board, and so prices are essentially irrelevant as acquiring them would necessarily be part of an adventure anyway. You're also correct that you could very well find components, or even whole devices, with someone who has no idea of what they are but again, for the same reason I mentioned above, the price would be irrelevant.

This is why there should be no cost listed. However, to the argument that the amount is there for comparative purposes I agree that this is a useful number during character creation so I would argue that Cr10K is an acceptable amount as far as this goes but I would remove the price from the lists and instead note this in the relevant section.

It's understood, it's just disagreed with. Not only is the credit cost not small, the game already contains a system to deal with its relative rarity. In fact, the only reason the base crystals are truly rare (based on EU sources) is BECAUSE it's the empire era. Otherwise it would just be something of an oddity.

This is a fair argument. I'm not saying you-and-others didn't understand, and I'm fine with disagreement. But TyrantAzrael's first question made it clear he didn't get the argument. I'm not trying to attack him, I'm just saying he started from a premise ("are you saying you can't sell crystals?") that wasn't even close.

Also, asserting that the GM can do whatever they want isn't really an answer for anything. Every thread in this forum could be answered that way.

I certainly respect, but do not necessarily agree with, the arguments that the rarity is a factor and that the cost was set to scale with comparative effectiveness. But I've already spoken to these. At this point I have no interest in repeating myself and dragging this thread further, I've said all I feel I need to say, so I'm not going to argue for it anymore.

By that credit equivalency logic, if a smuggler in the group owns a ship: the jedi should get 8 lightsabers, the driver a tank, and so on and so forth. I think FuriousGreg is right to call for a broader discussion about gear/credit equivalencies and the economy of stuff as a meta-game element.

The answer seems obvious - if someone starts off with something powerful, a ship, a saber, what have you - why doesn't it come with Obligation? Back in the olden days, a WEG smuggler would get a ship and a debt of 25K (or whatever) to a crime boss. Reasonable, justify the powerful piece of equipment and gives the GM plenty of story hooks to work with.

Why not the same thing here - you can start with a powerful piece of equipment, but you have to justify it somehow with some obligation (which, if executed correctly, can cost the players far more dearly than just a pile of credits).

By that credit equivalency logic, if a smuggler in the group owns a ship: the jedi should get 8 lightsabers, the driver a tank, and so on and so forth. I think FuriousGreg is right to call for a broader discussion about gear/credit equivalencies and the economy of stuff as a meta-game element.

The answer seems obvious - if someone starts off with something powerful, a ship, a saber, what have you - why doesn't it come with Obligation? Back in the olden days, a WEG smuggler would get a ship and a debt of 25K (or whatever) to a crime boss. Reasonable, justify the powerful piece of equipment and gives the GM plenty of story hooks to work with.

Why not the same thing here - you can start with a powerful piece of equipment, but you have to justify it somehow with some obligation (which, if executed correctly, can cost the players far more dearly than just a pile of credits).

You could argue that a Force Using PC comes with Obligation regardless as, unlike other PC types in the other two CRBs, they start being hunted by the Empire, and not for what they do but for what they are . It's also an Obligation they cannot pay off... unless they join the Empire of course.

Desslok, I agree that the Obligation Duty mechanic does a better job of representing the 'cost' of owning a lightsaber better than a credit or xp amount. Excellent idea.

Jedi will expect lightsaber owners to play by the Jedi team rules and other galactic citizens will respond with a range of reactions. All grist for the Narrator's mill.

Edited: Perhaps the Duty mechanic from AOR is more appropriate.

The whole point of the price is as a measure by which you can make sure the various characters start with about the same level of gear. I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept. Sure you can start people with differing amounts of gear if you want. But if the GM is trying to be fair to everyone they need to have a way to figure that out. Prices is the easiest way to do that.

I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept.

I understand the concept, I just think it's a poor excuse for one.

Why dont I like it? Because with price comes a marketplace, and with a marketplace comes players who'll turn around and pawn their saber for a big pile a credits.

The Obligation (actually, I like duty better, too) is the easier way to handle that without unfortunate the "I could put a down payment on 6000 FUX Sport Speeder after we kill Darth Fornicus and take his lightsaber!" thoughts that enviably follow.

"I could put a down payment on 6000 FUX Sport Speeder after we kill Darth Fornicus and take his lightsaber!"

I think that sort of thinking would definitely pile up the Conflict quickly. Of course, I'm not really sure what I'd make the focus of a Dark Side campaign anyway...

Why not the same thing here - you can start with a powerful piece of equipment, but you have to justify it somehow with some obligation (which, if executed correctly, can cost the players far more dearly than just a pile of credits).

For we of the Exalted Star Chamber, child's play. But to include this in the RAW means the Dev's would need to include the Obligation mechanic in F&D -- that's not going to happen.

Regarding the glowstick of Darth Lacivious: 1. the saber's going to be just as hot, if not hotter, when it's off -- pennies on the credit assuming you find a buyer willing to risk it being on the blood trail. See also, "Rifles, Stormtrooper, Sort-sales of." 2. the real prize will come from salvaging the crystal, which is a great way to introduce different/modded saber crystals to the party. A party of six means six hungry crystal-chambers to feed, so price becomes irrelevant because the party should be the best economic use of said items.

Why dont I like it? Because with price comes a marketplace, and with a marketplace comes players who'll turn around and pawn their saber for a big pile a credits.

The Obligation (actually, I like duty better, too) is the easier way to handle that without unfortunate the "I could put a down payment on 6000 FUX Sport Speeder after we kill Darth Fornicus and take his lightsaber!" thoughts that enviably follow.

I think for how rare a Sith/inquisitor opponent should be, I think that this could be an apt reward for such an item. Especially for an EotE character. Thematically it's a problem for Jedi characters to be hocking their sabers, but then at Knight level play if they don't want the saber, they could just opt for the 9K(or however much it is now) anyways.

More likely they'll keep the saber as a back-up(For cortosis weapons and such). I know that's what my players in Saga did anyways, our Bothan Jedi has like 20 Sabers by the end of things.

More likely they'll keep the saber as a back-up(For cortosis weapons and such). I know that's what my players in Saga did anyways, our Bothan Jedi has like 20 Sabers by the end of things.

Understandable: SAGA sabers were woefully underpowered -- a melee weapon that does 2/3 the damage of a rifle is just a souvenir for the kids back home.

Understandable: SAGA sabers were woefully underpowered -- a melee weapon that does 2/3 the damage of a rifle is just a souvenir for the kids back home.

That said, I wouldn't dare call Saga balanced(Martial Artists were simply good for no reason at all), but I would cite that even they had a price for sabers, considerably less than the 10k FaD has, IIRC.

SAGA was era-neutral. If you're playing F&D in TOR, yes, sabers should be less than 10K...

The price is useful for starting, but no way would I ever allow a player to simply roll to find one and then buy a crystal. There would always be an adventure for it (or a few scenes at least).

Thing to remember though, is players like their shinies. And if you restrict them too much, they will resent you for it - they already worked hard for the credits. I prefer to enjoy the stories rather than doing all the shopping in uptime, hence we tend to do downtime shopping after a session's rewards (cash and XP) to quickly tidy up things for mundaneish items. The negotiation / streetwise rolls sometimes even generate the plot hooks for next week's story ;-)

I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept.

I understand the concept, I just think it's a poor excuse for one.

Then what is your solution that is KISS that gives a means for a GM who wants to make sure their knight level players are starting with the same value of gear? Especially given that every other gear has a price for it in place already.

I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept.

I understand the concept, I just think it's a poor excuse for one.

Then what is your solution that is KISS that gives a means for a GM who wants to make sure their knight level players are starting with the same value of gear? Especially given that every other gear has a price for it in place already.

I already said this. Once more: give Jedi a lightsaber or 10K of gear, and give everyone else 10K of gear. What's so difficult? Seems pretty KISS to me.

Well all well and good but the problem comes when you want to vary things like This crystal is not the same power level and they want to use it. How do I measure its value versus everyone elses gear? Having prices for the crystals gives a yardstick by which to measure.

I don't think that yardstick is necessary. Didn't need it for deciding, back in the day, who got the Boots of Speed and who got the Vorpal Blade either...the necessity and effectiveness were based on story and character needs, not a price list.

I don't think that yardstick is necessary. Didn't need it for deciding, back in the day, who got the Boots of Speed and who got the Vorpal Blade either...the necessity and effectiveness were based on story and character needs, not a price list.

Perhaps YOU don't need it. But some GMs might want it. Some GMs might find such things helpful. Far better to give players and GMs more info than they need than to give them too little. They are not writing the game just for you. The information is especially useful in doing when doing non starting level characters. It allows a GM to specify a credit level which may not necessarily be the one suggested in the knight level game. by having the price levels it allows a player to have a non ilum crystal based lightsaber. But may not allow a Krayt Pearl based crystal. or maybe the GM allows enough credits for a Krayt based pearl. Having prices allows a GM to set the dial. And not have to micromanage character equipment purchases.

The information is especially useful for newer less experienced GMs.

The information is especially useful for newer less experienced GMs.

Less experienced GMs might think they WANT this, but I believe it’s a crutch. Moreover, I believe it’s a badly placed crutch.

One Jedi that we know of was given a lightsaber. Only one.

All the others had to go find or make the parts necessary to build it themselves. This is a rite of passage, and even if you’re doing what is called "Knight Level Play" (which I think is really more Padawan Level Play), I believe that it’s best for the PCs to go through this rite of passage as PCs — not have it handed to them on a silver platter.

Lightsabers and lightsaber crystals should be beyond the ability of any PC to just buy or have given to them. There should be a whole adventure wrapped up in the process of acquiring one.

Taking that out of the equation, you no longer have to have so much money available to all the other players in order to "make things equal/fair". You can instead choose a more reasonable amount that helps better maintain the game balance.

Of course, those who choose to play a Jedi would have to trust the GM that they’re going to go very soon on their adventure to acquire a lightsaber or at least a lightsaber crystal. But it shouldn’t be there on Day One.

So explain to me why something that starting characters have a couple of game sessions in if ou go by the example in the sample adventure is not something a character with 150 XP does not have?

And again this is a book written for many people. Not just you.

Perhaps YOU don't need it. But some GMs might want it. Some GMs might find such things helpful. Far better to give players and GMs more info than they need than to give them too little.

Well, gee, as I've been told before, as the GM you can do whatever you need to do. Ah...the tables are turned...

And why would they need it anyway? I think something that emphasizes telling good stories rather than relying on a price list would be more useful.

I really need to bow out of this. You aren't saying anything new or convincing. We'll just have to agree to disagree.